1236 replies to this topic

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Metus regem, on 30 December 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Couldn't have been you, you are not in STS, and it was two nights ago, around 8pm pacific time. As to what the summoner had was dual MPL paired with a cUAC 10 and cSSRM6. By all rights he should have been able to beat me in a close range brawl, if he had gone for legs or CT, I would have done either of those, and he did take my left leg first, the he just focused on my LT, and I was fine to let home take it, as I kept the bulk of my firepower in the rt alive and fine, and able to be brought to bare as I wanted it.

It was just a fight that was brought to me, that I wasn't sure that I would win, but I kept him busy with me, and the three Raven's went to pop generator 1, so I was doing my part. That being said, by all rights, the Summoner should have been able to beat me, he was faster, should have had basics at the very least, maybe even double basics...

Sounds like pilot quality was the vastly greater variable here.

[Metus regem]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 30 December 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

Sounds like pilot quality was the vastly greater variable here.

Must have been, and I am the first to say, that I maybe only decent, more than likely only average.

[Ultimax]

Metus regem, on 30 December 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

As to what the summoner had was dual MPL paired with a cUAC 10 and cSSRM6. By all rights he should have been able to beat me in a close range brawl, if he had gone for legs or CT, I would have done either of those, and he did take my left leg first, the he just focused on my LT, and I was fine to let home take it, as I kept the bulk of my firepower in the rt alive and fine, and able to be brought to bare as I wanted it.

That Summoner build is pretty bad.

So what you are saying is, you are talking about a poorly built Summoner who wasn't veteran enough of a player to know that your build was a trial mech or even just by looking at the load-out able to estimate it's likely a standard engine and not even able to recognize that going for your other leg was the best option.

He was likely a new player, or one who is not very good.


That says a lot about the guy you killed, but not really all that much about Summoner vs. Cataphract.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xythius, on 30 December 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

It might have been me. I remember being in a match a while ago opposite Metus & I know I was killed by a CTF. I was running mostly stock, using an ERPPC in the RA, an LB10X in the LA & an ASRM6 in the LT, plus aTC mk1. It's an 'ok' build & is fully elited. I've pulled some decent games with it, 2-4 kills & an avg of 400 dmg. I've recently pulled the ASRM off of it (if I use missiles I exclusively use artemis) & used the extra space for one more ton of LBX ammo & another couple DHS.

I like your style. Don't usually use Artemis on mine, but like to run near stock. Or stock. Even without maxing armor, the thing is tough.

[Metus regem]

Ultimatum X, on 30 December 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

That Summoner build is pretty bad.

So what you are saying is, you are talking about a poorly built Summoner who wasn't veteran enough of a player to know that your build was a trial mech or even just by looking at the load-out able to estimate it's likely a standard engine and not even able to recognize that going for your other leg was the best option.

He was likely a new player, or one who is not very good.


That says a lot about the guy you killed, but not really all that much about Summoner vs. Cataphract.

That maybe true, but I would hardly call myself good, decent at best. And as I said had I had an XL, he would have beat me, and I think that is what he was banking on.

[Xythius]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I like your style. Don't usually use Artemis on mine, but like to run near stock. Or stock. Even without maxing armor, the thing is tough.

I don't remember if I completely up-armored mine or not. I know maxed the legs & arms, but the torso's may still be at their stock levels.

I initially played around w/ the PPC/Gauss build for a while & though it could be effective, it certainly wasn't fun. Then I saw this thread & started thinking what you did - the stock build isn't terrible. Laughable ammo, but really, it is workable if you pay attention. I'm not much for LRM's (except my 6x LRM 5 trolling MDD build, but thats another story...), so I pulled the LRM15 off, stuffed an ASRM6 w/ 1 ton of ammo, threw another 1 or 2 tons LBX ammo & started playing the mech. And it works. After a weekend of playing, I decided a single ASRM isn't really all that tonnage effecient & was just spreading more dmg than the LBX, so I yanked it off for more ammo/DHS. It's slightly over-cooled now, but with the PPC & LBX cooldown modules, it would start riding the heat warning in protracted brawls before. Now it never even alarms, even when I'm jumping around like a cracked out gymnist. I know I've surprised a few ppl that saw me as an easy kill. It's certainly no game-breaker, but a surprisingly servicable 'mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xythius, on 30 December 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

I don't remember if I completely up-armored mine or not. I know maxed the legs & arms, but the torso's may still be at their stock levels.

