57 replies to this topic

[KuroNyra]

Sethliopod, on 24 December 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

I like where you're going Rad, but I think the problem lies with the expected player choices and skills.

Take two identically new, bad, or average players (you know, the majority of the MWO population, myself included) and give them each the best chassis of their faction. The Clan player will win far more often. Why? Because he is less able to screw up his build, having had many options to make the wrong choice taken away from him. He is able to carry more (lighter, smaller) fire power and heat sinks. He will be able to engage better at longer range, often with no concern for ammo.With LRMs, he can ignore minimum ranges and still inflict some damage. And yes, he will probably overheat more, but his sweet XL engine won't be punishing him with a loss when he loses a side torso.

New and average players: Clan mechs are better. Better players: I'm not sure.

No, he will just lose about half his firepower and also lots of heatsink.
To lost a Side Torso in a Clan mech generally mean you have lost half your firepower.

Let's not talk about the fact that it leave you completly vulnerable to the attack of the opponent.
You also forget to take the quircks in account who drasticly change the effectiveness of a mech.


More firepower doesn't mean better mech. In fact, it can be quite the opposite. More firepower mean less heatsink, less heatsink mean less shoot before overheating. More overheating mean more vulnerable.

You also need to take in account the longer duration and the fact that it is easier to spread the damage of Clans mech.

Clans mech on the paper are extremely good. But there is an entire world between the paper and the battlefield.

Edited by KuroNyra, 24 December 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[Fate 6]

EvilCow, on 24 December 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

Clan mechs outperforms IS mechs and it should be that way. Other balance options should be implemented in CW instead of trying to achieve tech balance.

^
The game seems pretty balanced with Clans on Attack and IS on Defense because of the turrets and the fact that IS just gets the defensive tactical advantage. However, when it's IS attacking IS the defensive advantage is just too strong because the mechs are all evenly balanced.

I don't generally feel like I'm gimped in my IS mechs in a Skirmish game, but I definitely think my Clan mechs feel stronger.

[Kain Demos]

El Bandito, on 24 December 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

I have T-Wolfes and Crows and I think they are too good for their weight. They have the durability of a class above them, along with appropriate firepower, while retaining incredible mobility. The IS mechs that I piloted for a long time with similar tonnage must sacrifice durability or firepower for that speed or sacrifice speed for firepower.

Direwhale has noticeable trade offs for its power, but Timbie and Crow? Nothing worth mentioning.

Oh no, you found two 'mechs that you can't find a downside to, remove them from the game immediately PGI.

[MechaBattler]

KuroNyra, on 24 December 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

It should be expected from the Timber Wolf to have them resilient, they are supposed to be resistant.
But have you spoke about there tremendous heat they create for there loadout?
Theses things are jack-of-all trade, but are far from being invincible. You can be glad they are don't run cooler than IS mech like they are supposed to do in the Lore.

Same goes for all the Others Clans mech.

The Timber Wolf was supposed to be fast, powerful and resilient. (In all others MW games, theses things were able to meet face to face an Atlas.)
The problem is to balance it while retaining what make a Timber Wolf... A Timber Wolf.

Basicly, how could we reduce his "OPness" without killing what make a Mad Cat. That mech no matter what happen should be feared on the battlefield. Like an Atlas is or a Dire Wolf is.

The Stormcrow is a sort-of Mad Cat for the Mediums.
Changing the Heat and make him even more hotter would basicly kill that mech. That thing is like the summoner swimming in hot lava.
Remove his firepower, same thing. It would be to take away the LRMS from a Catapult C1 or the Huch of a Hunchback G.
Speed? Clans mech were suppose to be fast f*ckers and should keep that.

Probably reduce the resistance, that could be a start. But need to be careful on that ground. If they reduce it too much, there won't be a point for that mech.

It need to keep what is make it good.
I don't want to see one of the most Iconic mech reduce to pile of garbage thanks to the cry of kids not able to deal with it, like it has been the case in others games for others iconic stuff.

Except the Timberwolf is not a jack of all trades. It's a Queen, at least. It can fill multiple roles better than other mechs on the Clan side.

Why should the Thunderbolt be nerfed, but the TimCrow remain the most represented mechs on the Clan side?

Edited by MechaBattler, 24 December 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[KuroNyra]

MechaBattler, on 24 December 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

Except the Timberwolf is not a jack of all trades. It's a Queen, at least. It can fill multiple roles better than other mechs on the Clan side.

