1236 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 31 December 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

Fix Summoner first...spheroid garbage second.

[Xythius]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 December 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Fix Summoner first...spheroid garbage second.

Says the man with a Steiner emblem next to his name.

[1453 R]

Bishop's only pretending to be a Lyran. In reality, he is RED SPY after Lyran intelligence!

...as soon as he finds Lyran intelligence, or possibly even just an intelligent Lyran, he'll be back in Clan space with the rest of the cool kids.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 31 December 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Bishop's only pretending to be a Lyran. In reality, he is RED SPY after Lyran intelligence!

...as soon as he finds Lyran intelligence, or possibly even just an intelligent Lyran, he'll be back in Clan space with the rest of the cool kids.

Ghost bear spy tyvm

[Xythius]

Ultimatum X, on 30 December 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Pretty much most fully optimized builds are some form of specialist - that's why Jumpsniping was so dominant, it was good everywhere all the time.

How often do you see that now? Even though the DS even got buffs for that build?


The game has a lot of high performing hyper specialists.

ER PPC 9S
7x MPL 5SS
Mid/Long-range Laser Vomit
SRM heavy Splat builds
etc





Try here, you need to have an open mind and no preconceived notions of what you think the mech is supposed to and instead play the mech for what it can be.

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/


CERPPC+Gauss does not need a macro.




Useless beyond a range is irrelevant if your team is focused on that type of drop deck.

Gauss in the torso + energy in the arms is no different than it is on the CTF-3D, the mech a few posters keep ignoring that the Summoner competes with. (meaning either some of your lasers are low, or your gauss depending on where you slot stuff)


4x CERLLAS exposes it's torsos...from 800m away. It's a specialist build that does a single thing very well.


If you think none of those builds are solid T2 than you must think the CTF-3D is not a T2 mech either.

Bolded your quotes to emphasize what I am specifically responding to.

I think I've found your disconnect. No one is taking a Summoner into CW. Not serious players anyway. Taking a Summoner over other options available is simply foolish.

The CTF-3D that somehow got brought into this as the yard stick by which we are judging the Summoner, is better for one simple reason - Dual Gauss. You're not doing that on a Summoner. Sure, you have to run an XL engine in it, but as you so poignantly pointed out - you only have to expose your torso's from 800 meters away..

4x ERLL? You know what actually does that better? The Hellbringer. For 5 less tons. Why? High mounted energy hardpoints. 3 in the upper LT (that also houses ECM, another +1 for the HBR) and one in the head. Gauss+ERPPC? Yup, outdone by the HBR again. And for the exact same reason.

Poor Summoner, obsoleted by a 'mech in its same weight class, but 5 tons lighter and no FF/Endo. Next to the TBR, the HBR is the only other Clan heavy that anyone with sense is taking into CW.

This is the point that is trying to be conveyed, Ultimatum. The Summoner is outclassed in its own weight class, not just by IS 'mechs, both above and below 70t, but by the Clans 65 tonner. Now, personally, what I would argue for - and have been - is that if PGI gives us the option to unlock FF/Endo on all Clan 'mechs, it would allow some of these severely under-performing 'mechs we have to actually be in a place to contribute in serious matches, not just something you take out for fun, or 'da lulz'. Give us that, take away the negative omni-pod quirks & I'll be in a happy place. I wouldn't turn down some positive pod quirks either, but I would be willing to live without them if we could just change our structure and armor.

Edited by Xythius, 31 December 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[ArchSight]

Hey, if people have a reason to take a summoner they will.

From what I can see there's already enough reasons to take a summoner out to kill mechs with.

Summoner vs timber wolf, Summoner can equip a ultra ac20 or gauss rifle in the torso with 5 jump jets while the timber can't do the same. Summoner can equip a ballistic or energy in the prime arms to get a quirk cool down decrease. Summoner runs faster than the timber wolf. Summoner cockpit is close to the right arm enabling tighter right hand corner shots around cover to be able to dodge taking damage faster while peek firing on the right. Summoner weight 70 tons which enables it to be taken 3 times in one cw match with a 30 ton light in a 240 ton cap drop deck. Timber can only be taken twice in CW because there isn't a 15 ton mech in MWO to take. Summoner has more weapon module slots. Edit: oh yeah and possibly double AMS in every build.

Edited by ArchSight, 31 December 2014 - 03:07 PM.

[Wintersdark]

ArchSight, on 31 December 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Hey, if people have a reason to take a summoner they will.

From what I can see there's already enough reasons to take a summoner out to kill mechs with.

Summoner vs timber wolf, Summoner can equip a ultra ac20 or gauss rifle in the torso with 5 jump jets while the timber can't do the same.

