1236 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 14 July 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

There is no valid reason to have the JJ locked on a Mech like this with no weight saving tech and few hardpoints.

You cannot be treated seriously if you think it is Okay to vary weapon stats but refuse to budge on mech-specific TRO tech.

I'm fine with them being locked. JJs are what makes a Summoner a Summoner. Just like I don't wan't more energy Pods to end up with a Clan Grasshopper, I don't wan't it to be a Clan Warhammer, either. (Though I do want my Clan Warhammer... and Rifleman)

Endo would be the simplest, though not the least controversial fix. Ammo Quirks, I suppose could help, too. Yeah, I'm that guy that wants to have his cake and eat it. I want a Summoner to be able to play liek a Summoner, not another abomination like DakkaHammers, Laserpuke Archers, etc.

As for the Locked vs not locked JJ discrepancy? I still feel the most "realistic" answer is in efficiency. We ain't talking about a jetpack here. But 70 some tons of gyro controlled metal. Mechs like the Summoner, engineered from the ground up around JJs, simply should be able to jump farther, have more control and recharge their JJs faster than mechs with Strap-Ons, running around. Because no matter how you wanna try, how you wanna cry, no Strap-On replaces the real thing.

[Foxwalker]

I love the Summoner. My favorite go to mech these days. Of the Clan stable, it has the most quirks of all of them. It plays like a medium with the speed, twist and acceleration boosts. While the legs do seem to take more damage than they should, I am thinking that PGI has a lot more mechs in need of some love.

While it could use some changes it is in a much better place than the initial thread started in December of 2014 suggests. My personal feeling is that if they make it much better, it will get nerfed in unpredictable ways.

[Weeny Machine]

PGI wants to sell mechs. It is apparent on the power creep. Do you really think they will help old mechs to the extend you propose? I seriously doubt it.

[Navid A1]

Bradigus, on 14 July 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

I am firmly in the camp of adding more hardpoints via omnipods amd reducing quirks accordingly. A summoner with the F and M variant side torso omnipods provided energy hardpoints could run a really cool 6x C-MPL build or even a decent 2x C-LPL & 4x C-ERML laser vomit build. Those same side torso single energy hardpoints would also provide ERPPC and S-SRM/ SRM build with backup weapons.

As for ballistics, PGI could honestly make it so that ballistics come equipped with a single free ton of ammunition with the weapon, as well as provide resupply consumables and stations.

I also advocate for more diverse selections of omnipods on most clan chassis. Considering their lower heat capacity, evem giving a Hellbringer a 3x energh right side torso would at best mean 10x SPL on that fragile chassis.

Laser, laser, laser... LPL, ERML, LPL, ERML.
we have that already.

lets not ruin the summoner with rainbow vomit.

I like the free ton ammo idea though (or probably a 30% more ammo quirk)

[Mavairo]

With the way PGI likes to power creep I wonder how long it will be until we start instant killing assault mechs, in 1/2 second lol

[Tarl Cabot]

Would the Timberwolf/MadCat been as OP as it was if it had been modeled more closely to the FASA design? That is lots of area to hit.......

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

depends on your definition of "need". If one means to be another soulless laserzombie, then indeed. I'd sacrifice a little Meta at the Alter of Diversity, myself.

The mech has low available tonnage, a dearth of hard points, and most of its hard points are in the worst position possible. Lack of usable energy hard points means the mech must focus on missiles or ballistics, and it does not have the weight for ballistics. This mech has no diversity, it has maybe two builds that are decent and they're very niche.

Adding usable energy doesn't just make all energy builds possible. It also makes lasers + SRM and laser + ballistic possible. It makes build diversity possible.

Navid A1, on 14 July 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Why are we so eager to load the summoner to the brim with LPLs and ERMLs?

give it an ammo quirk and it starts wrecking face with a single UAC20 + a couple ERMLs and an srm
or... a single UAC10 + ERPPC + SRM.

Low ammo isn't the reason those builds don't work.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rouken Vordermark, on 14 July 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

The mech has low available tonnage, a dearth of hard points, and most of its hard points are in the worst position possible. Lack of usable energy hard points means the mech must focus on missiles or ballistics, and it does not have the weight for ballistics. This mech has no diversity, it has maybe two builds that are decent and they're very niche.

Adding usable energy doesn't just make all energy builds possible. It also makes lasers + SRM and laser + ballistic possible. It makes build diversity possible.



Low ammo isn't the reason those builds don't work.

so making it a clone of everything else makes it diverse? lol.

Pass. I'd rather it stay substandard than get bastardized like the Warhammer.

And actually, I make the stock Prime with stock armor work... at least until I run out of ammo. But I relaize I'm talkign a foreign language to you.

[Navid A1]

Rouken Vordermark, on 14 July 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Adding usable energy doesn't just make all energy builds possible. It also makes lasers + SRM and laser + ballistic possible. It makes build diversity possible.

Adding more torso energy hard points does exactly promote LPL+ERML vomit builds.
You'll be handi-capping yourself if you don't use it that way.

Rouken Vordermark, on 14 July 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Low ammo isn't the reason those builds don't work.

you have no idea.
I use both of those builds regularly.
My UACs and SRMs always run dry at near 600 damage mark... ERPPC or ERMLs pushes that to 700-800 sometimes.

Summoner is about low number of big guns on a mobile platform. You don't need more than 3-4 weapons on that mech. a single ERPPC coupled with a UAC10 and an SRM launcher is all you need.

Edited by Navid A1, 14 July 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Navid A1, on 14 July 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

you have no idea.

