1236 replies to this topic

[The Boz]

Wintersdark, on 21 December 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

Of course they would all use at least one, often both.

Just like almost all Is Mechs mount ES.

Yes, this would bring the bad clan Mechs which are currently essentially unusable to the level of the Timberwolf and Stormcrow, or at least into the same ballpark. That's the whole point.

You can't effectively balance "IS vs Clan" when you're really balancing IS vs. timberwolf, and destroying most of the other clan Mechs in the process.

Once you get the bulk of the clan Mechs close together, then you can look into faction wide changes (more XL penalties, etc) without fear of making poor Mechs useless in your hunt to bring 2 down.

1. "Use at least one, often both." No sane IS mech build in MWO currently uses standard structure; Endo-Steel is a straight upgrade. Since ES is a straight upgrade at 14 slots, it's logical to assume that ES+FF is a straight upgrade at 7+7 slots, too.
2. I'm not comparing the IS to the TBR. And neither is anyone else in this thread.
3. Your stance is "buff the rest of the clans to SCR/TBR/DWF levels, then nerf Clans as a whole accordingly". My stance is "Bring the SCR/TBR/DWF down in line with the rest of the clans, and adjust the whole accordingly". I think we should just agree to disagree on this one.

[Wintersdark]

For example, consider: unlock es/FF. Weak clan Mechs get better.

Add clan XL side destruction penalty: max speed limited to 70%. All clan Mechs get weaker together.

[Rakshasa]

Wintersdark, on 21 December 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

For example, consider: unlock es/FF. Weak clan Mechs get better.

Add clan XL side destruction penalty: max speed limited to 70%. All clan Mechs get weaker together.

I like that. There should be some penalty for a Clan 'mech losing a side torso - nearly 1/3rd of its engine has been vaporized

[The Boz]

Wintersdark, on 21 December 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

For example, consider: unlock es/FF. Weak clan Mechs get better.

Add clan XL side destruction penalty: max speed limited to 70%. All clan Mechs get weaker together.

This could work only if brought up in the same patch. I'm just not opened to the idea of PGI letting one faction go berserk for a few months "just to get a definitive feel" before changing this way or that.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 21 December 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

No, actually. Most of the others have terribad hitboxes, not enough hardpoints and poor hardpoint locations. Giving the Suckonner Endo will not make it God tier. It will make it Cataphract tier.

Is that too high a tier? A mech the same tonnage as it? Which can pack more weapons, with more tonnage?


No, your fears are unfounded. If such a mech did appear; guess what? Don't allow it to switch. Problem averted.



Have you still not used a non trial Clam mech? Because your prejudice is beginning to show, again.

The Summoner IMO is Tier 3... on par with the pre-quirked Thunderbolts (this is generous, but I know people hated Thunderbolts previously with good reason and I actually like Tbolts and played them for what they are... medicore).

Certainly giving it Endo would probably give it Cataphract status for sure, although that makes existing Cataphracts not so hot relatively speaking (IS XL engines and big side torsos are kinda problematic at times, but it is what it is).

mogs01gt, on 21 December 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

My biggest issue with the Summoner is the torso mounting ballistics. Its a PITA that the mech can barely look up or down. I found that if I was above my target or below, I could never get my torso on target without spending/wasting more trying go get the damn torso inline to fire. Doing this simply gets the mech cored.

******* pissed I didnt start off with the prime!!! ******* D! Its one of those mechs I'll probably never take the time to Elite... Sadly I love the Thor!

I've had this experience with the Thunderbolt-9SE (the JJ variant). That has oddly more to do with the torso cockpit. The slightly "off" (offset) positioning doesn't help with people getting used to the cockpit, but also makes it difficult to make the torso weaponry harder to use. Cataphracts would be considered the "gold standard" because of this.

