1236 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

So I started an IS alt tonight, and ran with a CTF-3D trial unit, and I had little issue with taking out a summoner one on one.... Perhaps it was to me owning a Summoner I understood the limits of the mech, or the pilot of it not being that familiar with it, I am not sure, but it was eye opening to see what an IS mech could do to a clan mech...

And before you ask it was a PUG CW match...

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 28 December 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Endo Steel (in general) for increasing your overall tonnage per crits, would reduce the actual internal structure of a mech by 10% or something along those lines. This will need to be looked at a bit since the majority of mechs rely on it (Stalker usually is the exception I think) and that free tonnage has to "give back" for something. This is a soft nerf and reduces TTK, but it's a tradeoff between tonnage and durability (it's not going to change much, but will give people some thought).

For IS Ferro Fibrous Armor... using it should also boost the armor "protection" by something like 12% to 15%. This will allow for a IS FF to IS Endo Steel to be legit and won't screw over most Lights (although those that can wield both most benefit). It's something to think about for heavier/assault mechs given the spare tonnage juggling that they do over crits.

I'm cool with the FF idea, but Endo doesn't need to reduce internal structure.

Aside from penalizing clan mechs that have no choice in the matter, it also penalizes pretty much all IS assaults and even worse for IS Heavies that can't run XL due to their geometry - it also penalizes every IS light mech since all of them pretty much require Endo.


Those heavies and assaults that need to run STD engines, rely on Endo for them to have any kind of decent firepower at all by making up some of the cost of the STD engine investment.


The only Assault builds that can often even consider not using Endo are the pure energy builds who want the crit slots for DHS (like the 4x ER LLAS Stalkers).


Endo is really fine as it is IMO.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 December 2014 - 09:24 PM.

[pbiggz]

I ran the summoner for a few matches with a near stock loadout (about the same armor as stock, but i swapped the LBX for an ultra AC 10).

First thing i noticed is that its very tight on ammo, a product of its limited podspace.
Second thing i noticed is that if you aggressively (and i mean AGGRESSIVELY) torso twist, you can zombie alot of damage, that being said, it takes special effort to survive in this mech, where other mechs would not require such careful attention, the hellbringer comes to mind specifically.

What the mech needs is more speed and hardpoints yes, but it also needs podspace. Giving it endo, or the option to pick up endo, would do wonders for it. Allowing it to remove most of its jumpjets would have a similar effect, it all depends on what you're willing to do with it, because as it stands, the only thing that stands between the summoner and glory is lorehumpers who scream bloody murder the moment something is slightly different from that one book they read.

I also had a few thoughts on quirks. After playing with the Gargoyle and the Ice Ferret, I realized that as bad as the summoner's podspace problems are, the gargoyle actually has LESS podspace, and the ice ferret...
its bad. 9.5 tonnes of podspace on a 45 tonner. Its fast but it compounded with its hardpoints (next to none) a jenner could outgun the thing.

Some general quirks iv thought of.

Quirk: Engine flexibility - Allows the player to alter the engine rating of the mech at the cost of speed, but only within a specific range (would be very small, maybe one or two engine ratings down at most, this is a drastic measure, and i wouldnt make the decision to allow those alterations lightly).
Quirk: Structure flexibility - allows the player to swap endo steel at will (obviously, this has been talked about)
Quirk: Compact internals - internals have a lower weight than usual, thus players are allowed to go slightly into the negatives for available tonnage (this is an alternative to engine flexibility, and also a drastic measure).

Saving these quirks, the only thing that could save the ice ferret would be massive weapon quirks, like double damage/velocity/quarter heat ppcs or double damage/velocity autocannons, etc.

For the gargoyle, its movement profile should have been that of a medium mech, its reason for being is to GO FAST, so why it has a gargantuan movement profile is beyond me.

For the summoner, some mean weapon quirks are called for. The thunderbolt's erppc quirks would do nicely when applied to the chassis.
LRM quirks would be called for too, perhaps reduced target decay or faster velocity.
Autocannon quirks would be a necessity too, lbx or ultra (i use ultras and pretty much hate lbx acs, but lbx autocannons would likely be the ones to receive quirks).

Edited by pbiggz, 28 December 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[Kassatsu]

Shows how big of an impact these quirks had on these mechs. I literally didn't even notice the mist lynx quirks the few times I took it out since the update.

