1236 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

The problem with locked ES/FF is simple.

It's a terrible balancing factor. All it does is create enormous inequities between Clan chassis.

As things stand, it's extremely difficult to balance IS vs. Clans simply because there is such a wide gap between good clan chassis and bad clan chassis. The lack of ES/FF is a very major part of this.

Quirks worked for IS Mechs. Not perfectly, of course, but they certainly made a whole lot of more chassis reasonably balanced.

Quirks could work for Clans, and IMHO *IF* they went that route they ought to apply them to the CT's only to differentiate the variants.

But I don't think that's a good way to go, and here's why:

In Lore, it's really the Clan Mechs that are supposed to be flexible. Currently, that's not the case: IS Mechs are the really flexible chassis. However, quirks work on IS Mechs to reduce the variety of load outs within a specific variant by making it very good at particular load outs. This tends to bring IS Mechs to a more "stock-esque" feel.

Unlocking ES/FF on all clan chassis but *not* seriously quirking them allows them flexibility without the extreme strength in a particular area.

Most likely, this change would result in Clans being overall stronger, as you'd have a lot more Mechs competing with the timberwolves and stormcrows. So, I'd expect to see further tweaks after that.

I think quirking the weaker Clan chassis in the way the is chassis where quirked is a bad idea that reduces the flavour differences between the two factions.

[Deathlike]

Vote for better Left Summoner Nipple Omnipods now!

Edited by Deathlike, 21 December 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Nick86]

hybrid black, on 21 December 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

1 er PPC 1 gauss =1000 + damage matches with 3-4 kills in the hands of a good player

I don't think you can really imply that Bishop is a bad player...

New here?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I would try to avoid solutions like unlocking endo/ferro/engine as much as possible. I think it just opens a whole new can of worms.

I like quirk approaches, but honestly my preferred method would be additional omnipods. In particular, a new left torso with 3 energy mounted where the trashcan missile launcher would be, but smaller, slightly bigger profile than the narc tube.

I think this addresses two of the biggest issues for the summoner. Limited hard points and low slung laser weaponry (strong point for Clan mechs).

The other thing I would consider, I only mention because we've already broken construction rules for this. Rework Clan jump jets to be installed in zero, half(round up), or full capacity to predetermined locations for all mechs capable of taking them. This would help out the over equipped mechs which all fall into the "meh" territory of Clan mechs and be an extra one ton on the Timber Wolves that use JJs.

Then wait to see if further adjustments are needed.

Edited by Rouken, 21 December 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[SweetJackal]

To put it simply, it all comes down to JJ not giving the amount of mobility in MWO as it's tonnage and crit spaces pay for. This is true not just for the Summoner but every single mech in the game, even light mechs.

No air control, no omnidirectional thrust, weak thrust mechanics. Even worse is that the 'scaling' given to JJ has made a good number of low tier jumping chassis even worse as mounting 4 JJ isn't effective enough to reach a good number of places. For JJs to be as good as they have been you are mounting close to 6 on anything larger than a Blackjack.

[The Boz]

Wintersdark, on 21 December 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The problem with locked ES/FF is simple.

It's a terrible balancing factor. All it does is create enormous inequities between Clan chassis.

As things stand, it's extremely difficult to balance IS vs. Clans simply because there is such a wide gap between good clan chassis and bad clan chassis. The lack of ES/FF is a very major part of this.

Quirks worked for IS Mechs. Not perfectly, of course, but they certainly made a whole lot of more chassis reasonably balanced.

Quirks could work for Clans, and IMHO *IF* they went that route they ought to apply them to the CT's only to differentiate the variants.

But I don't think that's a good way to go, and here's why:

In Lore, it's really the Clan Mechs that are supposed to be flexible. Currently, that's not the case: IS Mechs are the really flexible chassis. However, quirks work on IS Mechs to reduce the variety of load outs within a specific variant by making it very good at particular load outs. This tends to bring IS Mechs to a more "stock-esque" feel.

Unlocking ES/FF on all clan chassis but *not* seriously quirking them allows them flexibility without the extreme strength in a particular area.

Most likely, this change would result in Clans being overall stronger, as you'd have a lot more Mechs competing with the timberwolves and stormcrows. So, I'd expect to see further tweaks after that.

I think quirking the weaker Clan chassis in the way the is chassis where quirked is a bad idea that reduces the flavour differences between the two factions.

"Unlocking" is one thing, but please... try to come up with one theoretically workable Clan mech that, given the choice, would opt NOT to get 7-slot ES and FF.
Hint: There are literally zero IS mechs that use standard structure instead of ES for 14 slots.

Edited by The Boz, 21 December 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[Metus regem]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

"Unlocking" is one thing, but please... try to come up with one theoretically workable Clan mech that, given the choice, would opt NOT to get 7-slot ES and FF.
Hint: There are literally zero IS mechs that use standard structure instead of ES for 14 slots.

Albatross
Annihilator
Atlas
Atlas II


I can go through them all, but those are the first 4 IS assualt mechs that do not use it....

[The Boz]

Metus regem, on 21 December 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Albatross
Annihilator
Atlas
Atlas II


I can go through them all, but those are the first 4 IS assualt mechs that do not use it....

...in this game. You neutron-star-level denselord.

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

...in this game. You neutron-star-level denselord.