As compensation for that variant AND the Summoners is to actually INCREASE the torso pitch on the mech. Despite having the high torso mounts, the "base"/standard values in conjunction with the cockpit really don't work out the way you'd think.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

I wonder about that too man. A little mind boggling. Especially since the Gargoyle has mediocre hit boxes, mediocre hardpoints and lousy sustainable firepower. Mobility is really all it has, considering. But I hit a slope and King Crabs that move 25 kph slower than me, sprint right by. SMH

Gargoyles have better uptime with Clan Pulse Lasers Wub. You may be surprised at the results.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 December 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 21 December 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

1. "Use at least one, often both." No sane IS mech build in MWO currently uses standard structure; Endo-Steel is a straight upgrade. Since ES is a straight upgrade at 14 slots, it's logical to assume that ES+FF is a straight upgrade at 7+7 slots, too.
2. I'm not comparing the IS to the TBR. And neither is anyone else in this thread.
3. Your stance is "buff the rest of the clans to SCR/TBR/DWF levels, then nerf Clans as a whole accordingly". My stance is "Bring the SCR/TBR/DWF down in line with the rest of the clans, and adjust the whole accordingly". I think we should just agree to disagree on this one.

not true about endo. MAny energy heavy Assaults actually are better without as they need critical space for DHS more than Tonnage. Battlemasters, Awesomes, some Stalkers, Atlases, etc already have plenty of tonnage.

Deathlike, on 21 December 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

The Summoner IMO is Tier 3... on par with the pre-quirked Thunderbolts (this is generous, but I know people hated Thunderbolts previously with good reason and I actually like Tbolts and played them for what they are... medicore).

Certainly giving it Endo would probably give it Cataphract status for sure, although that makes existing Cataphracts not so hot relatively speaking (IS XL engines and big side torsos are kinda problematic at times, but it is what it is).





I've had this experience with the Thunderbolt-9SE (the JJ variant). That has oddly more to do with the torso cockpit. The slightly "off" (offset) positioning doesn't help with people getting used to the cockpit, but also makes it difficult to make the torso weaponry harder to use. Cataphracts would be considered the "gold standard" because of this.

As compensation for that variant AND the Summoners is to actually INCREASE the torso pitch on the mech. Despite having the high torso mounts, the "base"/standard values in conjunction with the cockpit really don't work out the way you'd think.




Gargoyles have better uptime with Clan Pulse Lasers Wub. You may be surprised at the results.

Laser Vomit, even Wub Vomit, is boring. Excuse me for wanting to have some variety.

[Khobai]

Like I said rather than giving the summoner endo I would just give clan mechs extra quirks for not having FF or Endo.

So youd end up with this:
Tier 1 Timberwolf = 2 quirks (3 base -1 for JJ)
Tier 2 Hellbringer = 5 quirks (4 base -1 for ECM +2 for no ES/FF)
Tier 3 Summoner = 5 quirks (5 base -1 for JJ +1 for no ES)

[John80sk]

The PPC/Gauss Summoner is fairly decent. I wouldn't discount Hybrid's opinion because he's trolly, he is one of the top players on one of the top teams.

Allowing clan mechs to use endo-steel is one of the most sensible solutions from a balance perspective. Most of the mechs that use endo-steel are also in the ideal weight for their class as well. Lets look at the current Clan lineup without endo.

Direwolf: Wouldn't benefit from endo, the thing runs out of crit space before it runs out of tonnage most of the time, and the worst thing that could happen is it mounting additional ammo on ballistic builds (of which it can already carry plenty).
Warhawk: Probably wouldn't benefit
Gargoyle: Would benefit, is a tier 4-5 assault.
Summoner: Would benefit, is a tier 3 heavy
Hellbringer: Might benefit, is a tier 1-2 heavy
Mad Dog: Does not have endo, would benefit, is a tier 3 heavy
Nova: Does not have endo/ferro, would benefit from endo, is a tier 3 medium (at best).

The other advantage is that it normalizes the quality of mechs a bit. Then it's easier to control Clan vs IS balance with big nerfs/buffs to weapons instead of individually tweaking every under/over performing Clan mech. I would also suggest that if a mech already had endo/ferro it would not be possible to remove, as the removal of ferro might actually make the Timby stronger.