More acceleration/deceleration on the Summoner just means better corner poking... But not by much considering its weapons are often low-mounted arms.

Nova doesn't sound like it will do much beyond get you killed 10% faster while corner poking the same amount of damage you would have done without the 10% faster death.

Also, Mist Lynx before Adder? ...Really?

Deathlike, on 28 December 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

For IS Ferro Fibrous Armor... using it should also boost the armor "protection" by something like 12% to 15%. This will allow for a IS FF to IS Endo Steel to be legit and won't screw over most Lights (although those that can wield both most benefit). It's something to think about for heavier/assault mechs given the spare tonnage juggling that they do over crits.

If I'm not mistaken, FF already increases the total damage your armor takes by 12.5%, this is not reflected in the mech lab however, so 10 points of FF armor is equivalent to 12.5 standard, while weighing less but also taking 7/14 crit slots (fixed on clan mechs, but dynamic for IS). Unless they nerfed it when I wasn't looking, and they probably did.

Edited by Kassatsu, 28 December 2014 - 09:31 PM.

[Gattsus]

maybe share your build?

[Gattsus]

change FF for Endo?

[FupDup]

Kassatsu, on 28 December 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

If I'm not mistaken, FF already increases the total damage your armor takes by 12.5%, this is not reflected in the mech lab however, so 10 points of FF armor is equivalent to 12.5 standard, while weighing less but also taking 7/14 crit slots (fixed on clan mechs, but dynamic for IS). Unless they nerfed it when I wasn't looking, and they probably did.

FF armor isn't any more protective than normal armor (at the moment), it simply weighs less.

Deathlike, on 28 December 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

I was hoping for something like that, but that would fly over PGI's heads.

Anyways, I have a few ideas on how to balance Endo Steel vs Ferro Fibrous Armor, but that would need more fleshing out.

The basic idea:

Endo Steel (in general) for increasing your overall tonnage per crits, would reduce the actual internal structure of a mech by 10% or something along those lines. This will need to be looked at a bit since the majority of mechs rely on it (Stalker usually is the exception I think) and that free tonnage has to "give back" for something. This is a soft nerf and reduces TTK, but it's a tradeoff between tonnage and durability (it's not going to change much, but will give people some thought).

...

It's just ideas that I'm trying to flesh out a bit.

I'd rather have STD internals become tougher than making Endo fragile.

Your FF ideas are fine though.

Edited by FupDup, 28 December 2014 - 10:39 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 28 December 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

I'd rather have STD internals become tougher than making Endo fragile.

Your FF ideas are fine though.

We can certainly go with a +10% standard internal bonus (as much as +15%) for Standard Internals. I still use Endo Steel on my Atlas-S (5 tons saved) and so I never really think about "forgetting Endo" in most builds.

That still might be good enough to balance against FF, as external armor is doubled and therefore the suggested bonus for using them would be more effective than going w/o Endo (although, it's only scaled to the amount you put into it).

Edited by Deathlike, 29 December 2014 - 01:02 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I had always hoped that eventually FF and ES would have some kind of impact other than just weight savings.

If there was a tactical choice on top of the weight benefits I think that would rock.

It would also bolster lights, as they typically can use both ES and FF.

[Golden Vulf]

1453 R, on 22 December 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

If - I say IF - at any point the player base manages to push through unlocking Endo/Ferro options for Clan 'Mechs, there's only one way it will be acceptable. Neither upgrade is dynamic. Assign Endo or Ferro? the upgrade goes to the "Structure Upgrade 1" slots and takes up fixed and specified critical slots in the 'Mech. Assign both Endo and Ferro? Then you fill up both "Structure Upgrade 1" slots and "structure Upgrade 2" slots, with either set of slots to be determined by PGI if necessary but with both aimed to do the same thing. Clans distribute their Endo/FF equally throughout the 'Mech and typically do so taking up 'valuable' crits such as the CT, head, and legs.

Piranha does the same with self-assigned Endo/FF upgrades, and uses them to selectively bother people and maintain the spirit of the fixed base chassis without inflicting crippling penalties on 'Mechs that weren't gifted by the tabletop gods with the top choice of MWO upgrades. IS structure upgrades have the advantage of being dynamic and thus allowing for shield-side combat or symmetric combat as the pilot/chassis prefer, while Clan structure upgrades have the advantage of not eating every single crit slot the g'damned 'Mech has. If, and I say IF, you really, truly canot live without breaking the hardlocked base chassis rules, that right up there is your only conceivable shot of not opening up a tremendous fiery Shatnerstorm of hatred and recrimination that will last throughout the ages.

