20517 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 03 May 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

it's already the best option for IS omni assault

It's not like there is much competition until the WoB unveils its Celestials: Sunder, Templar and Hauptmann (unless I forgot one).

The Sunder is quite bad. Just 41 tons of podspace is the price you pay for having that speed, and I doubt it does it much good given its bad geometry. The STs stand out too much, I think. The arms are not terribly bad at shielding but not very good either.
The Templar has the same speed, better geometry and loads more weapons (44 tons). It does have a little drawback though: the left arm never mounts a ballistic hardpoint (with the exception of the Hero-Mech). If you want to do dual gauss you have to use the Hero (p2w?) or accept mounting them in the ST with the XL. It is not a big drawback but I felt I should mention it.
The Hauptmann suffers badly from not having ES, and it is very slow. It does not have that much podspace either, 45 tons. However all the available critspace allows using hot and bulky weapons, as you can add many DHS. (Stuff like 2x HPPC, 2x SNPPC, 22 DHS and ECM might turn out nice).

So yes, the Templar is probably the best of the bunch, while I think the Sunder is the worst.

Regarding their role in the BT canon - yes, this matters to me a lot - all of them are pretty good, but Templar and Hauptmann have the distinction of being piloted by legends of the franchise: Ardan Sortek and Nondi Steiner, in the age of 73 and 86! They are especially important for the FCCW, so the Sunder loses on that front too.

To be honest, I would have expected some loyalist vs allied pack, and this kind of pack would be perfect with Hauptmann on the one side and Templar on the other.

Edited by FLG 01, 03 May 2017 - 04:45 PM.

[Sereglach]

FLG 01, on 03 May 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Regarding their role in the BT canon - yes, this matters to me a lot - all of them are pretty good, but Templar and Hauptmann have the distinction of being piloted by legends of the franchise: Ardan Sortek and Nondi Steiner, in the age of 73 and 86! They are especially important for the FCCW, so the Sunder loses on that front too.

Hey! The Sunder was piloted by someone incredibly important. Tanisha Brown and her Samual configuration were legen . . . err . . . well . . . that is to say . . . she was basically a war criminal, but that's irrelevant. The Sunder still has an awesome Hero mech possibility that is utterly LOADED with hardpoints (5E, 6M, and 12B) that are spread relatively even around the mech, allowing a lot of flexibility.

While I don't care for most assault mechs in general, but at least the Hero of the Sunder has a setup I can get behind; and once you start mixing and matching omnipods it could become quite devastating with many configuration options.

[Odanan]

Sereglach, on 03 May 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

Hey! The Sunder was piloted by someone incredibly important. Tanisha Brown and her Samual configuration were legen . . . err . . . well . . . that is to say . . . she was basically a war criminal, but that's irrelevant. The Sunder still has an awesome Hero mech possibility that is utterly LOADED with hardpoints (5E, 6M, and 12B) that are spread relatively even around the mech, allowing a lot of flexibility.

While I don't care for most assault mechs in general, but at least the Hero of the Sunder has a setup I can get behind; and once you start mixing and matching omnipods it could become quite devastating with many configuration options.

Wow, that hero Sunder is insane!

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 03 May 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Wow, that hero Sunder is insane!

The configuration killed enough infantry within a short stint to be considered a war crime. Supposedly at the behest of her commander, Tanisha went into combat with 4 Flamers, 1 ERPPC, 6xSRM4s (all loaded with inferno rounds), and 12xMGs to wreak absolute havoc. Needless to say I love the configuration and it holds a special place in this pyro's heart . . . war criminal or not.

In the MWO world that thing would probably be angry and dangerous. The screams of P2W would also probably cry out as well, considering it has so many more hardpoints than any other configuration.

[Karl Streiger]

Metus regem, on 03 May 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Good question as to what happened to the Templar II....

OK think I've got two options:

Its strange Davion math because 3>2 the model designation is TLR-2O. So its the 2nd model
They just followed the wording of JaegerMech III and Enforcer III (although there wasn't some real upgrade)

The second option - could be the MW4 Templar - with 2 Large X Pulse Lasers and two Gauss Rifles (both in arms) not possible with the slot numbers for the CBT version - you need to increase the omni pod size and this would be a violation of build rules.

Neither TLR1 nor TLR2 use FerroFibrous - the only "templar" like mech using (kind of) both is the heavier Pendragon with Composite (no slot IS ES derivative) and FerroFibrous

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 May 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[Odanan]

Talking about metamechs VS nostalgia, take a look at this pool (and give your vote before reading the rest of the post).

