236 replies to this topic

[Ovion]

wanderer, on 24 December 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Light_Rifle

Also see Medium and Heavy Rifles.

They're "retrotech"- a weapon system common before the Battlemech, much like rocket launchers were. RL's were much more widely adopted, but rifles still show up in Periphery designs like the Arbiter and more frequently as a cheap low-tech vehicle weapon where modern armor is rarer.

In MWO terms, they'd suffer a lesser version of how MGs do reduced damage vs. armor and inflict full damage to internals.

That's... bizzare.

I looked there previously and the entire stat line was missing. (Even though everything else had them).

Hey-ho.

I'd be quite happy with that tbh.

Effectively a light AC3 with AC20ish ranges.
Probably arond the 300/600m or 350/700m mark.

I would definately run 1-2 on a Locust, and 1-4 on other lights/mediums, even at 18 or so shots a ton.

[Xetelian]

Mcgral18, on 24 December 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

As is stands, I feel like I need 8 on the Nova to make a noticeable impact.

Because people can bring so many is why they do diddly.

[wanderer]

Quote

I would definately run 1-2 on a Locust, and 1-4 on other lights/mediums, even at 18 or so shots a ton.

Considering doubled MWO armor, I'd halve the damage penalty (meaning a light rifle would deal 1.5 damage per hit to armor, 3 damage to internals) and apply the usual MWO increase to shots per ton. That'd give it 27 shots per ton, and likely make pilots of designs like the Huginn perk up considerably.

[TheSilken]

I want them to sound like .50 cal guns not pea shooters. Let me at least sound ferocious with them

[Mcgral18]

Xetelian, on 24 December 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Because people can bring so many is why they do diddly.

The maximum you can take is 6; on the Dire Whale, Arrow, Crab and Jaeger.

Nova can have a maximum of 5, but that's not worth it with the 5% heat quirk of the arm, being worth more. They took a 20% nerf for no reason.

[VixNix]

Bhael Fire, on 24 December 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

I could get behind that, but only if they did at least 2 DPS on exposed internals.

once the armor is gone they should chew up internals/components, but not the frame...

[CocoaJin]

A viable anti-mech, hit scan weapon that can be fire continuously without drawbacks(no heat, no jamming, no failures) until it's ammo runs dry is a bad thing.

[Vassago Rain]

Ovion, on 24 December 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

That's... bizzare.

I looked there previously and the entire stat line was missing. (Even though everything else had them).

Hey-ho.

I'd be quite happy with that tbh.

Effectively a light AC3 with AC20ish ranges.
Probably arond the 300/600m or 350/700m mark.

I would definately run 1-2 on a Locust, and 1-4 on other lights/mediums, even at 18 or so shots a ton.

Light rifles can't actually damage mechs, and the tonnage to damage profile makes the AC5 and AC2 far superior weapons, anyway.

What you should be asking for are light ACs. Those are AC5s and AC2s, that cut range to use less tonnage and crits.

[FupDup]

CocoaJin, on 25 December 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

A viable anti-mech, hit scan weapon that can be fire continuously without drawbacks(no heat, no jamming, no failures) until it's ammo runs dry is a bad thing.

The drawbacks are continuous exposure time (no torso twisting, have to facetank while using MGs), short range, and requiring ballistic hardpoints (that can often be spent on other options).

The reason people use MGs today isn't because they're actually good (they're not), it's because that there are literally no other choices for ballistics of that tonnage. If we had future tech like Magshot Gauss Rifles and AP Gauss Rifles, MGs would go the way of the dodo.

Edited by FupDup, 25 December 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[YueFei]

VixNix, on 24 December 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

I think MG's should do nothing until armor is gone...

GAU-8 thinks otherwise. Inner Sphere MGs weigh almost twice as much as the GAU-8 does.

[The Wakelord]

Xetelian, on 24 December 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Because people can bring so many is why they do diddly.