I'd say this would be a fair compromise. Either that or Mechs like the Timber and Stormcrow that already have the upgrades can't remove them and their fixed armor and structure slots remain fixed.

And customizing an omnimech follows the same rules as customizing a regular battlemech fyi. That stuff only gets hard locked after you decide what components the base configuration has. It is all in the tech manual! People keep reading one part on Sarna and ignore the other parts.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 29 December 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[1453 R]

Golden Vulf, on 29 December 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

I'd say this would be a fair compromise. Either that or Mechs like the Timber and Stormcrow that already have the upgrades can't remove them and their fixed armor and structure slots remain fixed.

And customizing an omnimech follows the same rules as customizing a regular battlemech fyi. That stuff only gets hard locked after you decide what components the base configuration has. It is all in the tech manual! People keep reading one part on Sarna and ignore the other parts.

The reeal issue is that the hardlocked base chassis for an OmniMech is one of the things Piranha hung their balancing efforts on. Given the existence of chassis like the Timber Wolf and the Stormcrow, it's not been working as well as it could, but it's also one of the reasons Clan weapons are even remotely viable, rather than the Vassago Rains and Hillslams and Rolands and Hillslams of the world getting Piranha to lower the range of the C-ERML to 270m optimal and the damage of the C-ERML to 5, while still retaining the heat and beam duration disadvantages of the Clan energy weapons.

Yes, I've seen people suggest, very seriously, that Clan extended-range energy weapons should not have any more range than Inner Sphere standard systems, nor should Clan weaponry have any advantages of damage to balance out the vastly increased heat and significantly longer burn times of their equipment. This is a thing I've seen people desire

I'm mostly just saying that any sort of alterations to the Clan chassis construction rules have to be approached very carefully, and with an eye towards trying to ensure that there's still a reason to use the Spheroid side of the tech base beyond nostalgia. Clan 'Mechs able to much with their internal systems and their omnipod selection upsets the balance between Spheroid Play-Dough chassis that can alter everything but their hardpoints and Clan Omnichassis that can Potatohead hardpoints freely but pay for it with heavy restrictions in their chassis customization.

There are other things keeping most of the really terrible Clan chassis terrible (Summoner? Adder? Mist Lynx? Ice Ferret? Three out of four of those have both upgrades already. They just have REALLY TRULY EXCEPTIONALLY AWFUL HARDPOINTS), but this is still a thing you have to approach very carefully, and preferably with plenty of warning to the playerbase.

Y'know, so they can all scream that Clan energy needs to be Nerfinated to the point of being as awful and unusable as most Clan autocannons while also screeching at Piranha to do absolutely nothing to make bad Clan 'Mechs any better than they currently are.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 29 December 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

The reeal issue is that the hardlocked base chassis for an OmniMech is one of the things Piranha hung their balancing efforts on. Given the existence of chassis like the Timber Wolf and the Stormcrow, it's not been working as well as it could, but it's also one of the reasons Clan weapons are even remotely viable, rather than the Vassago Rains and Hillslams and Rolands and Hillslams of the world getting Piranha to lower the range of the C-ERML to 270m optimal and the damage of the C-ERML to 5, while still retaining the heat and beam duration disadvantages of the Clan energy weapons.

Yes, I've seen people suggest, very seriously, that Clan extended-range energy weapons should not have any more range than Inner Sphere standard systems, nor should Clan weaponry have any advantages of damage to balance out the vastly increased heat and significantly longer burn times of their equipment. This is a thing I've seen people desire

I'm mostly just saying that any sort of alterations to the Clan chassis construction rules have to be approached very carefully, and with an eye towards trying to ensure that there's still a reason to use the Spheroid side of the tech base beyond nostalgia. Clan 'Mechs able to much with their internal systems and their omnipod selection upsets the balance between Spheroid Play-Dough chassis that can alter everything but their hardpoints and Clan Omnichassis that can Potatohead hardpoints freely but pay for it with heavy restrictions in their chassis customization.

There are other things keeping most of the really terrible Clan chassis terrible (Summoner? Adder? Mist Lynx? Ice Ferret? Three out of four of those have both upgrades already. They just have REALLY TRULY EXCEPTIONALLY AWFUL HARDPOINTS), but this is still a thing you have to approach very carefully, and preferably with plenty of warning to the playerbase.

