1236 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Detriitus, on 09 March 2015 - 01:18 AM, said:

Do you mean SRMs?

Nope, I meant LRMs. SRMs spread too much at range anyhow. Unless they get a tighter pattern, for me SRM and LB-X rnage boosts are all but useless. But while I prefer the 4-500 meter range bracket for my LRM MDD, having the ability (with my lvl 5 rang emodule) to hit out at 100 gives me an edge that a lot of people still seem to miss. Having LRMs that reach 1200-1300 before the module? Situational, but useful. Especially on Alpine and Caustic.

red devil2, on 09 March 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

I own this mech since the clan invasion but I never liked it. Few days ago I began the grind and I enjoyed it with GR and 4x ML. Usual dmg was between 450 and 800 (basic skills). Not much indeed but still acceptable.

It could benefit from few minor quirks but I don't think is as bad as some ppl here say. Or, probably, most of you try to play in a way that does not fit it.

Or some of us would like to see some Mechs, especially "OMNI"mechs (aka can play any role), that can do something besides 1 extremely boring build?

BTW...when the stock weapons a chassis comes with "does not fit it"..... that should be the first hint there is an issue with the implementation. Doesn't mean the stock loadouts should be best, but they SHOULD fit, since you know, that's how they were built?

But it'd be real nice to have a reason to see PPCs on Clam Mechs, or any ballistics beside Gauss (not counting dakkaWhales)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 March 2015 - 05:20 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 March 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

You realize he said most IS heavies, and there are many more heavies than the 1N and the Thunderbolts. I would take a Summoner over the other Dragons, Orions, Cataphracts, and Catapults and that is before it gets quirks. Granted, I'm still of the mind that the Mad Dog outside of abusing SSRMs is the worst Clan heavy, even then, it has a leg up on over half the IS heavies as well.

Which is another point where we diverge. I find the Mad Dog to be a very very good mech. Still secondary to the Timby, for sure, and the Hellbringer's ECM give it a special princess niche, but the Mad Dog is a solid little mech, though the STs are a little easy to hit. Problem I see most people have is they want to go nuts with SRMs or SSRMs...with fragile STs.

6x LRM5 + 4x EMLaser, 2x LB-5X+ 4xSRM4, etc all are builds I find allow me to operate and usually keep my STs pretty safe. (And no, I don't hide in back with the lrms, but use them as mid range fire support, usually about 4-500 meters, getting my own locks with my TAG.

I see a lot more MDDs in CW dropdecks than SMNs.

Matthew Ace, on 09 March 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

In response to the most recent reply by Bishop above: Not too bad.. This is what I would do instead, while keeping to the restriction of locked internals type:

Base Chassis
-JJ unlocked
-Medium Movement Archetype
-Increased Accel/Decel/Turn
-Increased Torso twist range
-Increased Arm range

1. Thor Prime

RA "energy sniper arm"
-12.5% energy heat
+10% energy cooldown
+12.5% energy range

LA "ballistic skirmisher arm"
+10% ballistic cooldown
+10% ballistic velocity

LT
+10% missile velocity
+10% missile cooldown

Set bonus:
Doubled weapon quirks
+20% cerPPC damage


2. Thor B

Arms:
+5% missile velocity each
+5% missile range each
+5% missile cooldown each

LT:
+5% missile velocity
+5% missile cooldown

Set Bonus:
+10% missile range
+5% missile cooldown


3. Thor C

RA
-12.5% energy heat
-12.5% laser duration

LA "brawling arm"
-12.5% ballistic cooldown
+20% UAC20 velocity
-10% UAC20 heat

LT
+12.5% missile cooldown

Set Bonus
All weapon quirks doubled


4. Thor D

Arms
-7.5% laser duration each
-7.5% energy heat each

No idea what to give for torsos. AMS range?

Set Bonus
-10% laser duration
-10% energy heat


Well somewhere along those lines anyway. PGI should leverage omnimech set bonuses IMO.

Yeah, I intend for it to be locked to the sections, but after 4 hours of beach volleyball, and then swimming in the ocean for an hour, was too tired and lazy to break it down like that, lol.

Kmieciu, on 09 March 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

People who want an unlocked Endo or JJ on the Summoner crack me up.

They don't realize that quirks can give them so much more tonnage.

