1236 replies to this topic

[lsp]

FupDup, on 22 December 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

It's not how it looks on the outside that matters, it's how it looks from the inside view of the cockpit that matters.

I actually like how it looks, lol. And the cockpit view is just a bonus.
I only use 3 Lplas though, with 2 mlas and a bigger engine probably.

Edited by lsp, 22 December 2014 - 11:06 PM.

[Praehotec8]

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

ES and/or FF won't make Nova's as good as Stormcrows, or Summoners as good as Timberwolves. It'll bring them closer, though.

And you want to bring those poorer mechs up, to allow for a faction-wide change like a severe speed penalty with XL destruction: You bring up the weakest, then bring ALL the clan mechs down. This brings the Timberwolf and Stormcrow more in line with IS mechs, while more or less maintaining the position of the others and improving the particularly bad ones.

Not sure where you're going with this?

Fair enough. I am, after all, perfectly aware of how a Timberwolf with a smaller engine would be even more dangerous, and the Gargy would be way, way better with a FAR smaller engine.

My point, however, was that engines are a much more grey area than ES. ES is basically always an advantage that comes at no cost. I respect that more speed is better for a light, but at least a light with a smaller engine is getting more firepower in return. This isn't a fair trade, but it's at least a noticable one. The 7 slot cost (even a 14 slot cost in the case of IS ES) is irrelevant at best. Excepting the largest of assaults, every single IS mech runs ES and it's virtually never an issue.

The "slippery slope" argument is terrible. Really terrible. Unlocking ES/FF has no bearing on Engines - it's neither more nor less likely that engines would end up being unlocked either way. Just because ES is unlocked doesn't mean engines need to be. Note that not a single person in this thread is advocating unlocking engines.

I fully understand the issue with lights. The slow lights will need quirks. Hell, even the Summoner and Nova will need quirks, because ES/FF isn't all the difference there, as we all well know. But ES/FF gets them closer before quirks, and reduces the need of gigantic quirks.

It doesn't have to be one or the other exclusively.

Quirks are much better used to fine tune, rather than make big moves. Quirks making big moves results in things like the TDR-9S and such.

Sadly, because of the HUGE difference between Clan chassis, Clan weapons have been mangled all to hell and can't be fixed. This means Clan mechs end up mounting largely as many energy omnipods as possible to vomit lasers and sometimes SRM's all over the place.

But in practice, as we can clearly see, weapon specific quirks result in that weapon being used. Yeah, a HBK-4G can mount a Gauss Rifle, and it's Gauss Rifle will see bonuses from the generic quirks.

How many 4G's do you see with Gauss Rifles?

Except you ARE going full meta. It's just that with weapon specific quirks, there isn't a "this loadout is meta" anymore, it's a meta build per chassis. I do like that - I think it's awesome for Inner Sphere. Instead of just AC5's and PPC's (yeah, it'd be different now, but you know what I mean) you see all sorts of things. A CN9-D with an LBX10 is a meta build. Just for that mech.

The same will happen for Clan mechs if you give them weapon specific quirks. You'll just create a new meta build for that specific chassis.




Don't get me wrong. Pure quirks will work, too. They'll just ultimately reduce customization, as people will only equip those weapons, just like they do with IS mechs. If PGI goes that way... whatever. *shrugs* It wouldn't be the end of the world, but it'll be less interesting than having Clan mechs remain more different than IS mechs.

I think this post about sums up how i feel. I think allowing ES/FF customization on clan mechs, coupled with an XL engine damage speed loss is probably the most practical way to achieve more parity between the clan mechs while imposing a limitation on the clans as a whole. It certainly wouldn't make clans more powerful overall, since the best clan mechs already have both ES and FF equipped - it just allows more diversity in choosing clan mechs.

An example: Long ago, I used to have a Jager with 2 AC2 and 2 AC5s, and it had tonnage for ammo and armor. Try putting that build on a Hellbringer - can't do it effectively, yet the two are the same tonnage, and the Omnimech is the one that has lighter ACs and is in general ought to have more weapon customization ability. Ignoring the fact that clan ACs are poor in general, the lack of ES/FF is essentially eliminating any weight advantage of clan ACs on all but the top-tier clan mechs (just as an example of why ES/FF unlocks make sense).

Evening the playing field between the best clan mechs and the rest won't unbalance IS vs. Clans more than it currently is, but will give clans more options in mechs to field, same as quirks did for IS, without forcing each clan mech into a de facto loadout the way quirks would.

I've read most of the thread and thought about it, but I still can't see any better options than this. Just leave the engines permanently locked.

[KuroNyra]

InspectorG, on 22 December 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

Do it !!!!

