1236 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Not interested in spending time and money just to get people like you off my back.

So, your opinion on using Clam mechs is completely unfounded?

Nice to know.

[hybrid black]

Nick86, on 21 December 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

I don't think you can really imply that Bishop is a bad player...

New here?

no im not new been here since closed beta hes average thats it

[The Boz]

Mcgral18, on 21 December 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

So, your opinion on using Clam mechs is completely unfounded?

Nice to know.

If "completely unfounded" you mean "completely unchallenged other than by ad-hominem and argument to authority", then yes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 21 December 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The problem with locked ES/FF is simple.

It's a terrible balancing factor. All it does is create enormous inequities between Clan chassis.

As things stand, it's extremely difficult to balance IS vs. Clans simply because there is such a wide gap between good clan chassis and bad clan chassis. The lack of ES/FF is a very major part of this.

Quirks worked for IS Mechs. Not perfectly, of course, but they certainly made a whole lot of more chassis reasonably balanced.

Quirks could work for Clans, and IMHO *IF* they went that route they ought to apply them to the CT's only to differentiate the variants.

But I don't think that's a good way to go, and here's why:

In Lore, it's really the Clan Mechs that are supposed to be flexible. Currently, that's not the case: IS Mechs are the really flexible chassis. However, quirks work on IS Mechs to reduce the variety of load outs within a specific variant by making it very good at particular load outs. This tends to bring IS Mechs to a more "stock-esque" feel.

Unlocking ES/FF on all clan chassis but *not* seriously quirking them allows them flexibility without the extreme strength in a particular area.

Most likely, this change would result in Clans being overall stronger, as you'd have a lot more Mechs competing with the timberwolves and stormcrows. So, I'd expect to see further tweaks after that.

I think quirking the weaker Clan chassis in the way the is chassis where quirked is a bad idea that reduces the flavour differences between the two factions.

that's why strong Quirks, like weapon specific ones should be tied to the omnipod, not the chassis, with the chassis only getting more generic quirks tied to the CT.

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

If "completely unfounded" you mean "completely unchallenged other than by ad-hominem and argument to authority", then yes.

You didn't use the mech.

You are saying adding these 3.5 tons will make it OP? It's ridiculous what you're saying.



You are whining about things you've never used.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

that's why strong Quirks, like weapon specific ones should be tied to the omnipod, not the chassis, with the chassis only getting more generic quirks tied to the CT.

Prime arm with 15 PP FLD ERPPCs? Not shared with either the torso mount, or the D arms.

That is a pretty hefty buff, which isn't uncalled for.

[Bishop Steiner]

SuckyJack, on 21 December 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

To put it simply, it all comes down to JJ not giving the amount of mobility in MWO as it's tonnage and crit spaces pay for. This is true not just for the Summoner but every single mech in the game, even light mechs.

No air control, no omnidirectional thrust, weak thrust mechanics. Even worse is that the 'scaling' given to JJ has made a good number of low tier jumping chassis even worse as mounting 4 JJ isn't effective enough to reach a good number of places. For JJs to be as good as they have been you are mounting close to 6 on anything larger than a Blackjack.

Yeah, JJS still need work. Too "good" and poptarting returns...except it doesn't have to. Told Paul then, and stick to the thought, there is no reason for the current manner. Return JJs to where they were, but simply extend the jump shake on the reticles for a .5 second to a second after you cut thrust. It's allow JJs to be very useful, though still mitigated by heat, but make poptarting very very difficult.

Khobai, on 21 December 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Its only a terrible balancing factor if its not balanced.

Clan mechs without ES/FF should get 1 extra quirk for each they dont have. So the Summoner should get 1 bonus quirk compared to the Timberwolf. The Hellbringer should get 2 bonus quirks compared to the Timberwolf since it has neither.

Also I think +5% speed is pretty underappreciated. Thats a really nice quirk. The Summoner is almost in a good place right now. At worst its tier 3.

Unfortunately, at best, it's also still tier 3. I'd like to see it a solid tier 2, and in it's own little niche, a situational tier 1.

[The Boz]

Mcgral18, on 21 December 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

You didn't use the mech.

You are saying adding these 3.5 tons will make it OP? It's ridiculous what you're saying.

You are whining about things you've never used.

It's true, I never used the mech. I never claimed it's OP, either. What I said was that, if ALL Clan mechs could choose to use ES and FF, then ALL Clan mechs WOULD choose to use half-slot ES and FF, taking up the same space as IS ES that is absolutely mandatory for any competitive build, and I further implied that that is a very good way to get all Clan mechs up to the level of the Holy Trinity.

[Bishop Steiner]

mogs01gt, on 21 December 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

My biggest issue with the Summoner is the torso mounting ballistics. Its a PITA that the mech can barely look up or down. I found that if I was above my target or below, I could never get my torso on target without spending/wasting more trying go get the damn torso inline to fire. Doing this simply gets the mech cored.