A simple laser duration quirk can change your LLs into LPLs. It's just like getting 2 free tonnes per laser. A quirk that doubles your UAC20 fire rate essentially gives you an additional 10 tonnes more of firepower.

Why do you think a Dragon-1N is so powerful? It's because it has the DPS of 6xAC5 for the weight of 2. That's basically 32 tonnes of free weapons.

Summoner needs better cooling and more DPS. Let him keep his unique character - as an agile jumping mech that doesn't need to boat ERML.

and where does one find the tonnage for the ammo on that UAC20? People who rely on gimmicky quirks as the cureall for everything that ails ya, they crack me up. And usually miss the point. Quirks, when used to the extremes you are talking about, across the board, usually end up causing more weird balance spikes. (The FS9-A, TDR-9S and DRG-1N being good examples.)

The point of Endo, is it puts all omnis on a much more level playing field, only benefits the mediocre to bad chassis overall, and then you can use those precious quirks, in much smaller amounts to finish whatever tweaks are needed.

Instead of them being ridiculously heavy handed Buffs that are so out of whack at times as to be the polar opposite of Paul's nerfs.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 March 2015 - 05:30 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 March 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

You realize he said most IS heavies, and there are many more heavies than the 1N and the Thunderbolts. I would take a Summoner over the other Dragons, Orions, Cataphracts, and Catapults and that is before it gets quirks. Granted, I'm still of the mind that the Mad Dog outside of abusing SSRMs is the worst Clan heavy, even then, it has a leg up on over half the IS heavies as well.

Here's the probñlem I have carrying about this comparo. The epeen swinging match between IS and Clan balance should not even enter the equation until there is a single reason for a Clanner to choose a Summoner instead of a different Clan Heavy. Outside of people like me who just have always loved the mech, there isn't.

Once there is some parity between the Clan Chassis, then we have a solid baseline for establishing and tweaking balance between Clans and IS chassis.

Right now, due to the pre-existing balance issues, and herky jerky Jekyll and Hyde nature of the Quirks, the Bell Curve for Balance looks more like an EKG readout.

mogs01gt, on 09 March 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

No it simply sounds like you havent played the Thor enough or do not own the TBR-S as a comparison( I have both)..Your build as an example. The TBR-s does it better.
SMN-PRIME
TBR-S

I have hundreds of drops in my Thor. It has issues. Hell it cant even handle the 4erMLs in a battle.

Not for long. ANd der god Don't even try to have a second weapon system with a Wubboner. Before all the nerfs to MPLs, used to runs 4x MPL and an LB-X in the torso, and it was solid. Now just 3 Wub volleys and you are near shut down.

[charov]

Bishop, we are forced to be boring. Our ballistics suck (exc the GR) so we play laser vomit and almost nothing else.

I enjoyed the summoner with a gr just under its cockpit. It's a bit more fragile, but can snipe, jump snipe and brawl quite well.
This mech has a lot in common with the gargoyle. Both are overburdened by jj or engine but it's very easy to achieve good results with both.

So, do they need love? Yep, maybe better heat dissipation for both, more internal for the goyle and perhaps more agility and something for the jj for the summoner. Nothing else.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 March 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

Not for long. ANd der god Don't even try to have a second weapon system with a Wubboner. Before all the nerfs to MPLs, used to runs 4x MPL and an LB-X in the torso, and it was solid. Now just 3 Wub volleys and you are near shut down.

The reason those "4" CMPLs run hot with 14 DHS is because they are more akin to a "snub nose" IS LPL that only weighs two tons.

Example:

• 4x CMPL is 32 damage at 330m for 24 heat (8 tons)

Is most directly comparable to:

• 3x IS LPLs 33 damage at 365m for 21 heat (21 tons)

Because it is 50% more range than:

• 5 IS MPLs - 30 damage at 220m for 20 heat (10 tons)

If you tried to run 3x LPLs on an IS mech, with no quirks, and only 14 DHS - wouldn't you expect to run similarly as hot?



This is an honest question, you know I already agree with unlocking Endo (and Ferro for what it's worth, not sure why you don't agree with that) and I'm really looking to have a civil discourse with you on this.