But the Timberwolf can equip the same weapons loadout with more tonnage free. It can also choose to reduce the number of JJ's to be able to mount backup weapons alongside said UAC20/Gauss (which you want to do, poptarting with a UAC20 is absurdly silly)

Quote

Summoner can equip a ballistic or energy in the prime arms to get a quirk cool down decrease.

But the timberwolf can simply mount more, more efficiently.

Quote

Summoner runs faster than the timber wolf.

While speed is always good, this is a case where that speed comes at a cost: Both the summoner and Timberwolf would be better moving slower, with more tonnage available for armament (particularly the Timberwolf)

Quote

Summoner cockpit is close to the right arm enabling tighter right hand corner shots around cover to be able to dodge taking damage faster while peek firing on the right.

A mixed bag. It's good for the right, bad for the left, and a minor advantage either way.

Quote

Summoner weight 70 tons which enables it to be taken 3 times in one cw match with a 30 ton light in a 240 ton cap drop deck. Timber can only be taken twice in CW because there isn't a 15 ton mech in MWO to take.

As things stand, I'd far prefer my allies take fewer Timberwolves than more Summoners, simply because Stormcrows, at 55 tons, are flat out better mechs than Summoners.

Quote

Summoner has more weapon module slots. Edit: oh yeah and possibly double AMS in every build.

Yay, so it can mount an extra weapon module. This would be a great advantage, if it could mount enough weaponry to really matter.

None of these "advantages" come anywhere close to salvaging the Summoner as a good mech, let alone as a Timberwolf/Stormcrow competitor (or even a Hellbringer competitor). Not even close.

[GumbyC2C]

Wintersdark, on 31 December 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

None of these "advantages" come anywhere close to salvaging the Summoner as a good mech, let alone as a Timberwolf/Stormcrow competitor (or even a Hellbringer competitor). Not even close.

I have a lot of video evidence to support an alternate conclusion. Summoners are just fine in the hands of a capable pilot. But if PGI wants to buff my favorite mech, who am I to argue?

[Xythius]

GumbyC2C, on 31 December 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

I have a lot of video evidence to support an alternate conclusion. Summoners are just fine in the hands of a capable pilot. But if PGI wants to buff my favorite mech, who am I to argue?

I'm sure there were a few people that had similar anecdotal evidence that the Thunderbolt-5SS was a fantastic 'mech before the quirkening. Guess PGI should have left it alone then.

[Wintersdark]

GumbyC2C, on 31 December 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

I have a lot of video evidence to support an alternate conclusion. Summoners are just fine in the hands of a capable pilot. But if PGI wants to buff my favorite mech, who am I to argue?

You can do well in any mech. But the Summoner doesn't come even close to what several other mechs in it's weight class can do - it becomes a math problem. It simply lacks the flexibility, the hardpoints, the tonnage. It's "best builds" can all be run on other mechs - even lighter mechs - simply better.

Having gotten good scores in it is irrelevant. I've gotten awesome runs with a Nova sporting 12 flamers and 4 machine guns, this doesn't make it a good mech, or machine guns and flamers good weapons.

Hell, I have Mist Lynx runs with 600+ damage and 3 kills. That doesn't make the Mist Lynx good, it just means my opposition was bad, and I was lucky.

---

The above, actually, is a key point. Arguing the Summoner is great if you're ignored, which is basically where it's great, is terrible. If you're ignored long enough, you'll do awesome. A mech needs to do well when you're not being ignored, or only targetted by monkeys.

Edited by Wintersdark, 31 December 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Tordin]

I like the Summoner/ Thor, but I want to like it more. Theres something missing indeed. Except, kinda the DD variant, and half the prime variant, they dont have too good options regarding weapon backup in the chest areas. Good ideas to balance the mech though, but I dont think the JJ should be removable.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Ominipods would help him a lot

And i agree with everything you said here Bishop Steiner

For me Summoner is an iconic mech that i love pretty much...even more than the TW.

Most of people who see me on the battlefield know that i never run meta mechs or loadout and maybe start to know my tactic...i m an ambushers

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 December 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Ghost bear spy tyvm

NOOOOOO

Your cover was a doggie spy...

[Metus regem]

Wintersdark, on 31 December 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

It can also choose to reduce the number of JJ's to be able to mount backup weapons alongside said UAC20/Gauss (which you want to do, poptarting with a UAC20 is absurdly silly)

Hey now, I get head shots on Timber Wolves doing that with my Summoner.... Well let us be honest, it was my only head shot, and was a total fluke.

[Deathlike]

Xythius, on 31 December 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I'm sure there were a few people that had similar anecdotal evidence that the Thunderbolt-5SS was a fantastic 'mech before the quirkening. Guess PGI should have left it alone then.

Oh shi....