Quirks are another solution, and probably the best for "customer satisfaction" in that it probably won't offend the lore crowd, and would satisfy the balance crowd. On the other hand this would require significantly more resources in that it isn't a blanket solution, but a bunch of individual solutions that will have to be applied to all current mechs, and all future mechs.

[Kaspirikay]

summoner is bummerner

[FupDup]

What would Nicolai Malthus do?




I should totally paint my Thor bright red and medium gray and puke lasers with it...

[Bishop Steiner]

John80sk, on 21 December 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

The PPC/Gauss Summoner is fairly decent. I wouldn't discount Hybrid's opinion because he's trolly, he is one of the top players on one of the top teams.

Allowing clan mechs to use endo-steel is one of the most sensible solutions from a balance perspective. Most of the mechs that use endo-steel are also in the ideal weight for their class as well. Lets look at the current Clan lineup without endo.

Direwolf: Wouldn't benefit from endo, the thing runs out of crit space before it runs out of tonnage most of the time, and the worst thing that could happen is it mounting additional ammo on ballistic builds (of which it can already carry plenty).
Warhawk: Probably wouldn't benefit
Gargoyle: Would benefit, is a tier 4-5 assault.
Summoner: Would benefit, is a tier 3 heavy
Hellbringer: Might benefit, is a tier 1-2 heavy
Mad Dog: Does not have endo, would benefit, is a tier 3 heavy
Nova: Does not have endo/ferro, would benefit from endo, is a tier 3 medium (at best).

The other advantage is that it normalizes the quality of mechs a bit. Then it's easier to control Clan vs IS balance with big nerfs/buffs to weapons instead of individually tweaking every under/over performing Clan mech. I would also suggest that if a mech already had endo/ferro it would not be possible to remove, as the removal of ferro might actually make the Timby stronger.

Quirks are another solution, and probably the best for "customer satisfaction" in that it probably won't offend the lore crowd, and would satisfy the balance crowd. On the other hand this would require significantly more resources in that it isn't a blanket solution, but a bunch of individual solutions that will have to be applied to all current mechs, and all future mechs.

I don't discount what he says because he's trolly. I just ignore him for that. I discount what he said because what the Summoner can do in the hands of a top tier player is an outlier to it's actual performance. And that build when compared to other "Meta" Heavies, doesn't even rank. Doing 1000 damage in a Summoner is nice, but when the same players in same scenario can do 1400 with a TW, it says the mech is still substandard, yes?

As for his skill, I honestly could care less. Get most "top tier" players out in PUGlandia, and they may still be good, but in general still die like the rest of us. I've only met a handful of players that make my sphincter pucker a little when I see them in a solo drop. He ain't one of them.

[Lightfoot]

Just make the jjets on all the Clan mechs removable. It's very unbalanced since only a few have jump-jets.

Please remember also that MWO gives the Inner Sphere a completely open Mechlab and Clan Mechlab only allows armor amounts and heatsink and equipment, except jump-jets, to be changed. Omnipod changes do not require Mechlab. Mechlab also only exists in MechWarrior, not Battle Tech. I guess I could say if Clan Mechlab allows equipment changes, why not jump-jets which are equipment? Seems more like fear of what players might do than logically applied rules.

[FupDup]

I just looked into this mech's future Omnipods. The Alternate Z has 8 ballistic hardpoints on its left arm...imagine the kind of horrible things you could do to people with that. It came stock with 8 AP Gauss Rifles, which would converge together in MWO to do 24 damage but for only 4 tons. Mmmm, cheesy goodness...

The main drawback would be PGI's super lazy hardpoint scaling that would make each individual little ballistic mount big enough to carry a UAC/20...and you'd have 8 boxes that size on a single arm. Your arm alone would be the size of a typical medium mech lol.