As someone who quite likes ballistics, the majority of mechs who bring MGs can bring 2 or 4. There are a small number who can take more than this, namely:
- The arrow hero mech (6)
- Jaegermech (6)
- Kingcrab (6)
- Direwolf (6)

2~4 is a small number to boat, so is 6. 2 of these 4 mechs are assaults, so wont be running MGs in their 6 ballistic slots either (except for lolz)

Lets compare that to mechs that can "bring so many" energy weapons (ie: greater than 4):
Locust: (5,6)
Firestarter: (6,7,8)
Jenner (6)
Cicada (5,6)
Blackjack (6,8)
Vindicator (5)
Hunchback (5,6,9)
Trebuchet (5)
Griffin (6)
Wolverine (5)
Nova (12)
Stormcrow (7)
This is light & medium only.

Gosh, those ballistic mechs are so OP with their bringing so many MG. I can see why they need to be so weak!

[FupDup]

The Wakelord, on 25 December 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

As someone who quite likes ballistics, the majority of mechs who bring MGs can bring 2 or 4. There are a small number who can take more than this, namely:
- The arrow hero mech (6)
- Jaegermech (6)
- Kingcrab (6)
- Direwolf (6)

2~4 is a small number to boat, so is 6. 2 of these 4 mechs are assaults, so wont be running MGs in their 6 ballistic slots either (except for lolz)

Lets compare that to mechs that can "bring so many" energy weapons (ie: greater than 4):
Locust: (5,6)
Firestarter: (6,7,8)
Jenner (6)
Cicada (5,6)
Blackjack (6,8)
Vindicator (5)
Hunchback (5,6,9)
Trebuchet (5)
Griffin (6)
Wolverine (5)
Nova (12)
Stormcrow (7)
This is light & medium only.

Gosh, those ballistic mechs are so OP with their bringing so many MG. I can see why they need to be so weak!

A 6 MG Spider would have a devastating effect on the back of an Atlas!

Edited by FupDup, 25 December 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[Ovion]

Vassago Rain, on 25 December 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Light rifles can't actually damage mechs, and the tonnage to damage profile makes the AC5 and AC2 far superior weapons, anyway.

What you should be asking for are light ACs. Those are AC5s and AC2s, that cut range to use less tonnage and crits.

Thing is, they aren't AS light, and they aren't available for another 18 years.

A Light Rifle, even if it had a penalty against armour, would be available now and good fun imo.

Doesn't always have to be ultra-competitive.

[CocoaJin]

YueFei, on 25 December 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

GAU-8 thinks otherwise. Inner Sphere MGs weigh almost twice as much as the GAU-8 does.

The GAU-8 was a viable anti-armor ballistic for armor tech 30-40yrs ago. Modern armor using similar fabrication techniques as BattleTech(minus the exotic materials) readily defeats GAU-8s...hence the heavy payload of bombs anti-tank missiles on the A-10.

I can likely re-locate the test data for the GAU-8's performance against Soviet T-72s...it never penetrated the armor, instead it relied on tracking the tank or slipping rounds into engine grates or open hatches to immobilize the tank...essentially, random crits based on BT standards.

[YueFei]

CocoaJin, on 25 December 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

The GAU-8 was a viable anti-armor ballistic for armor tech 30-40yrs ago. Modern armor using similar fabrication techniques as BattleTech(minus the exotic materials) readily defeats GAU-8s...hence the heavy payload of bombs anti-tank missiles on the A-10.

I can likely re-locate the test data for the GAU-8's performance against Soviet T-72s...it never penetrated the armor, instead it relied on tracking the tank or slipping rounds into engine grates or open hatches to immobilize the tank...essentially, random crits based on BT standards.

Well if we're talking about modern armor, even modern tank guns have a difficult time penetrating the armor. What with friendly-fire incidents where M1A1's hitting other M1A1's occasionally couldn't pierce the armor.