Let's analyse the most voted mechs:

Spoiler

IS Lights:

• Hollander - can't be any good in this game, but was in MechCommander 1, MechCommander 2 and in MWLL (even if it was always the 45 tons "Hollander II" version).
  
• Osiris - was in MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Owens - omnimech with locked Single Heat Sinks! but hey, it was in MW3 and MW4:M.
  
• Wasp - one of the original 14 Battletech mechs.

IS Mediums:

• Hellspawn - was in MW4.
  
• Men Shen - was in MechCommander 2 and it's probably the best IS omnimech out there.
  
• Dervish - classic Introductory Battletech Box mech.
  
• Chimera - MW4 and MWLL.

IS Heavies.

• Thanatos - MW4 (and MWLL) mech with a great lead in the pool (even thought, because of the C3, it may never come to MWO)
  
• Crusader - one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.
  
• Avatar - MW3, MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Argus - MW4.

IS Assaults:

• Fafnir - MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Marauder II - a 100 tons version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs (as if we don't have enough Marauders yet).
  
• Sunder - MW3 and MW4.
  
• Longbow - not one of the 14 original Battletech mechs, but came shortly after. And was in MW4:M.

Clan Lights:

• Fire Moth - MW2, MW2:M (the last of the classic 16 Clan omnimechs not in MWO yet)
  
• Piranha - not in any videogame, but could be insane (broken) in MWO.
  
• Locust IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.
  
• Hellion - totally obscure, but actually a very interesting light omnimech.

Clan Mediums:

• Black Lanner - questionable performance in MWO (I think it has a niche, like the Linebacker), but was in MW4:M (Mekpak) and MWLL.
  
• Arctic Wolf - obscure, but actually looks good.
  
• Shadow Hawk IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.
  
• Griffin IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.

Clan Heavies:

• Nova Cat - MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Rifleman IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs. And it was in MW2.
  
• Grizzly - MW2.
  
• Crossbow - not in any videogame and, seriously, Clan heavy with Std. Engine?

Clan Assaults:

• Blood Asp - the metamech itself. Also in MechCommander 2, MW4:M (Mekpak) and MWLL.
  
• Stone Rhino - MW2 and MW4 (Mekpak).
  
• Warhammer IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs. And it was in MW2.
  
• Phoenix Hawk IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.

As you can see, the majority of the top voted mechs came from a videogame or a tabletop box, even if there are better rounded alternatives.


Nostalgia, guys. It sells.

Edited by Odanan, 05 May 2017 - 05:23 AM.

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 05 May 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Talking about metamechs VS nostalgia, take a look at this pool (and give your vote before reading the rest of the post).

Let's analyse the most voted mechs:

Spoiler

IS Lights:

• Hollander - can't be any good in this game, but was in MechCommander 1, MechCommander 2 and in MWLL (even if it was always the 45 tons "Hollander II" version).
  
• Osiris - was in MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Owens - omnimech with locked Single Heat Sinks! but hey, it was in MW3 and MW4:M.
  
• Wasp - one of the original 14 Battletech mechs.

IS Mediums:

• Hellspawn - was in MW4.
  
• Men Shen - was in MechCommander 2 and it's probably the best IS omnimech out there.
  
• Dervish - classic Introductory Battletech Box mech.
  
• Chimera - MW4 and MWLL.

IS Heavies.

• Thanatos - MW4 (and MWLL) mech with a great lead in the pool (even thought, because of the C3, it may never come to MWO)
  
• Crusader - one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.
  
• Avatar - MW3, MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Argus - MW4.

IS Assaults:

• Fafnir - MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Marauder II - a 100 tons version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs (as if we don't have enough Marauders yet).
  
• Sunder - MW3 and MW4.
  
• Longbow - not one of the 14 original Battletech mechs, but came shortly after. And was in MW4:M.

Clan Lights:

• Fire Moth - MW2, MW2:M (the last of the classic 16 Clan omnimechs not in MWO yet)
  
• Piranha - not in any videogame, but could be insane (broken) in MWO.
  
• Locust IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.
  
• Hellion - totally obscure, but actually a very interesting light omnimech.

Clan Mediums:

• Black Lanner - questionable performance in MWO (I think it has a niche, like the Linebacker), but was in MW4:M (Mekpak) and MWLL.
  
• Arctic Wolf - obscure, but actually looks good.
  
• Shadow Hawk IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.
  
• Griffin IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.