That laught.... Must.... Res.... RESI......
All hail Wubverine, all hail Wubverine

[Bishop Steiner]

Was really hoping to get Russ to comment, as he claims a strong fondness for the chassis. Guess not

[Zordicron]

Here is my two cents, without actually reading all 14 pages because of time:

My loadouts-

I don't use stock pods on my prime.
2x Uac5 in torsos, 4x ERML in arms. I forget ammo count and if i added DHS or not. I haven't run it since quirks, but my k/d was insane in this thing. Can't brawl. Have to stay out at the max optimal range of ERML, or a little further and use the AC's. Not a "first shot fired" mech. You must be cautious, and play like a medium as OP stated. However, it will lay out some fantastic support fire, and if you can catch someone off guard by using the decent speed to fringe flank(work on edges of your team to try to catch people from the side) you can rip them down hard before they figure out how to find cover. It is durable enough to make it late into the match, even taking some return fire occasionally. Trick is to try to save the legs early, and then use the JJ and let dmg spread there when the fuzzball closes in late inside the 200M range as it usually does. And twist(duh).

I ran the missile variant as a SSRM6 boat. Must be cautious, and pick targets well. Lights are candy. mediums are foolish to try to win a shootout with you in range. Heavy will take a beating, usually only a TBR or the like is gutsy enogh to stick it out, and if I do my part, they lose anyway, though it requires the right terrain, and I will be in horrid shape after. Assaults get shot at as support fire only, otherwise I flee. K/D is not insane, but solid, mostly because of the littl'uns I feast on, but W/L is very good, which to me means it is effective during a match. Mostly I only went this way as novelty and to get basics unlocked, but I run it occasionally for lulz when lights get annoying to me.


those are the two loadouts I have run that actually played out intuitively. you can put quite a weird mash up of stuff on a Summoner, but most of the time it plays out clunky as all get out and requires either too much face time or too much compromise on range effectiveness(between weapon systems) to work correctly.

IMO, the SMN is a really solid mech. Really solid, so long as you run like maybe one of the whole whopping 3 loadouts that function decently on the mech. IMO, a slight buff in agility beyond what it already has, especially twist rate and maybe a little bit of turn rate, would make it feel like it has enough agility to offset some of it's limitations.

ALSO, i think it could stand a few more omni pods, even if they are PGI originals, to allow a bit more options for loadouts. The current set up is very very ridged in what can be loaded to work. it needs some more hardpoint options, and I do NOT think adding points to existing pods is a wise move. Rather, add some more pods instead, even if they need a few minor negative quirks to offset additional points on them.

I don't think it is so much that the SMN can't load a meta loadout, because people try anyway. it's that people have too hard a time fitting weapon systems on it that fit how they play. it is kind of like pre-quirk T-bolts. it was a really solid mech, but people couldn't wrap their head around all the weird hardpoint layouts and form up a loadout that was simple enough(or easy enough sometimes) for them. the t-bolt got quirks that essentially shoe-horn intuitive loadouts onto the chassis/variants, so people could overcome that. IMO, THAT IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO APPROACH AN OMNIMECH. Rather, add more omnipods to allow more flex in what fits.


A thought for OMNI in general= what if we had an omnipod that equipped ENDO to the whole mech? we have pods with fixed JJ, what if there were pods with fixed endo? maybe it would require more then one pod be equipped?, say we make a SMN-QQ pod set, that had endo. PGI could then create hardpoints and quirks for that set itself, but put a tag on it that required 2 orwhatever of the same set be equipped, else=error in loadout with a red triangle warning? Just a thought, might not be worth it, just thought of that while reading a quip about putting endo on on the first page of this thread.

[3rdworld]

The ERPPC & Gauss build is decent for CW, that is about all I can think of.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Was really hoping to get Russ to comment, as he claims a strong fondness for the chassis. Guess not

Have you forwarded it via Twitter?

It might help.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 24 December 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Have you forwarded it via Twitter?

It might help.

yup. all silent

[mogs01gt]

3rdworld, on 23 December 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

The ERPPC & Gauss build is decent for CW, that is about all I can think of.

Ive ran that build a few times. The PPCs are still unreliable. Gets old having PPCs go right through targets.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Was really hoping to get Russ to comment, as he claims a strong fondness for the chassis. Guess not

The Summoner? He needs to whip out some favoritism here. Its my favorite Clan ride.

In general, if the Holy Trinity are to be the strong generalists, the Adder, Summoner, Nova should be niche specialists.

Summoner could be easily fixed: no need for removing JJ,FF, adding endo/etc.
Give it new side torsos with high energy points.
Give it a medium movement archetype(or whatever they call them), more agility, more jj boost.
21 tons pod space is enough IF the quirks are right.

Prime: 3ERPPC with similar quirks to the Thud 9S...i dont think many would complain. WOULD BE the CLAN PPFLD GAWD!