I'll make you a deal:

If you can put up an IS heavy mech that:


> Has similar high speed & Agility (80+kph, min 2 JJs)
> High survivability (Must compete vs. Clan XL, so STD engine or god-like hitboxes)
> Runs some kind of pulse laser solution that is 30 damage alpha, at 330m range
> Has LB-10X w/ 3 tons ammo
> Total 14 DHS or higher (stock SMN DHS)
> Same armor load as your Wubboner build (I'm guessing around 422)


Then I will leave this thread and not post in it again.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 March 2015 - 09:19 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Your posts always ignore quirks. While it does not meet your LB-10x requirement the 4 x LPL TDR-9SE can mount a 300XL and run 2 JJs and contribute more than a Summoner can.

[mogs01gt]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

I'll make you a deal:
If you can put up an IS heavy mech that:
> Has similar high speed & Agility (80+kph, min 2 JJs)
> High survivability (Must compete vs. Clan XL, so STD engine or god-like hitboxes)
> Runs some kind of pulse laser solution that is 30 damage alpha, at 330m range
> Has LB-10X w/ 3 tons ammo
> Total 14 DHS or higher (stock SMN DHS)
> Same armor load as your Wubboner build (I'm guessing around 422)
Then I will leave this thread and not post in it again.

CTF-3D(C)
No pulse lasers and running hotter.

There are still more issues with the Thor other than hardpoints:
Height
offset head
distance between head and arms
left CT easily removed
poor torso vertical movement

Edited by mogs01gt, 09 March 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[RedDevil]

I know removing the JJ's would make the Summoner so much better, but something inside me would die every time I saw it without them.

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 09 March 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Your posts always ignore quirks. While it does not meet your LB-10x requirement the 4 x LPL TDR-9SE can mount a 300XL and run 2 JJs and contribute more than a Summoner can.

Irrelevant.

That's not the build Bishop wants to run, he wants a big ballistic.

Also, I'm sorry but TDRs with XLs are bad. I have wrecked enough of them at this point that my opinion will not change. That build is not good.

It certainly does not have the Summoners survivability by any stretch of the imagination.

Try again.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 March 2015 - 10:23 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kain Thul, on 09 March 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Your posts always ignore quirks. While it does not meet your LB-10x requirement the 4 x LPL TDR-9SE can mount a 300XL and run 2 JJs and contribute more than a Summoner can.

That's because quirks work very differently depending on the mech and its hardpoints.

Let's assume the TDR-5SS and SDR-5V have the same MPL quirks.
The TDR-5SS can abuse great quirks and a great weapon, the SDR-5V can not. This is actually part of the problem with quirks is not only are they haphazard in some cases, they have really not leveled the playing field like they were supposed to, just changed which mechs are the best (and given them new toys to abuse).

Bishop Steiner, on 09 March 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

Here's the probñlem I have carrying about this comparo. The epeen swinging match between IS and Clan balance should not even enter the equation until there is a single reason for a Clanner to choose a Summoner instead of a different Clan Heavy. Outside of people like me who just have always loved the mech, there isn't.

Once there is some parity between the Clan Chassis, then we have a solid baseline for establishing and tweaking balance between Clans and IS chassis.

Right now, due to the pre-existing balance issues, and herky jerky Jekyll and Hyde nature of the Quirks, the Bell Curve for Balance looks more like an EKG readout.

Honestly I'm ignoring CW for balance, because that is a whole other ballgame. For normal drops, you can't balance by assuming there is this faction vacuum. Summoners compete against all heavies in usage, not just Timber Wolves. Summoners may not be used as much but I see them more than I see Quickdraws or non-1N Dragons. I see them about on par with the Cataphracts I see, or missile Catapults.

Is the Timby vs Summoner comparison and the state of Hoverjets™ part of the reason people don't use the Summoner? Probably, but it is still a false dichotomy, I have yet to fully master them but that is simply because the heavy queue is always ridiculous but I don't think it was as bad as some of you make it out to be, that is, it is far from being in the state the missile Catapults are.

[Mcgral18]

Kain Thul, on 09 March 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Your posts always ignore quirks. While it does not meet your LB-10x requirement the 4 x LPL TDR-9SE can mount a 300XL and run 2 JJs and contribute more than a Summoner can.

Not to mention, the IS mech doesn't need to use an oversized engine, which is exactly what he's requesting.

