20517 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

SMDMadCow, on 07 July 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

Iconic can be debatable, but I'm not sure many would agree any of those are. Especially the remaining unseen (talking assault here); Goliath is a quad - so its out, Longbow - lol no, Mad II - not as iconic as the Marauder, more like a foot note.
Maybe folks who played Mechwarrior 4(?) might recognize the Fafnir, but its not as iconic as the Zeus.
The Iconic IS assaults are already in game, Atlas and Battlemaster, those have literally been symbols of the franchise.
The only thing more Iconic is the clan Timberwolf - it's like the Dallas Cowboys Star of giant robots; everyone knows it.

The Fafnir & Templar are thee signature mechs of Steiner & Davion during the fedcom. They might not be on the Atlas or Timber Wolf's level but they're important. Iconic has been overused but my point stands, the most popular/voted for mechs aren't always chosen.

[SMDMadCow]

Tarogato, on 07 July 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

Whew, finished my list of all variants that aren't in the game. I'll be writing a proper post on this and dedicated thread, but for now... you can peruse: https://docs.google....t#gid=928478927











*actually had to google "dallas cowboys star" *

*still didn't get it, never saw that before, not a football fan*






Your argument right now:

Cute.

[Odanan]

Tarogato, on 07 July 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

Your argument right now:

Reporting: disturbing imagery. Oh wait, that must be only in my mind.
Stop messing with my mind!

[Tarogato]

Odanan, on 08 July 2017 - 04:54 AM, said:

Reporting: disturbing imagery. Oh wait, that must be only in my mind.
Stop messing with my mind!

You have any idea how hard it is to find a gif related to something not holding water? Bloody hard! I was so disappointed. But I couldn't *not* attempt some form of dank gif-ness...

[xVLFBERHxT]

TheArisen, on 07 July 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

How about the Canis?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Canis

Wakazashi
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wakazashi

Jupiter
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jupiter

Scylla
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Scylla

JUPITER!

For me THE dark age mech!

[SMDMadCow]

Tarogato, on 08 July 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

You have any idea how hard it is to find a gif related to something not holding water? Bloody hard! I was so disappointed. But I couldn't *not* attempt some form of dank gif-ness...

I probably should have used Coca Cola or Nike as the example, the star was the first thing that came to mind at the moment.
Though, I must say I'm impressed you can get internet service through the rock you live under ;-P

[Odanan]

Shake it baby!

[TheArisen]

The Clans love their Night gyr and Mad IIC but I was wondering why more people don't ask for the Black Python?
http://www.sarna.net...k_Python_(Viper)

Quite simply, this would probably be the best mech in the game or at least tied for best. It's basically a Bmech TWolf with better geo, non-locked JJ and ECM. It's #4 variant could be like a Clan BK but with high mounts & JJ. No missiles but that just let's it focus it's loadout on weapons with good synergy.

In lore it's a second line mech but it seems much too powerful for that.

Edited by TheArisen, 10 July 2017 - 07:17 PM.

[Sereglach]

TheArisen, on 10 July 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

The Clans love their Night gyr and Mad IIC but I was wondering why more people don't ask for the Black Python?
http://www.sarna.net...k_Python_(Viper)

Quite simply, this would probably be the best mech in the game or at least tied for best. It's basically a Bmech TWolf with better geo, non-locked JJ and ECM. It's #4 variant could be like a Clan BK but with high mounts & JJ. No missiles but that just let's it focus it's loadout on weapons with good synergy.

In lore it's a second line mech but it seems much too powerful for that.

Remember that in lore Battlemechs are much more expensive -and take much more time- to maintain and repair. This makes most Battlemech chassis second line for the Clans. That's not even touching on the costs and time to customize a Battlemech vs. an Omnimech, especially if you'd like to run a specific configuration for a given battle scenario. Sure, in MWO terms the thing would be a beast, but you're not thinking of those TT RPG/Campaign issues that MWO doesn't need to consider.

There are many solid Clan mechs that are second line in TT; and it pretty much always comes down to the fact that Omnimechs are easy to repair, maintain, and can change configurations on the fly to meet combat situational needs.

To also answer your question about why people aren't asking for the mech: As a tie-in to the popularity and nostalgia discussion, regardless of whether they're awesome mechs or not, the second line mechs aren't mentioned anywhere near as much in lore or gameplay materails. Thus they're not as well known and not as popular. Even if it's an awesome mech, if people don't know it exists or know much about it then they're not going to even know that they'd want it.