I initially played around w/ the PPC/Gauss build for a while & though it could be effective, it certainly wasn't fun. Then I saw this thread & started thinking what you did - the stock build isn't terrible. Laughable ammo, but really, it is workable if you pay attention. I'm not much for LRM's (except my 6x LRM 5 trolling MDD build, but thats another story...), so I pulled the LRM15 off, stuffed an ASRM6 w/ 1 ton of ammo, threw another 1 or 2 tons LBX ammo & started playing the mech. And it works. After a weekend of playing, I decided a single ASRM isn't really all that tonnage effecient & was just spreading more dmg than the LBX, so I yanked it off for more ammo/DHS. It's slightly over-cooled now, but with the PPC & LBX cooldown modules, it would start riding the heat warning in protracted brawls before. Now it never even alarms, even when I'm jumping around like a cracked out gymnist. I know I've surprised a few ppl that saw me as an easy kill. It's certainly no game-breaker, but a surprisingly servicable 'mech.

i think more than a few people would be surprised on the many matches I managed to top the leaderboard, that I was running stock, lol. It's all about patience, something I picked up as a Medium mech guy. Against Zerg rusher teams like LORDs, I'm toast, but realistically, unless I am in a very good team, that's a given no matter what I'm in, it's just how much hurt I lay out before going down that varies.

One alternate I have run for the LRMs, is a single SSRM6, with 1 ton ammo, and then add 1.5 tons ammo to the LB-X. SSRM rack is pretty ammo efficient, after all.

[Ultimax]

Metus regem, on 30 December 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

That maybe true, but I would hardly call myself good, decent at best. And as I said had I had an XL, he would have beat me, and I think that is what he was banking on.

The point is that you didn't and were in a CTF that even as a trial build is capable of handling itself in a brawl.

The point is that the player you are using as an example of "The Summoner" didn't know what they were doing.

This is why trying to use a single anecdote to "prove" anything is flawed.


There is nothing wrong with a 70T Brawl build CTF defeating a 70T Summoner that was poorly played.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 30 December 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

The point is that you didn't and were in a CTF that even as a trial build is capable of handling itself in a brawl.

The point is that the player you are using as an example of "The Summoner" didn't know what they were doing.

This is why trying to use a single anecdote to "prove" anything is flawed.


There is nothing wrong with a 70T Brawl build CTF defeating a 70T Summoner that was poorly played.

because obviously the Summoner is a fine Tier 1 Mech as is.

[Xythius]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

i think more than a few people would be surprised on the many matches I managed to top the leaderboard, that I was running stock, lol. It's all about patience, something I picked up as a Medium mech guy. Against Zerg rusher teams like LORDs, I'm toast, but realistically, unless I am in a very good team, that's a given no matter what I'm in, it's just how much hurt I lay out before going down that varies.

One alternate I have run for the LRMs, is a single SSRM6, with 1 ton ammo, and then add 1.5 tons ammo to the LB-X. SSRM rack is pretty ammo efficient, after all.

How did you like it? Even w/ the SSRM cooldown module, the recycle time is forever long. I would also worry about the even wider damage spread over the LBX/SRM, even if the upside is almost guaranteed damage.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

because obviously the Summoner is a fine Tier 1 Mech as is.

You're assuming the CTF-3D is a T1 heavy across both factions? The game has changed.



The Summoner competes well vs. the CTF-3D which is the best variant of CTF available, they're on pretty even footing with the Summoner always having either a Speed and Maneuverability advantage (if the CTF goes STD) or a survivability advantage (if the CTF goes XL).


Only CTF builds like 2x AC10 + 1x PPC (probably it's best available build) are out of the realm of something you can build on the Summoner.

But that's not specific to the Summoner, as none of the Clan heavies can run that.

In fact if you want to run a similar build (and less efficient version at that) clan-side you have to go all the way up to 85T for a Warhawk before you can.




The Summoner is capable of some solid builds, even if it is often overshadowed by the HBR & TBR.

4x CERMLAS + Gauss is roughly equivalent to 3x LLAS and a Gauss IS side.
5x ASRM 6s is deadly up close.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 30 December 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Metus regem]

Ultimatum, what I am trying to say, is that in a trial mech I would expect to lose against a clan mech regardless of the build, I managed to survive, and die to an Ice Ferret moments later. Maybe he was poor to average pilot, and I got lucky. Or maybe I had the advantage of knowing the limits of his mech having gotten double basics on my prime, that is truly a bad, but fun build, ERLL, cUAC 20 cSRM6.

I guess I am trying to point that with the quriks on IS mechs, the Summoner really needs something, to make it stand out. Considering the lore behind it, maybe 50% more JJ thrust might be a good place to start?

[Ultimax]

Metus regem, on 30 December 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Ultimatum, what I am trying to say, is that in a trial mech I would expect to lose against a clan mech regardless of the build, I managed to survive, and die to an Ice Ferret moments later.

This is a completely flawed premise.

A bad clan build is often as bad as a bad trial build.

On top of that we have already established that the Summoner pilot was bad.


Or do you really think that a bad pilot running a poor build should always win vs. a trial mech?

Metus regem, on 30 December 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I guess I am trying to point that with the quriks on IS mechs, the Summoner really needs something, to make it stand out. Considering the lore behind it, maybe 50% more JJ thrust might be a good place to start?

The CTF-3D has ZERO positive quirks.

Unlike the Summoner which has faster acceleration, faster deceleration one of the few even existing speed quirks with the potential for both a 10% Ballistic cooldown and 10% energy cooldown (faster fire).