In the time period it was created, the GAU-8 was indeed capable of penetrating the armor:
http://www.dtic.mil/.../u2/a522397.pdf

Anyways, as it's already been pointed out, Battletech armor operates differently from modern armor, so it makes sense that Battletech "MG's" can damage it.

[The Boz]

FupDup, on 25 December 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

A 6 MG Spider would have a devastating effect on the back of an Atlas!

Yes, indeed! Devastating! Almost HALF that of a Firestarter.

[Birddog FAC]

Davegt27, on 24 December 2014 - 02:49 AM, said:

what is really needed is a weapon in between the MG and the AC2/Cac2 and UAC2

one or two ton weight double the pwr of the MG

That would be The Heavy MG brother and i think they should impliment it

[Jonny Taco]

Techorse, on 24 December 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Here's my proposal based on this thread:

- Return the Machine Gun to 1 DPS
- Buff the Flamer to 1 DPS, effectively make it an energy machine gun
- Reduce AC/2 heat to .6 per round, and return the firing rate to .52
- Reduce the ghost heat threshold from AC/2's by 1 cannon
- Increase damage done by LB-X autocannons to internal structure to 1.25 per pellet. (Not as relevant to the thread, but I hear the IS LB-X 10 is rather pitiful outside of the Centurion that can spam the weapon)

Pretty damn reasonable suggestion here.

[CocoaJin]

YueFei, on 25 December 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Well if we're talking about modern armor, even modern tank guns have a difficult time penetrating the armor. What with friendly-fire incidents where M1A1's hitting other M1A1's occasionally couldn't pierce the armor.

In the time period it was created, the GAU-8 was indeed capable of penetrating the armor:
http://www.dtic.mil/.../u2/a522397.pdf

Anyways, as it's already been pointed out, Battletech armor operates differently from modern armor, so it makes sense that Battletech "MG's" can damage it.

I'm fine with MGs damaging armor in MWO, but I don't believe it should be as effective as an AC2...at least not until the armor is removed. Against armor, I'm happy with MG performance. I treat MGs as improvised anti-mech weapons and implement them as a supplemental weapon to enhance my attack against the enemy...crit seeking and DPS between primary weapon salvos.

[YueFei]

CocoaJin, on 25 December 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

I'm fine with MGs damaging armor in MWO, but I don't believe it should be as effective as an AC2...at least not until the armor is removed. Against armor, I'm happy with MG performance. I treat MGs as improvised anti-mech weapons and implement them as a supplemental weapon to enhance my attack against the enemy...crit seeking and DPS between primary weapon salvos.

Crit-seeking is a problematic niche to try to carve out in this game, due to the crit system of MWO.

A PPC that does 9 damage to armor and penetrates to deal 1 damage to internal structure still has the same percentage chance of scoring a crit and dealing the full 10 damage to a piece of equipment. That is enough to outright destroy most equipment, on top of adding 1.5/3.0/4.5 damage to the internals.

You can replace PPC with single-shot AC or Gauss and it's the same kind of idea. Weapons with a single large front-loaded damaging impact can just outright delete equipment from your mech.

The crit-seeking weapons they've put into MWO are given higher probability of scoring a crit, but they deal damage in smaller packets or over longer periods of time. The crit damage from MG's may even be split among different equipment in a component, failing to destroy anything and merely damaging 2 or 3 different pieces of equipment.

And with limited exposure time (due to movement, twisting, getting into cover, maintaining longer range, or other enemies closing in and forcing you to break off or do your own defensive twisting), it's harder to take full advantage of that higher crit chance to really clean a component of all its equipment.

They'd have to make MG's pretty godly at critting stuff to make them better than simply removing the component with straight-up damage. Or buff internal structure health. Or a combo of the two.

Currently an Atlas has 53 health in a side torso once the armor is gone. If an Atlas just stares at someone, even a 50-ton HBK can push out 55+ damage in 2 seconds and outright remove the side torso. Even before quirks that giga-buffed the rate of fire, a HBK could do it in about 4 seconds. And MG's are DoT weapons anyways.