Clan Heavies:

• Nova Cat - MW4 and MWLL.
  
• Rifleman IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs. And it was in MW2.
  
• Grizzly - MW2.
  
• Crossbow - not in any videogame and, seriously, Clan heavy with Std. Engine?

Clan Assaults:

• Blood Asp - the metamech itself. Also in MechCommander 2, MW4:M (Mekpak) and MWLL.
  
• Stone Rhino - MW2 and MW4 (Mekpak).
  
• Warhammer IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs. And it was in MW2.
  
• Phoenix Hawk IIC - the Clan version of one of the 14 original Battletech mechs.

As you can see, the majority of the top voted mechs came from a videogame or a tabletop box, even if there are better rounded alternatives.



Nostalgia, guys. It sells.

Nostalgia sells but meta gets played. Even the biggest nostalgia mechs disappear if they're total crap in game.

[Metus regem]

TheArisen, on 05 May 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Nostalgia sells but meta gets played. Even the biggest nostalgia mechs disappear if they're total crap in game.

*cough**cough*Archer*cough**cough*

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 05 May 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

*cough**cough*Archer*cough**cough*

Archer is not total crap!
Some friends* of my unit get great results with LRMs+SRMs builds.

*and I mean, tier 1 people.

Edited by Odanan, 05 May 2017 - 11:54 AM.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 05 May 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Archer is not total crap!
Some friends* of my unit get great results with LRMs+SRMs builds.

*and I mean, tier 1 people.

That's not saying much Odanan.... I use and get results in Vindicators, doesn't mean that the Vindicator is a good mech.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 05 May 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

That's not saying much Odanan.... I use and get results in Vindicators, doesn't mean that the Vindicator is a good mech.

Maybe you are the good pilot?

Anyway, I was thinking about the Templar... it could be a decent mech in MWO (with tiny side torsos and huge upper arm shields). It has ECM, optional jumjets, lots of hardpoints... You know what? I think PGI could do a special 4-mech pack with IS omnimechs.

Light: Raptor;
Medium: Men Shen (the real star of the pack);
Heavy: Avatar (also needs very carefully designed hardboxes);
Assault: Templar.

Edited by Odanan, 05 May 2017 - 02:04 PM.

[Virlutris]

Metus regem, on 05 May 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

That's not saying much Odanan.... I use and get results in Vindicators, doesn't mean that the Vindicator is a good mech.

Sad, but true.

Sometimes, these mechs are fun because of the level of sharpness required to do well in them.

[Bishop Steiner]

Virlutris, on 05 May 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

Sad, but true.

Sometimes, these mechs are fun because of the level of sharpness required to do well in them.

High skill floor is not a guaranteed indicator of low skill/performance ceiling.

Probably my biggest gripe about most gaming metas today is that the meta tends to have to do more often with what gives the best results for the least effort, than what might actually give the best results, but takes more effort.

I think if the old Street Fighter II circuits were played today, all the "Pros" would play the cheese like Chun Li, and the forums would be full of how only "Bads" use Ken or Ryu, because they took more skill to actually use well.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 05 May 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

Maybe you are the good pilot?

Naw, I'm very, very average, maybe even below average as a pilot in MWO. But I put the time in to be a good shot with the 'bad' weapons such as PPC's and AC/10's. Then again I try to play to a mech strengths, rather than my own... helps if I can find a mech they does well as a skirmisher.

Quote

Anyway, I was thinking about the Templar... it could be a decent mech in MWO (with tiny side torsos and huge upper arm shields). It has ECM, optional jumjets, lots of hardpoints... You know what? I think PGI could do a special 4-mech pack with IS omnimechs.

Light: Raptor;
Medium: Men Shen (the real star of the pack);
Heavy: Avatar (also needs very carefully designed hardboxes);
Assault: Templar.

I'm still not sold on the Avatar, I think the Nova Knock off (Black Hawk KU) could be slightly better as far as options go.... not to mention it wouldn't be in a flooded weight point like the Avatar.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 05 May 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

I'm still not sold on the Avatar, I think the Nova Knock off (Black Hawk KU) could be slightly better as far as options go.... not to mention it wouldn't be in a flooded weight point like the Avatar.

Black Hawk-KU. Now that's a knockoff.

[Virlutris]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 May 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

High skill floor is not a guaranteed indicator of low skill/performance ceiling.

Probably my biggest gripe about most gaming metas today is that the meta tends to have to do more often with what gives the best results for the least effort, than what might actually give the best results, but takes more effort.