Yet the Clams are all stuck with what they have.

That inherently means the bad chassis' will be ignored, as we can clearly see is happening. Do it as a case by case basis, but some certainly need that ability.

[The Boz]

Mcgral18, on 21 December 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

Yet the Clams are all stuck with what they have.

That inherently means the bad chassis' will be ignored, as we can clearly see is happening. Do it as a case by case basis, but some certainly need that ability.

Do you want all non-light Clams on the level of Doomcrow/Timbergod/DireWhale? Because that's how you get that. And then where will the IS-Clan balance be?

[Khobai]

Quote

The problem with locked ES/FF is simple.

It's a terrible balancing factor. All it does is create enormous inequities between Clan chassis.

Its only a terrible balancing factor if its not balanced.

Clan mechs without ES/FF should get 1 extra quirk for each they dont have. So the Summoner should get 1 bonus quirk compared to the Timberwolf. The Hellbringer should get 2 bonus quirks compared to the Timberwolf since it has neither.

Also I think +5% speed is pretty underappreciated. Thats a really nice quirk. The Summoner is almost in a good place right now. At worst its tier 3.

Edited by Khobai, 21 December 2014 - 03:33 PM.

[The Boz]

Khobai, on 21 December 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

The Hellbringer should get 2 bonus quirks compared to the Timberwolf since it has neither.

...and then it'll be placed in a tier higher because it has ECM, getting 1 less quirk. And then it'll get one less quirk because it can get ECM.

[Khobai]

Quote

...and then it'll be placed in a tier higher because it has ECM, getting 1 less quirk. And then it'll get one less quirk because it can get ECM.

Not seeing how the Hellbringer is in a higher tier than the Timberwolf.

Timberwolf should get Tier 1 quirks, -1 for JJs
Hellbringer should get Tier 2 quirks, -1 for ECM, and +2 for no ES/FF
Summoner should get Tier 3 quirks -1 for JJs, and +1 for no ES

Because of omnipod swapping I dont think most clan mechs are worse than tier 3. Although maybe the clan lights are bad enough to be tier 4 or tier 5.

Edited by Khobai, 21 December 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[KuroNyra]

One of the thing I liked the Summoner about

Quote

Victor grinned as his computer assessed the damage to his enemy. When he'd first encountered the
unusual 'Mech, the computer had tried to tag it as a Warhammer, then as a Marauder, and then as a
Victor. Realizing he'd never seen its like before, Victor commanded the computer to record all the
data on the machine under the name "Thor," which he chose because the 'Mech had a heavy
autocannon in one arm and a PPC in the other. Thunder and lightning ... just the stuff the god Thor
used to toss about.

The Summoner had a decent firepower and was dangerous on the battlefield. But his main advantage that it could literraly never overheat unless swiming in Lava.
Here, it is not the case, the Summoner got a firepower very disappointing, not enought space for the ammo. And is holt like fire.


Clans Mech are HOTTER than IS Mech, that's something that should be changed, at least for some of them. The Summoner is one of them. That mech got little firepower, give him at least the power to use it...

Edited by KuroNyra, 21 December 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[The Boz]

...not said it's in a tier higher than the Timberwolf, but that it is in a tier higher than it would normally be placed based on performance alone. I was making a quirk pass joke, and referencing the AS7-D-DC, CDA-3M, etc.

[Metus regem]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

...in this game. You neutron-star-level denselord.

Rather than taking a personal attack stance, you would have seen in the section I quoted from you, not once in that section do you mention MWO. So I took it to mean in all of battletech, and took the challenge to show otherwise, in a non offensive or inappropriate way.

You on the other hand chose to be offensive and immature about the counter point I made.

[The Boz]

KuroNyra, on 21 December 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Clans Mech are HOTTER than IS Mech...

Here we go again...

Metus regem, on 21 December 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

Rather than taking a personal attack stance, you would have seen in the section I quoted from you, not once in that section do you mention MWO. So I took it to mean in all of battletech, and took the challenge to show otherwise, in a non offensive or inappropriate way.

You on the other hand chose to be offensive and immature about the counter point I made.

Oh, this thread was about the TT and lore Summoner, then? Are you physically incapable of following context? Are you proud of this inability, and use it to antagonize others online?

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Do you want all non-light Clams on the level of Doomcrow/Timbergod/DireWhale? Because that's how you get that. And then where will the IS-Clan balance be?

No, actually. Most of the others have terribad hitboxes, not enough hardpoints and poor hardpoint locations. Giving the Suckonner Endo will not make it God tier. It will make it Cataphract tier.

Is that too high a tier? A mech the same tonnage as it? Which can pack more weapons, with more tonnage?


No, your fears are unfounded. If such a mech did appear; guess what? Don't allow it to switch. Problem averted.



Have you still not used a non trial Clam mech? Because your prejudice is beginning to show, again.

[The Boz]

Not interested in spending time and money just to get people like you off my back.

[mogs01gt]

My biggest issue with the Summoner is the torso mounting ballistics. Its a PITA that the mech can barely look up or down. I found that if I was above my target or below, I could never get my torso on target without spending/wasting more trying go get the damn torso inline to fire. Doing this simply gets the mech cored.

******* pissed I didnt start off with the prime!!! ******* D! Its one of those mechs I'll probably never take the time to Elite... Sadly I love the Thor!