1236 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Well, they eventually fixed the Awesome a bit, so there is hope. It took about 10,000 posts and meanwhile lots of players asserting their personal stats proved the Awesome was fine, no fix needed, but it had obvious problems just like the Summoner does.

Builds, well the single Gauss is gone with the 5.5 second recharge plus a charge-up phase, it's just too much nerf to be worth the weight and I would always choose ASRMs over SSRMs.

[Mister Blastman]

Deathlike, on 19 November 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Well... I think the Summoner agility-wise will survive the efficiencies change/nerf.

It'll easily become the most agile Clan Heavy... but I'm not sure if that'll make a difference in its overall status.

The agility is nice but I agree, I don't think it will make a difference.

I just need to click, then win in my Wubshee. I can't do that in the Suckoner™.

[Lugh]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 21 December 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Unlocking Endo and Ferro would make the Hellbringer scary as mother nature. And it would buff some hurting chassis like the Gargoyle, Nova, and Summoner.

The trifecta would neither gain nor lose as the Stormbro and Timbergod already have both Endo and Ferro and the Whale wouldn't benefit from either because already has 50 tons of weight to play with and what it needs are crits.

And a MUCH bigger engine. Which 50 Tons will take care of for you right there....

[Ghogiel]

Deathlike, on 19 November 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Well... I think the Summoner agility-wise will survive the efficiencies change/nerf.

It'll easily become the most agile Clan Heavy... but I'm not sure if that'll make a difference in its overall status.

It's getting a big nerf in the form of CXL changes. I think it's build diversity is getting rekt> going to be relegated to being a SRM boat.

Much sadness.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Lugh, on 19 November 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

And a MUCH bigger engine. Which 50 Tons will take care of for you right there....

That's a scary thought, since if you took one of the current popular gigaspike whale builds and dropped the LPLs to ERMLs, shifted some parts around, and dropped 1/4 of armor from each leg like this, you'd have the tonnage to run an XL350 and 25 DHS.

That's a scary thought... 72 pinpoint moving along at 62kph?

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 19 November 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 19 November 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

The agility is nice but I agree, I don't think it will make a difference.

I just need to click, then win in my Wubshee. I can't do that in the Suckoner™.

of course, doesn't that point to the real issue...mechs like Wubshee, DWF and other 1 Click Wins being OP as crap thanks to poor choices in aiming and combat mechanics?

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

of course, doesn't that point to the real issue...mechs like Wubshee, DWF and other 1 Click Wins being OP as crap thanks to poor choices in aiming and combat mechanics?

Precisely.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

of course, doesn't that point to the real issue...mechs like Wubshee, DWF and other 1 Click Wins being OP as crap thanks to poor choices in aiming and combat mechanics?

Imagine if they ghost heated all lasers together.

[FupDup]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 19 November 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

Imagine if they ghost heated all lasers together.

Gauss Vomit lives on.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 19 November 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Gauss Vomit lives on.

Gauss Vomit sans lasers becomes much less effective. 5.5 second cooldown gauss vomit sanas lightsaber crutch?

Might be on life support.

Of course, Gauss was always the posterchild for bad Battletech design. Super range, minimal explosive risk, next to no heat, second highest PP damage in the game. Which is why it dominated in TT, too.

Not only broke as heck, but judging by the navy's railgun tests, just wrong, period.... as you don't generate this kind of a plasma cloud on a "no heat" weapon.

Aka, jus tlike the propellant charge in the chamber and barrel of an AC, so to, would this heat transfer to a mech.

It always should have had heat similar to the AC20, maybe even a little higher, as it having 2.5x the range of the AC20 already more than compensated for it only delivery 3/4 the damage. Even generating say 8 heat, it would have been a good weapon, and in fact a lot closer to balanced. Probably should have been the same weight as the AC20 though, and then it's lower crits (which also makes no real sense, as the system of a Gauss is actually quite bulky) would still have made it a bargain.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 November 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Gauss Vomit sans lasers becomes much less effective. 5.5 second cooldown gauss vomit sanas lightsaber crutch?

Might be on life support.

Of course, Gauss was always the posterchild for bad Battletech design. Super range, minimal explosive risk, next to know heat, second highest PP damage in the game. Which is why it dominated in TT, too.

Not only broke as heck, but judging by the navy's railgun tests, just wrong, period.... as you don't generate this kind of a plasma cloud on a "no heat" weapon.

Aka, jus tlike the propellant charge in the chamber and barrel of an AC, so to, would this heat transfer to a mech.

It always should have had heat similar to the AC20, maybe even a little higher, as it having 2.5x the range of the AC20 already more than compensated for it only delivery 3/4 the damage. Even generating say 8 heat, it would have been a good weapon, and in fact a lot closer to balanced. Probably should have been the same weight as the AC20 though, and then it's lower crits (which also makes no real sense, as the system of a Gauss is actually quite bulky) would still have made it a bargain.

Gauss Vomit can't be sans lasers, because the "vomit" half of the term refers to lasers. At least, that's the way GMan and others have defined it. Gauss boated by itself isn't really Gauss Vomit, you need a brace of lasers to qualify (e.g. 5-6 ERML + Gauss TBR is "Gauss Vomit").