I think if the old Street Fighter II circuits were played today, all the "Pros" would play the cheese like Chun Li, and the forums would be full of how only "Bads" use Ken or Ryu, because they took more skill to actually use well.

I don't think I disagree with the floor/ceiling bit as you've framed it.

I'd elaborate that some mechs, like the Vindy, are a hard sell because they are not "optimized for max return on effort." Work hard, and they'll do a little work for you, and it'll feel good. I wasn't being terribly careful to qualify my statements there for maximum clarity.

To run with your line of thought, certain variants of the Hunchback IIC are beloved by the comp community, who love optimization. And they're super squishy and require you to be always aware and moving or twisting under threat that you'll wilt under enemy fire if enemy mechs take too keen an interest in you. They also bring a bunch of firepower and a ClanTech™ XL. Middl-ish floor, high ceiling, perhaps?

Vindys are more fragile, with lower mounts and less firepower. Probably safe to say they've got a higher floor and lower ceiling than the Hunch IIC, but most are more than useable enough to make the challenge of running them fun.

SIB on the other hand is the poster child for high floor, and low ceiling. There's probably not enough clearance in that room for more than a belly crawl. (at least for me, it's my Hard Mode mech) SIB is my definitive "sad but true" exemplar.

[Bishop Steiner]

Virlutris, on 05 May 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

I don't think I disagree with the floor/ceiling bit as you've framed it.

I'd elaborate that some mechs, like the Vindy, are a hard sell because they are not "optimized for max return on effort." Work hard, and they'll do a little work for you, and it'll feel good. I wasn't being terribly careful to qualify my statements there for maximum clarity.

To run with your line of thought, certain variants of the Hunchback IIC are beloved by the comp community, who love optimization. And they're super squishy and require you to be always aware and moving or twisting under threat that you'll wilt under enemy fire if enemy mechs take too keen an interest in you. They also bring a bunch of firepower and a ClanTech™ XL. Middl-ish floor, high ceiling, perhaps?

Vindys are more fragile, with lower mounts and less firepower. Probably safe to say they've got a higher floor and lower ceiling than the Hunch IIC, but most are more than useable enough to make the challenge of running them fun.

SIB on the other hand is the poster child for high floor, and low ceiling. There's probably not enough clearance in that room for more than a belly crawl. (at least for me, it's my Hard Mode mech) SIB is my definitive "sad but true" exemplar.

I'd agree...being tough to use does not make something into a master's tool, either, you are right. Sometimes, bad is, simply bad.

[SuperFunkTron]

So I was playing the Battletech Card game a few days ago and I think that would be a great source for not only upcoming mechs but also another way to help with faction specific mechs. It was really nice having faction affiliation factor in to available mechs and also giving an idea of what types of mechs to expect. It didn't give any sort of unfair advantage but forced me to come up with multiple strategies to address those mechs but also how the game unfolded. I know it's still going to be a while before PGI gets through the Civil War addition and balancing, but I really hope that they start to prioritize faction differentiation soon after. This generic clan vs IS thing is the single most (non-technical) prominent issue leading to a monotonous feel.

[Odanan]

SuperFunkTron, on 07 May 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

So I was playing the Battletech Card game a few days ago and I think that would be a great source for not only upcoming mechs but also another way to help with faction specific mechs. It was really nice having faction affiliation factor in to available mechs and also giving an idea of what types of mechs to expect. It didn't give any sort of unfair advantage but forced me to come up with multiple strategies to address those mechs but also how the game unfolded. I know it's still going to be a while before PGI gets through the Civil War addition and balancing, but I really hope that they start to prioritize faction differentiation soon after. This generic clan vs IS thing is the single most (non-technical) prominent issue leading to a monotonous feel.

I love this game (and have a quite big collection).

PS: Fenris (Ice Ferret) is OP!

[Virlutris]

Odanan, on 07 May 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

I love this game (and have a quite big collection).

PS: Fenris (Ice Ferret) is OP!

Some of the nastier Ferret builds will only get better. That 1E torso will make the 6 SPL "Ultimate Dogfighter" a reality. 5 SPL already does great work.

On a different ClanTech note:

I was just trawling Sarna today and thinking that lots of IIC mechs will now be available because of the tech update.

I'm looking forward to the Griffin IIC myself, because reasons.

There's a bunch that could be very capable performers for several reasons. That Shadow Hawk IIC might be an especially nasty fast splat mech, among other possibilities. The PXH IIC amuses me, and the lights make me want to dust off my villain's cackle. >:3