Edited by FupDup, 21 December 2014 - 08:22 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

I just looked into this mech's future Omnipods. The Alternate Z has 8 ballistic hardpoints on its left arm...imagine the kind of horrible things you could do to people with that. It came stock with 8 AP Gauss Rifles, which would converge together in MWO to do 24 damage but for only 4 tons. Mmmm, cheesy goodness...

The main drawback would be PGI's super lazy hardpoint scaling that would make each individual little ballistic mount big enough to carry a UAC/20...and you'd have 8 boxes that size on a single arm. Your arm alone would be the size of a typical medium mech lol.

One thing I see also, is that if you just added Endo to the Summoner, you could max the armor everywhere but the legs (and those would get 54 each) and be able to have 2 tons ammo for the LRM15 and 3 tons for the LB-10X, which would pretty much give it the ammo to have it's TT effectiveness.

Arms and Legs still need some IS/Armor buffs, and then add a Cooldown to the LA Autocannon, and Quirk the RA PPC.

The more I look at it, then the Nova, Hellbringer, etc, the more I wonder if Endo would really be a big deal. Hellbringer needs extra cooling, period, MAd Dog is still 60 tons, the Nova still has Nova size and hitboxes, but might be able to run a tad cooler. Gargoyle would get some needed love, and neither the Dire Wolf nor Warhawk would ever use it because they need space more than tons.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

One thing I see also, is that if you just added Endo to the Summoner, you could max the armor everywhere but the legs (and those would get 54 each) and be able to have 2 tons ammo for the LRM15 and 3 tons for the LB-10X, which would pretty much give it the ammo to have it's TT effectiveness.

Arms and Legs still need some IS/Armor buffs, and then add a Cooldown to the LA Autocannon, and Quirk the RA PPC.

The more I look at it, then the Nova, Hellbringer, etc, the more I wonder if Endo would really be a big deal. Hellbringer needs extra cooling, period, MAd Dog is still 60 tons, the Nova still has Nova size and hitboxes, but might be able to run a tad cooler. Gargoyle would get some needed love, and neither the Dire Wolf nor Warhawk would ever use it because they need space more than tons.

For the Hellbie, cooling is indeed its biggest issue but I find that it's still an amazing robot in spite of it. With Endo and FF it might very well rival the Timber because it already has amazing hardpoints (arguably better hardpoints than the TBR itself, because high mounted torso guns and asymmetry).

For the others, it would help but I don't like that it would make Omnimechs be built more similar to Battlemechs than they are currently. Locked internal stuff adds a degree of "flavor" between them and makes customizing them feel at least somewhat different.


Heck, for the lights, they already have both so they would stay sub-par anyways, because their weakness is based on their engines... Does that mean we should allow Clan engine swapping too? Because that's effectively the same logic as is being used to suggest the unlocking of Endo and FF, just applied to a different piece of hardware.

But then if we let them change their engines, that would unleash an even greater crapstorm with the other Clan mechs.

The Timber would be able to slow down to XL325-350 to carry dual Gauss and some ERML while still being fairly maneuverable. The Dire Whale would be able to dramatically up its engine to reduce its natural agility/speed weakness. My precious Wubhawk could upgrade its engine to fit more DHS inside, and then add Endo to cancel out the increased tonnage of the bigger engine. Stormcrow could down its engine to 300 and slot DHS into its engine to save slots. Etc...

----

I think in the end, quirks are the way to avoid opening cans of worms when it comes to equalizing the Clan lineup. Khobai's idea of giving bonus quirks for mechs lacking Endo/FF is a good idea too. Some people say that quirks make them more similar to the IS, and to a degree that's true...opening up their customization also makes them similar to the IS, so it can't really be escaped either way.

The way to somewhat differentiate their quirks would be to have all them assigned on a per-omnipod basis, and not have any "general" weapon quirks (i.e. don't reduce heat on all energy weapons, just a specific type, etc.). If people wanted to get quirks for multiple weapon types they would have to mix-and-match their pods to find that "just right" combination. Or they could just hyperspecialize if they felt like it, too.