D: energy buffs. Could go general(yuck) or
ER-Lasers, .30% DURATION, cooling/etc. If its a mobile striker, cut the burn time so it doesnt have to stare down. No sense in being a fast ninja if you have to stare at someone for 1.5 seconds. Not very ninja.
WUBS...because: reasons. Side torsos with more E points and Wub quirks ala Thud 5SS...any complaints? 6E total. 2LPL,4MPL-quirks synergize them. Knife to the back...or face, whatever.

B: general missile buffs. 50% cooldown for SSRM? 50% LESS TARGETING TIME for LRM, range and velocity buff. ARTEMIS BOOST !!!!

Trade Offs inherent are:
Summoner is wide, and has leg thickness(yum...oh wait, wrong legs).
Side torso missile canister says...'hit me', from all sides and from above.
Only 21 tons pod space...mainly in arms. Dual ballistics are unrealistic.
LOW hanging arms. Summoner has primate ancestors...not as bad as Nova though.
Side cockpit...bothers some but not me. I Detroit lean naturally so...

Bishop Steiner, on 24 December 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

yup. all silent

Maybe we start a 'Save our Summoner' thread in suggestion area? Flood with likes and quotes from this thread???

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 December 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

yup. all silent

I suspect that the answer is "Because new CW and Christmas"

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 24 December 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

I suspect that the answer is "Because new CW and Christmas"

Meh. Whatever.

[Vassago Rain]

But you told me it's not the mech, but the pilot.

Just hit and fade, bro.

[kapusta11]

Funny how Summoner is underpowered while Thunderwub is considered OP

Edited by kapusta11, 25 December 2014 - 11:59 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 25 December 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Funny how Summoner is underpowered while Thunderwub is considered OP

amazing what higher DPS and hugely shorter beam duration can do. But at least the 5SS is held back by range. The 9S? That thing is stupid.

[Vassago Rain]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 December 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

amazing what higher DPS and hugely shorter beam duration can do. But at least the 5SS is held back by range. The 9S? That thing is stupid.

I know, rite?

A single mech in the game can use ER PPCs. We gotta make sure it's nerfed properly to contain its powerlevel.

[kapusta11]

Vassago Rain, on 26 December 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

I know, rite?

A single mech in the game can use ER PPCs. We gotta make sure it's nerfed properly to contain its powerlevel.

Not only use them but be NEARLY as effective as dual gauss Jager or Phract, We should stop this nonsense asap.

Bishop Steiner, on 26 December 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

amazing what higher DPS and hugely shorter beam duration can do. But at least the 5SS is held back by range. The 9S? That thing is stupid.

Laser burn duration is overrated IMO, laser spread generally depends more on on enemy mech's speed, so using clan long burn lasers agains slow IS heavies is the same thing as using IS fast burn lasers against fast Clan heavies, and assaults suffer the same from both.

Edited by kapusta11, 26 December 2014 - 12:25 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

kapusta11, on 26 December 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

Not only use them but be NEARLY as effective as dual gauss Jager or Phract, We should stop this nonsense asap.

It's important that we maintain the one monthly good mech, I agree.

[Deathlike]

kapusta11, on 26 December 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

Laser burn duration is overrated IMO, laser spread generally depends more on on enemy mech's speed, so using clan long burn lasers agains slow IS heavies is the same thing as using IS fast burn lasers against fast Clan heavies, and assaults suffer the same from both.

It's not overrated... but it depends on the context of usage.

Using pulse lasers generally allow you to have less facetime with your enemy... for more of the hit and run situation. Something like the Mist Lynx that can't stare at anything for too long would benefit far more with Clan Medium Pulse Lasers than the Clan ERMED options. In fact, CMPL has less of a duration than even the more common IS Med Laser (although, it's negligible in the grand scheme of things).

If you have the spare tonnage, pulse lasers can be better concentrated fire options than their non-pulse counterparts.


Anyways... onto the convo. I now own this terrible mech and is exceeding my expectations despite its complete ineptitude on loadouts and omnipods.

I'll have an upcoming post soon about this and another terrible mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 26 December 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

It's not overrated... but it depends on the context of usage.

Using pulse lasers generally allow you to have less facetime with your enemy... for more of the hit and run situation. Something like the Mist Lynx that can't stare at anything for too long would benefit far more with Clan Medium Pulse Lasers than the Clan ERMED options. In fact, CMPL has less of a duration than even the more common IS Med Laser (although, it's negligible in the grand scheme of things).

If you have the spare tonnage, pulse lasers can be better concentrated fire options than their non-pulse counterparts.


Anyways... onto the convo. I now own this terrible mech and is exceeding my expectations despite its complete ineptitude on loadouts and omnipods.

I'll have an upcoming post soon about this and another terrible mech.

exactly right on the Pulse lasers. Any of my fast harassers run IS MPL (short range is a drawback, but look shoot, twist, is well worth it. But most people in this game have "staring " problems (especially a lot of the self proclaimed experts), so probably wouldn't see the difference.

As for the Mist Lynx, I stick to SPL and ERSLasers just for that reason (well, and heat)