Adding some base heat to the gun would be fine, with more heat on the Clam version perhaps. Neither should get near the heat of a Large Laser or PPC (no higher than 5-6), but more than 1 heat would help.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Gauss Vomit sans lasers becomes much less effective. 5.5 second cooldown gauss vomit sanas lightsaber crutch?

Might be on life support.

Of course, Gauss was always the posterchild for bad Battletech design. Super range, minimal explosive risk, next to no heat, second highest PP damage in the game. Which is why it dominated in TT, too.

Not only broke as heck, but judging by the navy's railgun tests, just wrong, period.... as you don't generate this kind of a plasma cloud on a "no heat" weapon.

Aka, jus tlike the propellant charge in the chamber and barrel of an AC, so to, would this heat transfer to a mech.

It always should have had heat similar to the AC20, maybe even a little higher, as it having 2.5x the range of the AC20 already more than compensated for it only delivery 3/4 the damage. Even generating say 8 heat, it would have been a good weapon, and in fact a lot closer to balanced. Probably should have been the same weight as the AC20 though, and then it's lower crits (which also makes no real sense, as the system of a Gauss is actually quite bulky) would still have made it a bargain.

Coilgun/Railgun tech is funny like that. Which is why traditional ballistics aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Rail/Coilguns require huge capacitor banks that generate metric fucktons of waste heat. Then add in the heat friction of the projectile due to the insane velocity? Even more heat. Unlike a traditional ballistic where the heat from the cannon never transfers to the vehicle (completely unlike BT), the existence of the electrical systems and capacitor banks within the vehicle generates heat AND the gun itself generates heat.

Also, it really irks me that in the BT art, this is the Gauss:


While this is the AC:


Because it's straight up backwards...

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 19 November 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Gauss Vomit can't be sans lasers, because the "vomit" half of the term refers to lasers. At least, that's the way GMan and others have defined it. Gauss boated by itself isn't really Gauss Vomit, you need a brace of lasers to qualify (e.g. 5-6 ERML + Gauss TBR is "Gauss Vomit").

Adding some base heat to the gun would be fine, with more heat on the Clam version perhaps. Neither should get near the heat of a Large Laser or PPC (no higher than 5-6), but more than 1 heat would help.

5-6 heat, 5.5 second cooldown, would probably be pretty close to giving some realistic balance.

Especially since coding a powerhog priority into the game is probably too much for PGI to handle...

"Instead of letting loose with everything, the Clansman had carefully triggered one Gauss rifle and then the other. He's taken the name of his 'Mech to heart. This is not to be a slaughter. He intends it to be an execution.

A fragment of something he'd heard suddenly hurtled forward into Phelan's consciousness, and it was as though a blindfold had been torn from his eyes. "Vlad isn't in control. Natasha warned me about the power requirements for a Gauss rifle. Vlad hit the triggers for everything in his first shot. He's got the Gauss rifles set up as his primary weapons, so they get first crack at the power from his fusion engines!""

They SHOULD program a delay where Gauss fired in an alpha takes priority, and all the secondary weapons are delayed a solid .5 second before there is enough ready power to fire them. (Well, according to battletech lore. The fact MWO Gauss use a capacitor that can explode...yet still need a charge up is laughably bad "science" (aka the capacitor in our version should only explode while it is charging and holding a charge), as well as ignoring that lasers would use capacitor banks that precharge, too, and likely PPCs.)

[Deathlike]

Is it too much to ask for the Summoner-M for Christmas?

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

5-6 heat, 5.5 second cooldown, would probably be pretty close to giving some realistic balance.

Especially since coding a powerhog priority into the game is probably too much for PGI to handle...

"Instead of letting loose with everything, the Clansman had carefully triggered one Gauss rifle and then the other. He's taken the name of his 'Mech to heart. This is not to be a slaughter. He intends it to be an execution.

A fragment of something he'd heard suddenly hurtled forward into Phelan's consciousness, and it was as though a blindfold had been torn from his eyes. "Vlad isn't in control. Natasha warned me about the power requirements for a Gauss rifle. Vlad hit the triggers for everything in his first shot. He's got the Gauss rifles set up as his primary weapons, so they get first crack at the power from his fusion engines!""

They SHOULD program a delay where Gauss fired in an alpha takes priority, and all the secondary weapons are delayed a solid .5 second before there is enough ready power to fire them. (Well, according to battletech lore. The fact MWO Gauss use a capacitor that can explode...yet still need a charge up is laughably bad "science" (aka the capacitor in our version should only explode while it is charging and holding a charge), as well as ignoring that lasers would use capacitor banks that precharge, too, and likely PPCs.)

~3 heat for IS version and 5-6 for Clam version?

I personally kind of like the chargeup mechanic though... It makes the gun stick out in terms of how it's used compared to other guns. It's also pretty rewarding to start charging up before you see an enemy, peek around a corner, pop off the slug, and then get back behind the cover before they even figure out what happened. The Executioner's MASC is perfect for doing this.