Clan Quirks haven't arrived yet, but even now the Summoner has a list of positive quirks compared to the "none" that the CTF-3D has.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

The Summoner needs nothing but a small boost in available tonnage.

The accel and decel quirks are nothing to write home about, and certainly no where near the scale of -50% heat retardation.

Edited by DV McKenna, 30 December 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[Ultimax]

DV McKenna, on 30 December 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

The Summoner needs nothing but a small boost in available tonnage.

We will likely see that simulated the way it was simulated or accounted for on IS quirks.

Lower heat costs means you need less DHS which is an overall tonnage savings.

Faster fire means, some mechs, can get away with fewer weapons that they fire more frequently - which again is a type of tonnage savings.

It's not perfect but this is the route PGI has taken with IS mechs, and is something we are more likely to see as opposed to just giving mechs more tonnage or breaking the clan mech build rules they have established.


Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to see those locked item restrictions loosened - realistically speaking I think we are more likely to see the above tweaks instead.



Yes the boosts it got were not as strong as what Thunderbolts got.

However I'm comfortable asserting that without quirks Thunderbolts were several magnitudes worse than the Summoner.

Thunderbolts were awful mechs, with no redeeming qualities previously.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 30 December 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

DV McKenna, on 30 December 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

The Summoner needs nothing but a small boost in available tonnage.

The accel and decel quirks are nothing to write home about, and certainly no where near the scale of -50% heat retardation.

The accel and speed quirks are actually quite excellent for the summoner, at least how I play it (which is NOT A BRAWLER). Lets me keep distance when pelting things with PPCs and LBXs more readily.


As far as the 3d being the best cataphract...I dunno if that's true anymore. I hopped back into my 1x brawler (AC20 and 5 med lasers) and its beastly with those medium laser quirks (meds gone from supplementary weapons to equal partners with the AC 20). For range fighting, the Cataphract would never be my first choice anyways, due to its hard point layout. Only the shoulder energy points are any good for that (admittedly, Ive had good success with the illya as dual PPC dual LBX).

[w00tzor]

Summoner could be good with only with small quirks for SRMs and PPCs. Now it's just bad, like many other clan mechs that could be a viable choice and instead there is something terrible that drag them down. Like the huge engine on the Badgoile, the nova that's stuck with loads of energy hardpoints without any quirk for energy weapons, the Baddog that has huge side torsos and can only boat missiles without quirks on it, the Badhawk that is stuck with loads of DHS ( not a bad thing) that take up so much space/tonnage, making good builds non-viable hardpoint wise.

The Badferret is just a fridge on legs, could be viable because the speed could make it a good scout.

The Badlynx is not terribad, it's just bad, 'cause of the hardpoint locations, with better hardpoint locations ( aka a couple on the side torsos) would be perfect and balanced, too slow to be a proper light dogfighter but not a mech that once has lost his ( huge) arms is useless.

Clan lightmechs are just terrible on every aspect, if someone's using them it means that they have only 30-35 tons free in the dropdeck or they are just noobs/for the lulz.

What i would do:

Lynx: add 1 hardpoint per side torso ( missile or energy, whatever)
IceFerret: add 1 hardpoint per side torso ( missile or energy)
Nova: small/Medium laser quirks.
MadDog: LRM/SRM quirks.
Warhawk: PPCs quirks.
Summoner: good PPCs and mediocre SRM quirks.

Sorry, went a bit offtopic talking about the other clan mechs also.

[Ultimax]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 30 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

The accel and speed quirks are actually quite excellent for the summoner, at least how I play it (which is NOT A BRAWLER). Lets me keep distance when pelting things with PPCs and LBXs more readily.

Yeah I was actually impressed last night when I was testing out some build options on the Summoner.

Mirumoto Izanami, on 30 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

As far as the 3d being the best cataphract...I dunno if that's true anymore. I hopped back into my 1x brawler (AC20 and 5 med lasers) and its beastly with those medium laser quirks (meds gone from supplementary weapons to equal partners with the AC 20). For range fighting, the Cataphract would never be my first choice anyways, due to its hard point layout. Only the shoulder energy points are any good for that (admittedly, Ive had good success with the illya as dual PPC dual LBX).

The 1X makes a decent brawler now, I agree. I'm still not sure it's all that great of a mech though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xythius, on 30 December 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

How did you like it? Even w/ the SSRM cooldown module, the recycle time is forever long. I would also worry about the even wider damage spread over the LBX/SRM, even if the upside is almost guaranteed damage.

It works well, as I don't rely on it for primary damage, but to supplement "money" shots, and to put a little respect into Lights. Also up in their face, the spread doesn't seem as bad (though that may be a matter of perception, not reality).

I still do most of the work with the PPC/AC.

[Gattsus]

One they they'll sing songs about Summoner op! PGI please nerf! Summoner is the next Timberwolf, but not today. Hope it gets some love.