[Odanan]

Sereglach, on 10 July 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Remember that in lore Battlemechs are much more expensive -and take much more time- to maintain and repair. This makes most Battlemech chassis second line for the Clans. That's not even touching on the costs and time to customize a Battlemech vs. an Omnimech, especially if you'd like to run a specific configuration for a given battle scenario. Sure, in MWO terms the thing would be a beast, but you're not thinking of those TT RPG/Campaign issues that MWO doesn't need to consider.

There are many solid Clan mechs that are second line in TT; and it pretty much always comes down to the fact that Omnimechs are easy to repair, maintain, and can change configurations on the fly to meet combat situational needs.

To also answer your question about why people aren't asking for the mech: As a tie-in to the popularity and nostalgia discussion, regardless of whether they're awesome mechs or not, the second line mechs aren't mentioned anywhere near as much in lore or gameplay materails. Thus they're not as well known and not as popular. Even if it's an awesome mech, if people don't know it exists or know much about it then they're not going to even know that they'd want it.

This. ^

But yes, the Black Python would be a beast. Maybe too good actually. And who wouldn't want to see what Alex Iglesias can do with its looks?

[FLG 01]

The Black Python could be Alex's masterpiece because translating this design to MWO-aesthetics looks certainly promissing.

The Mech itself is a beast. All its TT-strengths are emphasized in MWO, all its weaknesses meaningless. In TT is a duellist with insane BV (higher than some Dire Wolf variants), and it's doing that really well. I am sure it would be the same in MWO, minus the BV and heat problems.

As far as it being a second line Mech... back then, FASA had the idea that certain Mechs would be duelling Mechs rather than general combat Mechs, and those would be in the second line rather than in the invasion force. The Vapor Eagle is the prime example, but the Black Python goes by the same philosophy; Incubus and some others too. Garrison combat, apparently, was different and often solved in duels. In way that makes sense; think about the dual UAC/20 on the Hunchback IIC.

Edited by FLG 01, 11 July 2017 - 05:28 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

FLG 01, on 07 July 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

Is the Hollander (currently the leading light IS Mech iirc) really popular or even iconic? I have a much harder time understanding the Hollander's lead. And if it is so popular, should be prioritized despite it offering nothing new, and despite it probably being rather bad in MWO?

Hollander was in Mech Commander that's why.
And I gonna buy for that reason alone regardless if its good or bad in MWO.

[SMDMadCow]

Sereglach, on 10 July 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Remember that in lore Battlemechs are much more expensive

Everything else you said was spot on, but this is misinformation. I don't know if it was a typo or whatever, but Omnimechs are ALWAYS more expensive. Just take a look at the Black Python vs Timberwolf; both are 75 tons, use the same XL engine, endo steel, Ferro armor, double sinks. The Black Python is only 18 million while the Timberwolf is 24. Everything else being equal, variable payload is worth about 6 million at 75 tons.

On the TT the thing is a cheese course drowned in fondue. The pulse and TC combo let's it jump and fire with no effective penalty or take aimed headshots with little issue. I have no doubt that it would become a top mech in no time here.

[Sereglach]

SMDMadCow, on 11 July 2017 - 06:17 AM, said:

Everything else you said was spot on, but this is misinformation. I don't know if it was a typo or whatever, but Omnimechs are ALWAYS more expensive.

It's still spot on because you're not taking the whole sentence: "Remember that in lore Battlemechs are much more expensive -and take much more time- to maintain and repair." I'm not talking about upfront cost. I'll fully agree and acknowledge that Omnimechs have a much higher upfront cost. However, I'm talking about maintenance, repairs, and later also mention customization. The labor costs over time can get insane for Battlemechs (let alone the customization costs), just as the extra time taken on Battlemechs vs. Omnimechs can be painful as well. This all becomes even more apparent if you're trying to maintain the aggressive warfare styles and high op-tempo that the Clans have. These are reasons why the Clans would rather pay the higher upfront cost and have lower long-term costs for Omnimechs over Battlemechs as their front line units.