The issue I see with only exploding while the charge is held is that it would make Goose explosions pretty rare, thus removing one of its weaknesses and key differences compared to other guns. How often does the gun get critted out while holding the charge? Probably not nearly as often as it does while the gun is reloading or not active at all.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 19 November 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

~3 heat for IS version and 5-6 for Clam version?

I personally kind of like the chargeup mechanic though... It makes the gun stick out in terms of how it's used compared to other guns. It's also pretty rewarding to start charging up before you see an enemy, peek around a corner, pop off the slug, and then get back behind the cover before they even figure out what happened. The Executioner's MASC is perfect for doing this.

The issue I see with only exploding while the charge is held is that it would make Goose explosions pretty rare, thus removing one of its weaknesses and key differences compared to other guns. How often does the gun get critted out while holding the charge? Probably not nearly as often as it does while the gun is reloading or not active at all.

I have no issue with the charge up, I'm simply pointing out that if we have a charge up, the Gauss capacitors should only be volatile during the time it's actually charged.

As For the differentiator between Clan and IS, personally, I'd give the clan version 1-2 pt more heat, .5 second more cooldown, and minus 300-500 m/s velocity.. Tradeoffs for lighter weight materials, shorter barrels, etc. 3 tons is a LOT of weight to gain for no tradeoffs.

And I think they need to have the third range bracket dropped across the board, IS and Clan. That extreme range and velocity is what really breaks things. But that's another story.

[Kin3ticX]

Its a good test candidate for deviating from the TRO cfgs and hardlocks. They could at least trade the ferro for endo but it wouldnt do much on its own. They could also drop the engine size 10-15 pts and then fill in the tonnage with ammo on the stock mechs.

Instead, tip toe around the issue and throw quirks at it.

It still brings up another problem though. Trying to close the power gap between the SMN and the TBR isn't exactly what I want to do either. The innersphere counterparts already struggle and often fail to match the firepower+speed+durability.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 19 November 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Is it too much to ask for the Summoner-M for Christmas?

That is a good point...how many Clam variants are left?

This is one of the few, but it's also been there from the start.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 November 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

I have no issue with the charge up, I'm simply pointing out that if we have a charge up, the Gauss capacitors should only be volatile during the time it's actually charged.

As For the differentiator between Clan and IS, personally, I'd give the clan version 1-2 pt more heat, .5 second more cooldown, and minus 300-500 m/s velocity.. Tradeoffs for lighter weight materials, shorter barrels, etc. 3 tons is a LOT of weight to gain for no tradeoffs.

And I think they need to have the third range bracket dropped across the board, IS and Clan. That extreme range and velocity is what really breaks things. But that's another story.

I can see most of these except for slower velocity. The weapon's cooldown, fragility/explodability, and charge-up push the weapon into a long-range "sniper" sort of role, while reducing velocity tries to make it into a brawling weapon. The rest of the Gauss's traits don't really match the credentials of what I would expect out of a brawling weapon, so it makes more sense to keep it in that role instead of trying to convert it into a brawler gun.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kin3ticX, on 19 November 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Its a good test candidate for deviating from the TRO cfgs and hardlocks. They could at least trade the ferro for endo but it wouldnt do much on its own. They could also drop the engine size 10-15 pts and then fill in the tonnage with ammo on the stock mechs.

Instead, tip toe around the issue and throw quirks at it.

It still brings up another problem though. Trying to close the power gap between the SMN and the TBR isn't exactly what I want to do either. The innersphere counterparts already struggle and often fail to match the firepower+speed+durability.

that's the hard part, but how does one really address the Inner Sphere/ Clan power imbalance, when there is already such a gaping Clan/Clan one? Clans need to be relatively equalized among themselves so that a clear picture can really be seen on what needs nerfs or tweaks on Clan Tech to make it balance.

The lack of balance comes directly from the inherent imbalance between Clan Mechs, and Quirks are just bandaids hiding the festering problem.

FupDup, on 19 November 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

I can see most of these except for slower velocity. The weapon's cooldown, fragility/explodability, and charge-up push the weapon into a long-range "sniper" sort of role, while reducing velocity tries to make it into a brawling weapon. The rest of the Gauss's traits don't really match the credentials of what I would expect out of a brawling weapon, so it makes more sense to keep it in that role instead of trying to convert it into a brawler gun.

not trying to make it a brawler gun. But are you really telling me that you can't snipe with 1700-1800 m/s Gauss instead of 2000? That the Clan Version would be not quite as good at it as the IS version make sense, since
1) lightweight sniper rifles are not as inherently accurate as heavier rigs, at the same power level. There's a reason they don't use super thin whippy barrels on them, and lighter would resist the recoil impulse less, during firing.
2) Clan Culture doesn't embrace long range, standoff fighting, but in the thick, quick and vicious. So extreme range would have been considered a worthy tradeoff for shaving 20% of it's weight off.

IS Gauss at 15 dmg/15 tons 2000 m/s
Clan Gauss at 15 dmg/12 tons for 1700 m/s and toss in 3x ERMLs to boot for the same weight as the IS version?

Yeah, no (non MWO fake) Clanner alive would lose sleep over the lost velocity, especially when it's still higher than anything but an AC2.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 November 2015 - 05:37 PM.