1236 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

InspectorG, on 01 January 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

I dont think the Dire would benefit from said upgrades. It could conceivably help laser builds but you would likely run out of space for big Dakka/ammo...kinda the whole point of 50tons of pods?????

I agree with you.

I'm just putting it out there as it's the primary mech that is already top tier that could somehow stand to gain from it.


The balance issue would be if the DWF could change it's engine along with Endo or FF, then it could go very big.

This is one of the reasons I think the engine restriction should stay, but that Endo or FF being addable/removable wouldn't be problematic on their own.


Even just adding the 5 tons from endo directly into engine would bring it up to a 340 a small sacrifice of 1.5 tons more and it's at a fairly ideal 350 engine.

[Xythius]

Metus regem, on 01 January 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Having Endo and or FF actually hurts the Dire Wolf, as it would run out of Crit space very quickly.... Hell it does that already....

I wouldn't even bother putting the upgrade on there actually (I would still like the option open for -all- Clan 'mechs however). My three DWF builds have all ran out of space before tonnage. My DWF-B has full armor and all crits filled and weighs in at 98.3 tons.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

I don't agree PGI should add Endo Steel to the Summoner or any omnimech that doesn't have it. That would be ugly.
They should balance their mechs in other ways (like the quirks).

Ugly how? All the top tier mechs already have it. (Or like the DW couldn't really use it)

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

If you are talking about unlocking ES (or FF) for only Summoner, I'm against. But unlocking it for all Clan Omnimechs? I see no big issue.

Um, at no point in this thread has it been about just the summoner, if endo were unlocked.

[Ozric]

OK, sold. Endo for everything!

[Chagatay]

After piloting them for awhile, I think they aren't all that bad. If an omnipod was available for 1-2 (prefer 2) nipple level energy hardpoints I think it would offer something different to the timbergod. After that give it the T-bolt treatment (or don't because that would be just silly and the scariest thing ever!).

[Wintersdark]

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

If you are talking about unlocking ES (or FF) for only Summoner, I'm against. But unlocking it for all Clan Omnimechs? I see no big issue.

unlocking for all clans has been the point all along. It helps the poor clan mechs, doesn't help the good ones. Even the Direwolf mentioned above doesn't benefit from ES, because it needs crit slots more than tonnage.

The fact of the matter is having ES and FF locked doesn't help balance the clans, because it only hurts already inferior chassis while not impacting the strongest ones.

Clans should not get dynamic slots, though: equip ES, and it goes where it goes. This serves to limit physical space in components and is used to subtly limit weapon combinations that are possible.

If a player elects to remove ES to be able to, say, mount an LBX20,all the power to him - he's paying a several ton premium for that.

[michaelius]

1453 R, on 31 December 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

I don't understand the folks who get all up in arms and demand, repeatedly, that anyone who doesn't believe the Summoner (or the Nova, or the Adder, or the Ice Ferret, or the oh-God-put-it-out-of-its-misery Mist Lynx) are perfectly serviceable 'Mechs who just need the right special snowflake pilot in them to bring out their True Potential is a complete blithering idiot.

Guys. We're not telling you that you suck. We're not belittling your good games in these suboptimal designs. We're not saying that everything you've ever done is a fluke.

We're trying to get Piranha to make bad 'Mechs better.

Shut up and take your buffs.

In the end PGI has access to server wide detailed statistics for every mech so they can see from that how close summoner is to magical 50% win ratio at each player skill level.

[Wintersdark]

michaelius, on 01 January 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

In the end PGI has access to server wide detailed statistics for every mech so they can see from that how close summoner is to magical 50% win ratio at each player skill level.

This is impossible - clearly, you don't understand how Elo works.

If you pilot a Summoner most of the time (compared to your other heavy mechs) you're Elo score will converge to match you in a Summoner. As such, you'll have a roughly the same WLR as if you piloted a Timberwolf all the time - just at a lower Elo rating. They'd have no way to compare them, however. Keeping per-chassis Elo ratings would help, as then they could compare the delta between two mechs on a pilot by pilot basis (Out of X pilots, what is the average Elo delta between the TBR and SMN?).

That doesn't happen though, and is another thread entirely by itself.

[ColdPsyker1]

I think the quirks the summoner has already are a step in the right direction, but could be taken even further.

It seems most arguments in this thread are vs Timberwolves, and that if you want t a jumping Clan heavy, just take a Timberwolf S.

Simple solution- give the Summoner jumpjet quirks.
Something like:
+50% thrust
-50% heat
-50% falling damage

And if yall scream "POPTART META WILL MAKE A COMEBACK"

Just remember that the Summoner doesnt really have the tonnage to make the 2 PPC AC10 poptart builds of old.

This would give it a distinctive role from the TImber- do you want raw firepower, or agility?

[Metus regem]

ColdPsyker1, on 01 January 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

I think the quirks the summoner has already are a step in the right direction, but could be taken even further.

It seems most arguments in this thread are vs Timberwolves, and that if you want t a jumping Clan heavy, just take a Timberwolf S.

Simple solution- give the Summoner jumpjet quirks.
Something like:
+50% thrust
-50% heat
-50% falling damage

And if yall scream "POPTART META WILL MAKE A COMEBACK"

Just remember that the Summoner doesnt really have the tonnage to make the 2 PPC AC10 poptart builds of old.

This would give it a distinctive role from the TImber- do you want raw firepower, or agility?

Not to mention the cUAC 10 is a DOT weapon....