I use both of those builds regularly.

My UACs and SRMs always run dry at near 600 damage mark... ERPPC or ERMLs pushes that to 700-800 sometimes.

I usually use a sSRM6 on ModStock version, seems like it does better on average for me than when I use normal SRMs on it. I think the forced cooldown makes me a little more trigger conscious.

[Navid A1]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

I usually use a sSRM6 on ModStock version, seems like it does better on average for me than when I use normal SRMs on it. I think the forced cooldown makes me a little more trigger conscious.

My go to build is ERPPC on right arm, UAC10 on left arm, and ASRM6 in left torso.... works briliantly

My brawler setup is 2 ERMLs on right arm, UAC20 on left arm and ASRM6 in LT.

[Bishop Steiner]

Navid A1, on 14 July 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

My go to build is ERPPC on right arm, UAC10 on left arm, and ASRM6 in left torso.... works briliantly

My brawler setup is 2 ERMLs on right arm, UAC20 on left arm and ASRM6 in LT.

When I'm not running it bone stock, my alternate build is this:
SMN-PRIME

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

so making it a clone of everything else makes it diverse? lol.

Pass. I'd rather it stay substandard than get bastardized like the Warhammer.

And actually, I make the stock Prime with stock armor work... at least until I run out of ammo. But I relaize I'm talkign a foreign language to you.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think shunning a method because it is too mainstream is a terrible approach to balance.

[Navid A1]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

When I'm not running it bone stock, my alternate build is this:
SMN-PRIME

I prefer the ASRM to streak
SMN-PRIME

Rouken Vordermark, on 14 July 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think shunning a method because it is too mainstream is a terrible approach to balance.

Balance only have meaning when you have 2 or more things to compare... there is nothing to balance when everything runs 2LPL+4ERML.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Navid A1, on 14 July 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

Balance only have meaning when you have 2 or more things to compare... there is nothing to balance when everything runs 2LPL+4ERML.

Not only is that build no longer dominating the meta, it has been only one facet of the meta for a very long time, and its not the only build that becomes possible with more energy positioned well.

Edited by Rouken Vordermark, 14 July 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Navid A1, on 14 July 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

My go to build is ERPPC on right arm, UAC10 on left arm, and ASRM6 in left torso.... works briliantly

My brawler setup is 2 ERMLs on right arm, UAC20 on left arm and ASRM6 in LT.

Put the UAC10 in the right torso and you're better off. You can keep the empty UAC jam rate buff arm empty and not have any worries.

Personally, I run mine with 2x UAC5s in the right and left torsos and an ER PPC in the right arm. I also run a double PPC + UAC5 combo AND I'm toying with a PPC, UAC2, 3x SRM6 build. Truth be told, the Summoner is fine as it is. People are just wanting to overgun everything like every other mech. I'd definitely take an ammo quirk, though, in a heartbeat.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 14 July 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Put the UAC10 in the right torso and you're better off. You can keep the empty UAC jam rate buff arm empty and not have any worries.

Personally, I run mine with 2x UAC5s in the right and left torsos and an ER PPC in the right arm. I also run a double PPC + UAC5 combo AND I'm toying with a PPC, UAC2, 3x SRM6 build. Truth be told, the Summoner is fine as it is. People are just wanting to overgun everything like every other mech. I'd definitely take an ammo quirk, though, in a heartbeat.

some of us like being able to elevate and depress out guns. Different playstyles.

Rouken Vordermark, on 14 July 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think shunning a method because it is too mainstream is a terrible approach to balance.

And I think pushing everything into a single use is somewhat counter to balance, and lets PGI off too easy.

[Bradigus]

Navid A1, on 14 July 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

Laser, laser, laser... LPL, ERML, LPL, ERML.
we have that already.

lets not ruin the summoner with rainbow vomit.

I like the free ton ammo idea though (or probably a 30% more ammo quirk)

Providing the Summoner with the F and M variants single energy side torsos would be the safest, fastest and arguably smartest wayto to elevate it from the level of underwhelming it is in now. Not only would it enable the curremt cookie cutter meta build, it would add diversity to many others.

Unlocking endo-steel frame as a toggleable option for the clan omnimechs is a fundamental breaking of the rules that creates more problems than it would solve, and ballistics require extensive changes to their core to fix long standing issues that are not tied to the summoner alone. More omnipod variants in the same vein as the Timber Wolf S would solve the jumpjet issue.

The summoner already does missile spam well enough, and it's twin ppcs are a one-dimensional if moderately entertaining option

[Lightfoot]

The problem with the MWO Summoner is that PGI wants it both ways. They want the Summoner to have the Battle Tech hardpoints and construction and locked jump-jets, but they do not allow Battle Tech jump-jets in MWO, do to pop-tarting which they view as an exploit. The Summoner should be jumping like the Shadow Cat, if not as agile as the Shadow Cat. Then the locked jump jets form a balance and the Summoner has a unique purpose.

Edited by Lightfoot, 14 July 2016 - 08:29 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

We really don't need the Summoner to become another laser boating mech. Unlocking the JJs is not cool either.

As Bishop said, great JJs are the hallmark of the Summoner. That and mixed builds with big ballistics are what make the Summoned.

As for energy hardpoints, one in each ST positioned up high where the current ballistics handprints are is enough. That would accommodate your energy boats (cLPLs) or mixed builds.

But let's be realistic, those proposed ammo quirks are not going to really solve Summoner's ballistic/mixed build problems. They're not going to make up for the tonnage... unless they are 2x ammo quirks (that is, +100%).

That doesn't seem likely.