[Ultimax]

mogs01gt, on 09 March 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

CTF-3D(C)
No pulse lasers and running hotter.

Does not meet the criteria runnning hot and not meeting the total range criteria, but thank you for giving it a good try.

[Kain Demos]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Irrelevant.

That's not the build Bishop wants to run, he wants a big ballistic.

Also, I'm sorry but TDRs with XLs are bad. I have wrecked enough of them at this point that my opinion will not change. That build is not good.

It certainly does not have the Summoners survivability by any stretch of the imagination.

Try again.

Once again XLs in TDRs was bad before quirks---have you seen how much armor+structure they have now in those STs?

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 09 March 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Not to mention, the IS mech doesn't need to use an oversized engine, which is exactly what he's requesting.

I gave 13kph extra to the summoner to allow for engine drop.

But keep moving the goal posts and ignoring the point.

Speed and range are important, please stop pretending they are not.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

Speed and range are important, please stop pretending they are not.

It depends on the context.

Speed can be ignored at times. I've stupidly quick grinded out the Dire Wolves this weekend... I have garbage speed but eliminated more or less whatever I could stare at. If you're standing around and camping, speed is irrelevant.

Range matters if you are poking each other frequently at a distance. The problem is moot once the target closes the gap. The "range" that used to be matter starts to work against you as Clan weapons gain quite a bit of heat once range is eliminated as a factor.

It depends on the situation and once the primary benefit is negated, you see a lot more flaws how they can be exploited.

[Metus regem]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

It depends on the context.

Speed can be ignored at times. I've stupidly quick grinded out the Dire Wolves this weekend... I have garbage speed but eliminated more or less whatever I could stare at. If you're standing around and camping, speed is irrelevant.

Range matters if you are poking each other frequently at a distance. The problem is moot once the target closes the gap. The "range" that used to be matter starts to work against you as Clan weapons gain quite a bit of heat once range is eliminated as a factor.

It depends on the situation and once the primary benefit is negated, you see a lot more flaws how they can be exploited.

Yup.... killed enough Clan Mechs in CW this weekend, using my "weak IS tech".... Just didn't play the range game, I forced them to play the brawling game, where I know most clan mechs are weak...

Hell my King Crab with a stock load out killed Dire Wolves in CW, I just forced them into a close range dule, and used my stupid fast twist rate and twist range to my advantage, to put their damage all over the place, while I dropped 40 point bombs into their CT...

Mind you, I couldn't take on more than one at a time... but I took the IS mechs and beat the "better" clan mechs, it's about forcing them to play to your strenghts, not theirs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

It depends on the context.

Speed can be ignored at times. I've stupidly quick grinded out the Dire Wolves this weekend... I have garbage speed but eliminated more or less whatever I could stare at. If you're standing around and camping, speed is irrelevant.

Range matters if you are poking each other frequently at a distance. The problem is moot once the target closes the gap. The "range" that used to be matter starts to work against you as Clan weapons gain quite a bit of heat once range is eliminated as a factor.

It depends on the situation and once the primary benefit is negated, you see a lot more flaws how they can be exploited.

Range and Speed are actually connected and part of the reason brawling Assaults have been sort of a joke within the Mechwarrior series, the poor Atlas has always suffered for this reason.

If you have short range, speed is a necessity which means good assaults are going to be long range designs outside of pure brawling maps like good ol MW4 Innercity. Now if the maps were Alpine big with less open spaces like Alpine, lights that could effectively range (like 2 ERLL Ravens or the really old 2 PPC Cicada) would be extremely dangerous because they could abuse both range and speed. Since maps aren't big enough though, there is a definite tendency for increased speed tending towards shorter range. This is also due to short range weapons tending to have lower tonnage requirements and being more efficient overall.

The reason Clan mechs are so good though is because they can exploit both range and speed, without really sacrificing firepower or durability like is the typical trade-off. Dat Clan XL...

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

It depends on the context.

Speed can be ignored at times. I've stupidly quick grinded out the Dire Wolves this weekend... I have garbage speed but eliminated more or less whatever I could stare at. If you're standing around and camping, speed is irrelevant.

Speed matters when you are a heavy mech and intend to brawl.