[Xythius]

Wintersdark, on 01 January 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

This is impossible - clearly, you don't understand how Elo works.

If you pilot a Summoner most of the time (compared to your other heavy mechs) you're Elo score will converge to match you in a Summoner. As such, you'll have a roughly the same WLR as if you piloted a Timberwolf all the time - just at a lower Elo rating. They'd have no way to compare them, however. Keeping per-chassis Elo ratings would help, as then they could compare the delta between two mechs on a pilot by pilot basis (Out of X pilots, what is the average Elo delta between the TBR and SMN?).

That doesn't happen though, and is another thread entirely by itself.

I've determined that Elo is a myth, weight class matching a fantasy. The Matchmaker algorithm is entirely a function of pure spite and malice.

[KuroNyra]

What the Summoner need before everything else is a Heat reduction. That thing was theoricly unable to overheat.
Yet in this game one PPC can make it shutdown if fired more than 2 time. That's ridiculous!
It's like a Catapult running out of LRM ammo after firing 2 salvo or a Jaeggermech with no ballistic slot at all.

[Yokaiko]

Xythius, on 01 January 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

I've determined that Elo is a myth, weight class matching a fantasy. The Matchmaker algorithm is entirely a function of pure spite and malice.

Close

The matchmaker has WAY to many variables to deal with and not close to enough players to do it with.

But basically yeah, its useless.

[Xythius]

Yokaiko, on 01 January 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Close

The matchmaker has WAY to many variables to deal with and not close to enough players to do it with.

But basically yeah, its useless.

It's actually quoted from Wintersdark's sig. Which is why I quoted him explaining the Elo system.

Little bit o' irony.

Edited by Xythius, 01 January 2015 - 04:12 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

ColdPsyker1, on 01 January 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

I think the quirks the summoner has already are a step in the right direction, but could be taken even further.

It seems most arguments in this thread are vs Timberwolves, and that if you want t a jumping Clan heavy, just take a Timberwolf S.

Simple solution- give the Summoner jumpjet quirks.
Something like:
+50% thrust
-50% heat
-50% falling damage

And if yall scream "POPTART META WILL MAKE A COMEBACK"

Just remember that the Summoner doesnt really have the tonnage to make the 2 PPC AC10 poptart builds of old.

This would give it a distinctive role from the TImber- do you want raw firepower, or agility?

no, it has to "settle" for erppc/gauss........

KuroNyra, on 01 January 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

What the Summoner need before everything else is a Heat reduction. That thing was theoricly unable to overheat.
Yet in this game one PPC can make it shutdown if fired more than 2 time. That's ridiculous!
It's like a Catapult running out of LRM ammo after firing 2 salvo or a Jaeggermech with no ballistic slot at all.

well, the actual TT Catapult did only have 8 shots per launcher.......

[Wintersdark]

Well...

Spoiler

Yokaiko, on 01 January 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:

Close

The matchmaker has WAY to many variables to deal with and not close to enough players to do it with.

But basically yeah, its useless.

As much as I like to mock it...

It does work, exactly as advertised, within the limits imposed on it with regards to player count. This means it doesn't work well at all for those above or below the mass of the bell curve, but it does work pretty well otherwise - the vast bulk of players, after they've got a decent number of matches in, will be matched with and against relatively comparable players. By metrics Karl shared in his thread, 90% of matches are spawned with a very low Elo spread between teams and within teams (100pts max). That's pretty damn good. But, as you said, player counts of players online and searching for a match right when you are are critical to how well it functions.

It works far better than having nothing at all though. The absolute worst case scenario for the MM is just making a random match - that is, exactly the same as not having it at all.

But, I digress. This is a Summoner (and by extension, clan tech) thread, not a MM thread.

Anyways, the point is that game metrics simply don't exist to quantify player skill outside of their Elo scores, and the Elo scores are based on your performance in whatever chassis you use within that weight class. So, without being able to isolate player skill, you can't use those metrics to find chassis quality, only how much it's used.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 01 January 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Well...

Spoiler

As much as I like to mock it...

It does work, exactly as advertised, within the limits imposed on it with regards to player count. This means it doesn't work well at all for those above or below the mass of the bell curve, but it does work pretty well otherwise - the vast bulk of players, after they've got a decent number of matches in, will be matched with and against relatively comparable players. By metrics Karl shared in his thread, 90% of matches are spawned with a very low Elo spread between teams and within teams (100pts max). That's pretty damn good. But, as you said, player counts of players online and searching for a match right when you are are critical to how well it functions.

It works far better than having nothing at all though. The absolute worst case scenario for the MM is just making a random match - that is, exactly the same as not having it at all.

But, I digress. This is a Summoner (and by extension, clan tech) thread, not a MM thread.

Anyways, the point is that game metrics simply don't exist to quantify player skill outside of their Elo scores, and the Elo scores are based on your performance in whatever chassis you use within that weight class. So, without being able to isolate player skill, you can't use those metrics to find chassis quality, only how much it's used.

who da crap talking matchmaker and elo on my summoner thread?

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 January 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

who da crap talking matchmaker and elo on my summoner thread?

In spoilers! The Elo part was relevant, however, as the previous poster was saying PGI could simply look at Summoner metrics at different levels of player skill vs. other mechs. Sadly, that's not possible.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 01 January 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

In spoilers! The Elo part was relevant, however, as the previous poster was saying PGI could simply look at Summoner metrics at different levels of player skill vs. other mechs. Sadly, that's not possible.

[Deathlike]

Lucky for you, the time for evaluating the Summoner is now...