******* pissed I didnt start off with the prime!!! ******* D! Its one of those mechs I'll probably never take the time to Elite... Sadly I love the Thor!

That is true. The Summoner and Gargoyle are mechs that survive in part due to mobility.....yet in some crucial areas, they have butt lousy mobility.

[The Boz]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

That is true. The Summoner and Gargoyle are mechs that survive in part due to mobility.....yet in some crucial areas, they have butt lousy mobility.

I still have no idea how the Gargoyle got the GARGANTUANHUGE movement profile. I choose to believe they accidentally switched the profile with the King Crab. Mobility quirks were a nice addition to the Summoner.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 21 December 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

You didn't use the mech.

You are saying adding these 3.5 tons will make it OP? It's ridiculous what you're saying.



You are whining about things you've never used.



Prime arm with 15 PP FLD ERPPCs? Not shared with either the torso mount, or the D arms.

That is a pretty hefty buff, which isn't uncalled for.

or a prime right arm with a 25-20% ER PPC projectile speed buff (like the Vindicator has) and a 25% ER PPC Heat Reduction. Or swap out the heat reduce for cooldown, etc.

Prime Left arm get's an LB-X cool down. Leave the torso launcher as is.

Buff the legs internal and armor.

I would kill for Endo, but idk. I could make the "perfect" Prime with that setup though.

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I still have no idea how the Gargoyle got the GARGANTUANHUGE movement profile. I choose to believe they accidentally switched the profile with the King Crab. Mobility quirks were a nice addition to the Summoner.

I wonder about that too man. A little mind boggling. Especially since the Gargoyle has mediocre hit boxes, mediocre hardpoints and lousy sustainable firepower. Mobility is really all it has, considering. But I hit a slope and King Crabs that move 25 kph slower than me, sprint right by. SMH

[OznerpaG]

not gonna happen, but being able to swap FF for Endo but at IS slot cost/IS weight saving ratios, or add FF/Endo on clan mechs but at IS slot cost/IS weight saving ratios would be an interesting experiment, the rational being that built in FF/Endo is more compact than something added later on

my problem with the Summoner is after you load it up it's still got empty critical slots up the wazoo since it's impossible to fill even half of them - i feel like i'm piloting a massive echo chamber lol

Edited by JagdFlanker, 21 December 2014 - 03:56 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

JagdFlanker, on 21 December 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

not gonna happen, but being able to swap FF for Endo or add FF/Endo on clan mechs but at IS slot cost/IS weight saving ratios would be an interesting experiment, the rational being that built in FF/Endo is more compact than something added later on

my problem with the Summoner is after you load it up it's still got empty critical slots up the wazoo since it's impossible to fill even half of them - i feel like i'm piloting a massive echo chamber lol

Kind of like the Catapults arms, according to Russ, lol. They're big because they are mostly empty space.

*facepalm* Love ya Russ.....but..... yeah.

JagdFlanker, on 21 December 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

not gonna happen, but being able to swap FF for Endo but at IS slot cost/IS weight saving ratios, or add FF/Endo on clan mechs but at IS slot cost/IS weight saving ratios would be an interesting experiment, the rational being that built in FF/Endo is more compact than something added later on

my problem with the Summoner is after you load it up it's still got empty critical slots up the wazoo since it's impossible to fill even half of them - i feel like i'm piloting a massive echo chamber lol

Hey I'm all for that. But then I'm the crazy bugger that think sendo should never be "swappable" in IS mechs, so I might not be the best judge.

[The Boz]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Kind of like the Catapults arms, according to Russ, lol. They're big because they are mostly empty space.

*facepalm* Love ya Russ.....but..... yeah.

This is the one place where I would actually welcome* the "It went right through!" random ineffectual overpenetration from World of Tanks.

* - No, not really.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Biggest problem for the Summoner IMO, is those low arms.

If it had even a single energy hardpoint Omni for its torso, that would make a big difference.

Reason I say that is this, yeah you've got JJ's and can get up on a handful of things, but once you're up there, you still have to completely expose yourself to shoot, and those arms pop pretty fast.

With FFibrous only, picking even a single UAC-5 is an expensive investment for the Summoner, I think putting a nice shoulder mounted PPC or LPL up high would really come in handy.

[Fishbulb333]

I really like the idea of letting it keep lower arm actuators with PPC etc, that coupled with a PPC velocity buff would be ideal for me. Maybe not for everyone, but I used to love running summoner with 2 ppc + an LRM-15, but the new reduced velocity killed that build for me.

More omnipods or some of the other things suggested would be sweet too, but all I really want is a clan PPC mech that can compete with the quirked IS PPCs and I figure either the nova or summoner would fill that niche nicely, leaning towards summoner because without adding new omnipods what else can it really do? Boat streaks and be an overweight stormcrow? Bleh... LRMs and be a lame mad dog?