Edited by FupDup, 21 December 2014 - 08:43 PM.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I don't think you want to see what kind of things I could do with a Hellbringer that has Endo Steel. I would do horrible, unspeakable things...

Endo would be nice on some HBR builds, but not all of them.

One of the things that makes it work so well, is that it has a ridiculous amount of space to stuff DHS into and can also go left side bias for most of them.

LordKnightFandragon, on 21 December 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

You can give the summoner all the hardpoints you want, it doesnt have enough tonnage to mount anything.

Summoner 70T
Max Armor
5x JJs
14 DHS
Available Tonnage = 20.69

Timber Wolf 75T
Max Armor
2x JJs from 1 S pod
15 DHS
Available Tonnage = 25.46

These two builds are separate by roughly 5+1 (DHS) tons, that's a very, very small amount - and it's also right around their tonnage difference.


Most clan mechs don't have much tonnage to mount *anything* that isn't lasers, missiles, lasers and missiles or mediums + gauss.



What separates these two mechs is:

1) JJs don't give as much as they should for the tonnage investment.
2) Summoner can't boat energy. It can boat missiles, but it has to completely give up energy to do so.
3) Most weapon mounts are on low slung arms.

Tonnage plays a part, but it's not nearly the whole of the issue.

I "make due" on the Stormcrow with roughly the same tonnage as the Summoner (less actually, if we count DHS).

The difference is physical location of hardpoints, ability to boat energy or missiles or mix the two.







If we gave the Summoner endo, to counter act a few of it's JJs it would have roughly the same available tonnage as the Timber Wolf, roughly the same Armor, more JJs but would still be the weaker mech because of how it is physically designed and how it's omni-pods are limited.


Give it two high torso mounted energy hardpoints, and it would likely shoot up one full tier.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 December 2014 - 09:04 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 21 December 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Endo would be nice on some HBR builds, but not all of them.

One of the things that makes it work so well, is that it has a ridiculous amount of space to stuff DHS into and can also go left side bias for most of them.

Toying around in Smurfys, so far the only loadout that I get close to running out of slots on is 7 ERML + a fuckton of DHS (with full armor it has 0.31 tons remaining and 7 free slots).

Using heavier weapons like the LPL would eat up tonnage much faster than slots however. If we add Endo we gain 3 tons, and adding Ferro would give an extra 2 tons. Those extra dubs would make quite a difference, and I feel that the Loki is already as good as it needs to be.

The only buffs I think the Hellbie could use are making its A and B left torsos able to somewhat compete against the Prime's 3 energy and ECM. Outside of that the mech is great.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

Toying around in Smurfys, so far the only loadout that I get close to running out of slots on is 7 ERML + a fuckton of DHS (with full armor it has 0.31 tons remaining and 7 free slots).

That's a primary build yes (I only use 6 on mine).

It's a build that works well specifically because you don't run out of slots and can crank it up to 27 or 28 DHS. (EDIT: 29 DHS - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5a51278685efa40)

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 December 2014 - 09:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 21 December 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

Toying around in Smurfys, so far the only loadout that I get close to running out of slots on is 7 ERML + a fuckton of DHS (with full armor it has 0.31 tons remaining and 7 free slots).

Using heavier weapons like the LPL would eat up tonnage much faster than slots however. If we add Endo we gain 3 tons, and adding Ferro would give an extra 2 tons. Those extra dubs would make quite a difference, and I feel that the Loki is already as good as it needs to be.

The only buffs I think the Hellbie could use are making its A and B left torsos able to somewhat compete against the Prime's 3 energy and ECM. Outside of that the mech is great.

who said anything about unlocking ferro? One thing at a time.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

who said anything about unlocking ferro? One thing at a time.

An Endo enabled Hellbie would still be a damn fine robot (well, even more fine than it presently is).

As for FF, it's kind of implied that if you get to toy around with one internal "core" item that you'd get to toy around with more. FF in particular, being armor mounted on the exterior, would theoretically be easier to replace than a mech's entire skeleton...