Y'know, so they can all scream that Clan energy needs to be Nerfinated to the point of being as awful and unusable as most Clan autocannons while also screeching at Piranha to do absolutely nothing to make bad Clan 'Mechs any better than they currently are.

all good points. I do feel the locked engines are pretty sufficient for this.

Big thing is none of the "good" chassis get better if the structure is unlocked (1 build of the DW is arguably able to benefit from it. The Warhawk doesn't have the room for it, and the Gargoyle desperately needs it, as does the Summoner and Nova)

The potential issues would be the Hellbringer, though it's overall effectiveness is due mostly to it's ECM, as it runs way hot in pretty much every build, and the Mad Dog, which could indeed get more evil with 3 tons more pod space (29 tons of pods after max armor), but...it's still a bloody 60 tonner.

BUt I would say that if they got the ability to upgrade to endo, it should have fixed critical locations, and that JJs and Engines stay locked.

Just wish there was a viable way to make an upgrade like this "cost" something, like use a module slot.

[Bishop Steiner]

I just want my Summoner to be

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

I just want my Summoner to be

It shouldn't lose to a trial CTF-3D in close range anyways (sub 90m)......

I'm still surprised by that, I had the two ERLL two ml and a LB-X, yet I won? Maybe if the Summoner was more heat efficient he wouldn't have been over hearing as much, he'd fire, pause......... Fire, fire,fire pause..... Alpha, alpha shut down, then die when I blew both legs off....

[InspectorG]

pbiggz, on 26 December 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

There is no reason the less used clan chassis like the adder, nova, summoner, and gargoyle SHOULDN'T be entitled to the same quirks that the less used IS mechs got. The thunderbolt is an amazingly fun mech to pilot now, we know the quirks can bring the bad mechs out of obscurity, so let them come! I want my summoner! I want to tremble at the sight of an enemy summoner pounding towards me. In every past mechwarrior game (save 4) the summoner has given me pause, its truely a terrifying mech, tall, asymmetrical, alien, and hell did that ultra 20 rattle your cockpit in mechwarrior 3.

PGI should look to roles for the Summoner and Nova.

Timber and Crow should be the tanks. Cut the Timby JJ a little.

Summoner shouldnt need anything unlocked, just 2 new omnipods(ill keep banging this drum till i hear a better reason)
RT/LT with 2E each up high. Simple.
Prime gets Thud like erppc quirks. Agility, JJ boost, 3erpps Clan hit-an-run poptarter. Opposite role of the Timby.
Laser variant gets laser duration/heat quirks. Cut those ERLL to .75 seconds. Poke and move from weird locations.
Missile gets missile quirks. Pop-lurming???? May have utility in CW at the gates???

Nova should get insane JJ boost. Should look like a brick flying sideways someone launched at your dome.
Make the 12ersl more like pre-nerf.
6erml should get erml quirks.
Nova with a ballistic arm????so it can waste ammo shooting dirt? Give it a 2M arm for SRMs, Maybe a torso M. Lore isnt treating these guys well, abandon lore.
They wont fix those HORRID hitboxes, might as well make up for them in other ways. Nova can be a quick butcher with short range weapons, like pre heat nerf. He just needs speed and mobility to survive.

[Mcgral18]

InspectorG, on 29 December 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

PGI should look to roles for the Summoner and Nova.

Timber and Crow should be the tanks. Cut the Timby JJ a little.

Summoner shouldnt need anything unlocked, just 2 new omnipods(ill keep banging this drum till i hear a better reason)
RT/LT with 2E each up high. Simple.
Prime gets Thud like erppc quirks. Agility, JJ boost, 3erpps Clan hit-an-run poptarter. Opposite role of the Timby.
Laser variant gets laser duration/heat quirks. Cut those ERLL to .75 seconds. Poke and move from weird locations.
Missile gets missile quirks. Pop-lurming???? May have utility in CW at the gates???

Nova should get insane JJ boost. Should look like a brick flying sideways someone launched at your dome.
Make the 12ersl more like pre-nerf.
6erml should get erml quirks.
Nova with a ballistic arm????so it can waste ammo shooting dirt? Give it a 2M arm for SRMs, Maybe a torso M. Lore isnt treating these guys well, abandon lore.
They wont fix those HORRID hitboxes, might as well make up for them in other ways. Nova can be a quick butcher with short range weapons, like pre heat nerf. He just needs speed and mobility to survive.