It's not as important when you are a mid to long range area denial nightmare. (I'm assuming this is the context you mention)


If I have a choice between playing any of my IS heavies and travelling at 70KPH or breaking out my Warhawk, my choice will be Warhawk every single time. It's not even a second thought.



So if you want to compare, the Dire Wolf is a bad comparison - because I'm quite confident you didn't grind XP on it with a brawling loadout that has a 300m functional range.


If you did, then I will take your word for it (because I trust you) and send you a case of beer to your house.

Deathlike, on 09 March 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Range matters if you are poking each other frequently at a distance. The problem is moot once the target closes the gap. The "range" that used to be matter starts to work against you as Clan weapons gain quite a bit of heat once range is eliminated as a factor.

It depends on the situation and once the primary benefit is negated, you see a lot more flaws how they can be exploited.

If you can negate range and "make it moot", and want to say that it's not important then Bishop's build can switch to 200m CERSLAS and add 6 DHS to run totally ice cold.

For reference thats ONLY 20M shy of an IS MPL that I could have on a Cataphract, except it weighs 0.5 tons instead of 2 tons...






What I think we have in general here, and the thing I've been working to change, is a perception issue.


"Clan Medium Pulse" does not equate to "IS Medium Pulse"

Their names are similar, but their ranges & damage per ton are so different you have to compare the Clan version to the IS LPL to actually be accurate.




So the option to run cool is there, you only need to give up range which so many of you keep telling me "can be negated".

[mogs01gt]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Does not meet the criteria runnning hot and not meeting the total range criteria, but thank you for giving it a good try.

I found one that one.....
GRF-1N

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 09 March 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Speed matters when you are a heavy mech and intend to brawl.

It's not as important when you are a mid to long range area denial nightmare. (I'm assuming this is the context you mention)


If I have a choice between playing any of my IS heavies and travelling at 70KPH or breaking out my Warhawk, my choice will be Warhawk every single time. It's not even a second thought.

I tend to brawl ANYTIME it happens. It doesn't matter what mech.

I'd rather troll a Warhawk with an IS Heavy (probably Thunderbolt)... I've annoyed enough of them with any other mech, and I love teasing them. It's the utter fact that it's not a Direwolf that empowers me to kill them.

Quote

So if you want to compare, the Dire Wolf is a bad comparison - because I'm quite confident you didn't grind XP on it with a brawling loadout that has a 300m functional range.


If you did, then I will take your word for it (because I trust you) and send you a case of beer to your house.

I brawl with dual Gauss on it. Clan LBX20s? Ahahahahahahahahahahah no. There is something with a low cooldown on high damaging FLD weapons that makes me wonder why MW4 wasn't somewhat used as a reference to properly balance said mechs.

Quote

If you can negate range and "make it moot", and want to say that it's not important then Bishop's build can switch to 200m CERSLAS and add 6 DHS to run totally ice cold.

For reference thats ONLY 20M shy of an IS MPL that I could have on a Cataphract, except it weighs 0.5 tons instead of 2 tons...

That feels like a waste of a Summoner.

The Cataphract... I don't even know what to say about it anymore. I can't think what to do with it, and I'm not even sure the upcoming dynamic hardpoint revamp would work. Maybe I'll just rebuild it as a pseudo brawler. It's just depressing.

Quote

What I think we have in general here, and the thing I've been working to change, is a perception issue.


"Clan Medium Pulse" does not equate to "IS Medium Pulse"

Their names are similar, but their ranges & damage per ton are so different you have to compare the Clan version to the IS LPL to actually be accurate.

TBH, I compare the overall idea of a build to comparable ones that function similarly. Unfortunately Clan Tech still has the edge there. While part of it is a perception issue, it's more of complete picture issue that many sides don't quite argue or understand the semantics about it.

Quote

So the option to run cool is there, you only need to give up range which so many of you keep telling me "can be negated".

It's actually easier to remove 1 CERMED off of a laservomit build and it "magically" runs cooler. After dealing with Clan Tech for a while now, I've rethought and reevaluated a lot of what I understood about IS Tech. There's still some excellent IS variants, but the situation requires quite a bit of nuance to master. It's easier to define a role for the Clan Mech. It's harder to maximize the niche like the ever popular Dakka Dragon is trying to fill a role for.