Edited by Fishbulb333, 21 December 2014 - 04:16 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

The biggest thing I think the "[Summoer]" could use is additional Omnipods, particularly having at least 1 energy hardpoint in each side torso. This would help to alleviate the hardpoint famine somewhat, as well as allow it to make better use of its limited tonnage (lasers have the best damage per tonnage ratio of all guns). They'd also be mounted high at the nipples (higher than its main competitor the TBR), providing somewhat of a niche role in [poptarting].

More agility would be kewl too.

You can give the summoner all the hardpoints you want, it doesnt have enough tonnage to mount anything. It actually has a pretty heft amount of hardpoints. It can get 4E between its 2 arms, it can get B or M in its torsos...

Its the tonnage it doesnt have that kills it.

[Rakshasa]

I like the Summoner, but I had a devil of a time with the stock loadout. Too little ammo, and the armour was a wee bit thin for the Heavy role. I run it as a pure missile boat now - hitreg issues aside, it performs much better. Overall, I'd say with tinkering it can potentially reach Tier 2. it's never going to challenge the Holy Trinity, but properly fitted it's quick and pretty vicious. Energy builds tend to run a bit hot though, and ballistic builds usually have ammo and secondary weapon issues (at least in my experience).

John Wolf, on 21 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Every single IS mech has FF and Endo options, however none of them can change weapon hardpoints at will. Clans have Pods, is has armor options.. I would think that is fair.

You can't really quirk a chassis that isn't a 'chassis' but a jigsaw puzzle.

Both true, but with the hardwired limitations inherent to Clan chassis there's usually a remarkably small number of omnipods used in any given match supporting an equally small number of weapon builds. The omnipod system may be intended to foster diversity and creativity but with the weight limitations a lot of Clan mechs suffer from, us Clan players regularly end up using a small number of general builds just to squeeze an acceptable level of performance from our mechs - resulting in less creativity and diversity out of sheer neccessity. Meta-within-meta.

Moving on from that, in an ideal world Quirks would be used to support and enhance a 'mechs lore-based performance and flavour - but doing that for many Clan chassis would only serve to waste Quirks on loadouts that hinder them. I'd love to see the Gargoyle used as anything but a laser boat, but with its tiny, unalterable weight allowance anything else is asking for trouble - despite the Prime being by canon a (woefully under-armed) ballistics & missile mech. Quirk it for those and all you'll end up with are Quirks that'll likely never be used.

EDIT: Bad post means much cleanup. It's late and I have no coffee

Edited by Rakshasa, 21 December 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[mogs01gt]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

That is true. The Summoner and Gargoyle are mechs that survive in part due to mobility.....yet in some crucial areas, they have butt lousy mobility.

If the D torsos got perks to allow increased up and down movement, then it would be better. But sadly its torso mounts put you at risk.

The prime is the best variant. Its almost pointless to spend 28m Cbills to get the others. Not very Cbill efficient.

[Wintersdark]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

It's true, I never used the mech. I never claimed it's OP, either. What I said was that, if ALL Clan mechs could choose to use ES and FF, then ALL Clan mechs WOULD choose to use half-slot ES and FF, taking up the same space as IS ES that is absolutely mandatory for any competitive build, and I further implied that that is a very good way to get all Clan mechs up to the level of the Holy Trinity.

Of course they would all use at least one, often both.

Just like almost all Is Mechs mount ES.

Yes, this would bring the bad clan Mechs which are currently essentially unusable to the level of the Timberwolf and Stormcrow, or at least into the same ballpark. That's the whole point.

You can't effectively balance "IS vs Clan" when you're really balancing IS vs. timberwolf, and destroying most of the other clan Mechs in the process.

Once you get the bulk of the clan Mechs close together, then you can look into faction wide changes (more XL penalties, etc) without fear of making poor Mechs useless in your hunt to bring 2 down.

[Utilyan]

This is my favorite mech in game right now. (mine looks so pretty)

I'd like the mech to live up to its namesake of Summoner.

As far as the PRIME variant. Heavily inspired by Jade Falcon, this thing summons the falcons, it has the "falcon-sight".

Quirks that focus on TARGETING Range and Advanced computer systems. And just like having quirks for specific item sets in other games.....have awesomely good targeting range quirks for keeping all your pods prime.

The Clanner EWACS. (I want the IS equivalent to be the Assassin)

I want the Summoner to be the "LEADER" mech. If you put a bap or computer on it it should work twice as good. Or even have quirks that allow it to relay targeting info to team in a shared way....quicker.

So if there's a lone summoner on top of a building or mountain and you see it I want to convey the feeling we are seen and oh crap here they come.

"We remember with the clarity of falcon-sight the words of Kerensky." --Clan Jade Falcon