And armour quirks. Same could be said for all over-scaled mechs.

The way they have SRMs modelled, 4 SRM6s will fit on a single arm, while just 1 per ST. Though, the LRM20 takes up the whole arm.

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 December 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[1453 R]

Metus regem, on 29 December 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

It shouldn't lose to a trial CTF-3D in close range anyways (sub 90m)......

I'm still surprised by that, I had the two ERLL two ml and a LB-X, yet I won? Maybe if the Summoner was more heat efficient he wouldn't have been over hearing as much, he'd fire, pause......... Fire, fire,fire pause..... Alpha, alpha shut down, then die when I blew both legs off....

If you'd been fighting my Summoner (C-LBX/20, 2x C-ERML, 2x C-MG), I'd've gutted you like a fish, and that's not even a great fit on the thing. Need to find weight to upgrade to C-MPL.

What you encountered was what happens when a typical Clan sniper gets caught by IS units. Their heat efficiency is awful, so they lose the pressure game in a hurry and collapse. It's one reason I've been having so much fun in Clan brawlers recently. Nobody is ready to deal with a Clan 'Mech loaded with a GigaShotgun and a pile of heat-effective, high DPS C-ERSL. It's a hoot, and can occasionally breath new life into a chassis like the Summoner that stinks at the normal Clan distance fight.

[Mechteric]

I think ability to add Endo Steel would be for the best, there's at least 2 other mechs gimped by this lack, Nova and Gargoyle.

[Golden Vulf]

InspectorG, on 29 December 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

PGI should look to roles for the Summoner and Nova.

Timber and Crow should be the tanks. Cut the Timby JJ a little.

Summoner shouldnt need anything unlocked, just 2 new omnipods(ill keep banging this drum till i hear a better reason)
RT/LT with 2E each up high. Simple.
Prime gets Thud like erppc quirks. Agility, JJ boost, 3erpps Clan hit-an-run poptarter. Opposite role of the Timby.
Laser variant gets laser duration/heat quirks. Cut those ERLL to .75 seconds. Poke and move from weird locations.
Missile gets missile quirks. Pop-lurming???? May have utility in CW at the gates???

Nova should get insane JJ boost. Should look like a brick flying sideways someone launched at your dome.
Make the 12ersl more like pre-nerf.
6erml should get erml quirks.
Nova with a ballistic arm????so it can waste ammo shooting dirt? Give it a 2M arm for SRMs, Maybe a torso M. Lore isnt treating these guys well, abandon lore.
They wont fix those HORRID hitboxes, might as well make up for them in other ways. Nova can be a quick butcher with short range weapons, like pre heat nerf. He just needs speed and mobility to survive.

That solution for the summoner means you won't ever see any summoners except for variations of laser vomit. The Thunderbolt ER PPC quirks are so insane, don't expect their like on a clan mech, since they aren't long for this world.

With the existing omnipods freeing up 3 and a half tons from endo, you could actually make use of weapons that weren't ER mediums. The 1 energy left torso that is in the game files is sorely needed. what would be nice is a 2 missile left torso or a 1 missile right torso, for some ART IV SRM splat up close.

They also need to get more serious with the mobility quirks, the speed increase was a step in the right direction, making the summoner the fastest mech over 55 tons, what it needs is some better jump jet lift and heat reduction from jump jet use. If Summoner gets endo and mobility quirks, it can probably get by without heat reduction for energy quirks.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 29 December 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Metus regem]

1453 R, on 29 December 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

If you'd been fighting my Summoner (C-LBX/20, 2x C-ERML, 2x C-MG), I'd've gutted you like a fish, and that's not even a great fit on the thing. Need to find weight to upgrade to C-MPL.

What you encountered was what happens when a typical Clan sniper gets caught by IS units. Their heat efficiency is awful, so they lose the pressure game in a hurry and collapse. It's one reason I've been having so much fun in Clan brawlers recently. Nobody is ready to deal with a Clan 'Mech loaded with a GigaShotgun and a pile of heat-effective, high DPS C-ERSL. It's a hoot, and can occasionally breath new life into a chassis like the Summoner that stinks at the normal Clan distance fight.

He jumped me, and focused on my LT, I guess he thought I had an XL, if I had had an XL he would have won, hands down.