I said this a while ago, except at the time, I felt the Thunderbolt was medicore at best to the general public (I had zero problems before).

I guess "someone" is reading (hopefully not the man that should not be named isn't/hasn't read this).

[Bishop Steiner]

GumbyC2C, on 31 December 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

I have a lot of video evidence to support an alternate conclusion. Summoners are just fine in the hands of a capable pilot. But if PGI wants to buff my favorite mech, who am I to argue?

GumbyC2C, on 31 December 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

I have a lot of video evidence to support an alternate conclusion. Summoners are just fine in the hands of a capable pilot. But if PGI wants to buff my favorite mech, who am I to argue?

I've gotten 6 legit kill matches (not vultured) in my Vindicator. Guess that means the Vindie is a good match to Stormcrows and Shadowhawks......

[ArchSight]

Wintersdark, on 31 December 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

But the Timberwolf can equip the same weapons loadout with more tonnage free. It can also choose to reduce the number of JJ's to be able to mount backup weapons alongside said UAC20/Gauss (which you want to do, poptarting with a UAC20 is absurdly silly)

But the timberwolf can simply mount more, more efficiently.

While speed is always good, this is a case where that speed comes at a cost: Both the summoner and Timberwolf would be better moving slower, with more tonnage available for armament (particularly the Timberwolf)

A mixed bag. It's good for the right, bad for the left, and a minor advantage either way.

As things stand, I'd far prefer my allies take fewer Timberwolves than more Summoners, simply because Stormcrows, at 55 tons, are flat out better mechs than Summoners.

Yay, so it can mount an extra weapon module. This would be a great advantage, if it could mount enough weaponry to really matter.

None of these "advantages" come anywhere close to salvaging the Summoner as a good mech, let alone as a Timberwolf/Stormcrow competitor (or even a Hellbringer competitor). Not even close.

But #1
The timber wolf can't mount the same loadout if there is double AMS in it and it's not the same load out if your reducing the jump jets which causes the mech to not ascend as fast as 5 jj 's would. For brawling, double AMS is more useful than ECM due to the fact the mech can't hide in cover immediately at closer ranges. You've had to know that jump jetting can be used in none poptarting tactics. Remember the streak catapults jumping over mechs so their torso mounted weapons couldn't hit. JJ can be used for maneuver's that reduce or spread damage. Also JJ's still have a hit registration issue sometimes.

But#2 More weapons doesn't always equal better in MWO. Too many weapons can lead to heat issues.

More speed is better than more armament when it comes to being the first mech to getting the best position that gives cover and easy shots on their opponents.

Players can easily control which side they pick out of cover.

Stormcrows are different mech's than summoners because none have jump jets. There is no comparison which gives them different reasons or choices to being fielded by player's. Summoner's only have to compete against the jump jet capable timber wolf S variant because of similar advantages and weight class.

More weapon mods means the summoner can double down on it's quirks. Two Cool down weapon mod 's for both cool down prime arms or range and cool down.

Summoner doesn't have to compete against the hellbringer, stormcrow or mad dog due to them being different in advantages. Like i said there's plenty enough reasons to take the summoner out on the battlefield to kill mechs. Each mech having different reasons to be fielded is diversity. If a player chooses not to take the summoner out because they don't want to fight like it strengths implies is ok.

[Wintersdark]

The problem is that the Summoner does have to compete with all the clan mechs. JJ are an important differentiation but that puts the Summoner against a 5 ton heavier Timberwolf, which is a laughably bad comparison. If you need jump jets you go Timberwolf. If the jump jets are not critical, that immediately puts the Summoner behind the Stormcrow, Hellbringer, and Mad Dog - all lighter mechs at comparable speeds, the Stormcrow (15 tons lighter!) being faster, having better hitboxes, more pod space(thus simply better at any loadout), more hard point options... Just flat out better.

[Brody319]

If they aren't going to allow heavies, assaults, and mediums jump like they should with lots of JJs, they should just allow the Summoner, Kit Fox, Nova and Lynx to remove them. Keep the Hardwired JJs on the Timberwolf but every other mech should be allowed to remove them.

I don't care if it breaks lore, those chassis are going to keep sucking till they are allowed to remove them.

[1453 R]

I don't understand the folks who get all up in arms and demand, repeatedly, that anyone who doesn't believe the Summoner (or the Nova, or the Adder, or the Ice Ferret, or the oh-God-put-it-out-of-its-misery Mist Lynx) are perfectly serviceable 'Mechs who just need the right special snowflake pilot in them to bring out their True Potential is a complete blithering idiot.

Guys. We're not telling you that you suck. We're not belittling your good games in these suboptimal designs. We're not saying that everything you've ever done is a fluke.

We're trying to get Piranha to make bad 'Mechs better.

Shut up and take your buffs.