[SMDMadCow]

Sereglach, on 11 July 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

It's still spot on because you're not taking the whole sentence: "Remember that in lore Battlemechs are much more expensive -and take much more time- to maintain and repair." I'm not talking about upfront cost. I'll fully agree and acknowledge that Omnimechs have a much higher upfront cost. However, I'm talking about maintenance, repairs, and later also mention customization. The labor costs over time can get insane for Battlemechs (let alone the customization costs), just as the extra time taken on Battlemechs vs. Omnimechs can be painful as well. This all becomes even more apparent if you're trying to maintain the aggressive warfare styles and high op-tempo that the Clans have. These are reasons why the Clans would rather pay the higher upfront cost and have lower long-term costs for Omnimechs over Battlemechs as their front line units.

Except you're forgetting that the word 'Omni' commands a premium surcharge on anything it touches:
Pod mounted weapons cost more, omni comparable components cost more, even labor costs more because omni rated technicians cost significantly more to hire (worth their weight in gold during the Invasion).
As for customization, a stock Marauder 4R costs 6 million, you can customize the hell out of that thing and still probably afford 2 for every Timberwolf.
Yes, omni hold the advantage in downtime. It's great for when you're on planet but the advantage is mostly lost when planet hopping due to system transit time.

Let me pose a question: If not for the costs involved, why would the Davion Quartermaster deny the Omni-Thanatos for purchase, but approve the Thanatos battlemech?

Edited by SMDMadCow, 11 July 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SMDMadCow, on 11 July 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Except you're forgetting that the word 'Omni' commands a premium surcharge on anything it touches:
Pod mounted weapons cost more, omni comparable components cost more, even labor costs more because omni rated technicians cost significantly more to hire (worth their weight in gold during the Invasion).
As for customization, a stock Marauder 4R costs 6 million, you can customize the hell out of that thing and still probably afford 2 for every Timberwolf.
Yes, omni hold the advantage in downtime. It's great for when you're on planet but the advantage is mostly lost when planet hopping due to system transit time.

Let me pose a question: If not for the costs involved, why would the Davion Quartermaster deny the Omni-Thanatos for purchase, but approve the Thanatos battlemech?

When does the Military Industrial Complex EVER make sense. Just look at the US defense expenditures for most of the last 30 years (plenty before that too, but good god the last 10-15 years have been a masterclass in incompetence)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 July 2017 - 10:04 AM.

[SMDMadCow]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 July 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

When does the Military Industrial Complex EVER make sense. Just look at the US defense expenditures for most of the last 30 years (plenty before that too, but good god the last 10-15 years have been a masterclass in incompetence)

When it's fiction written by a civilian?

[CK16]

Yea as much as I love military science frustrating to read some of the cool stuff get canceled and the idiotic kept alive

RAH-66 Comanche
M-8 Buford
Sea Wolf
I mean it's sad to see the F-35 price climbing (I mainly blame that they keep adding requirements every week to its list....)

Or retirement of good aircraft early RIP F-111.....

I do not know the whole story but bet it's more politics with hands in the money then anything hurting alot of the budget.

Edited by CK16, 11 July 2017 - 01:04 PM.

[Metus regem]

CK16, on 11 July 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Yea as much as I love military science frustrating to read some of the cool stuff get canceled and the idiotic kept Alice

RAH-66 Comanche
M-8 Buffed
Sea Wolf
I mean it's sad to see the F-35 price climbing (I mainly blame that they keep adding requirements every week to it list....)

Or retirement of good aircraft early RIP F-111.....

I do not know the whole story but bet it's more politics with hands in the money then anything hurting alot of the budget.

F-35 = Boondoggle....

Some of the USAF arguments I've heard for replacing the A-10 with it include using B-1B... I mean a freaking strategic bomber for C.A.S.?!?!

The sad part about the F-35, to be able to do the jobs of the air-craft it is replacing has to give up it's stealth characteristics to do it by mounting external payload... The variant that has an internal cannon has something around 182 rounds for it... or it can have 220 rounds in the external version that is pod mounted with 'stealth features'... Didn't the US military learn anything from the F-4 Phantom during the early part of the Vietnam war... having a cannon on a fighter is a good idea...

There really needs to be an XTRO: Pre-jumpship boondoggles... perfect place to put the F-35 and a few others.

[Bishop Steiner]

SMDMadCow, on 11 July 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

When it's fiction written by a civilian?

plot armor ftw.....