Why should the Thunderbolt be nerfed, but the TimCrow remain the most represented mechs on the Clan side?

Where did I say the Thunderbolt should be nerfed?

[Fate 6]

Kain Thul, on 24 December 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Oh no, you found two 'mechs that you can't find a downside to, remove them from the game immediately PGI.

These mechs are too good to the point where it's pointless to take anything else - you see 20+ Stormcrows a game in CW. You see hardly any Ice Ferrets or Novas. I'm not saying we need to ruin them somehow, but I do think they should be given a slap on the wrist in some way, especially the Timber Wolf. The Timber Wolf can literally do everything, and actually do it effectively too. Go fast, be a heavy, snipe, brawl, lasers, ballistics, missile boat, jump jets, anything you want in a mech the Timber Wolf has. Why use a Summoner? Why use a Mad Dog? The only (ONLY) reason to use a Hellbringer is the ECM.

[Metus regem]

MechaBattler, on 24 December 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

Except the Timberwolf is not a jack of all trades. It's a Queen, at least. It can fill multiple roles better than other mechs on the Clan side.

Why should the Thunderbolt be nerfed, but the TimCrow remain the most represented mechs on the Clan side?

In TT the Timber Wolf was a jack-of-all-trades, in the Prime config, it did get more specialized in other configs, but it was giving up something to do it...

The D config is probably the most specialized config in the current time line, with 2 CERPPC's and 4 cSSRM6, but with 15DHS, meaning she runs supper hot, but hits like a truck, when she can get in the middle of your lines, as two of those streak racks are rear facing.

But back to my point, yes the Timber Wolf can do almost any role, but it cannot do them all at the same time.

Fate 6, on 24 December 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

These mechs are too good to the point where it's pointless to take anything else - you see 20+ Stormcrows a game in CW. You see hardly any Ice Ferrets or Novas. I'm not saying we need to ruin them somehow, but I do think they should be given a slap on the wrist in some way, especially the Timber Wolf. The Timber Wolf can literally do everything, and actually do it effectively too. Go fast, be a heavy, snipe, brawl, lasers, ballistics, missile boat, jump jets, anything you want in a mech the Timber Wolf has. Why use a Summoner? Why use a Mad Dog? The only (ONLY) reason to use a Hellbringer is the ECM.

Well if you really want to dump LRM or SRM/SSRM spam, you take the Mad Dog, it does have 6M.... But you do have ST's that are better damage magnets than those on the Awesome....

As for the Hellbringer, I am actually doing better in it, than I do with my Timber Wolves....

Edited by Metus regem, 24 December 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[cSand]

most of the guys whining about clan mechs being OP, you could put these guys in a 300 ton mech that goes 90KPH... they'd still lose, and complain

It's easier to whine and whine until things get nerfed so you don;t have to actually put in the effort to get better.

If people weren't so busy turning tail and runnign at the first sign of resistance, and took a little time to learn to aim better...

Edited by cSand, 24 December 2014 - 09:56 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Fate 6, on 24 December 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

These mechs are too good to the point where it's pointless to take anything else - you see 20+ Stormcrows a game in CW. You see hardly any Ice Ferrets or Novas. I'm not saying we need to ruin them somehow, but I do think they should be given a slap on the wrist in some way, especially the Timber Wolf. The Timber Wolf can literally do everything, and actually do it effectively too. Go fast, be a heavy, snipe, brawl, lasers, ballistics, missile boat, jump jets, anything you want in a mech the Timber Wolf has. Why use a Summoner? Why use a Mad Dog? The only (ONLY) reason to use a Hellbringer is the ECM.

So you hate its Omnipod selection then? Omnis don't have hardpoint inflation like IS battlemechs do and you would want to widen that gap even further?

As far as why no Ice Ferrets and Novas that is not nearly as much a question about the Stormcrow being too good as it is those mechs having no place in CW. The Nova is to frail to survive the "rush the generator" gameplan and the Ice Ferret has pathetic pod space and a lack of hardpoints so the only time you'll see it is if someone's top 3 'mechs leave them with 45 tons, like the 3 x Hellbringer deck. In the CW environment I actually prefer the Adder to the Ice Ferret whether on defense or on offense.

I don't know about any other groups but ours may not run Summoners but we run lots of Hellbringers and Mad Dogs. Besides ECM the Hellbringer has GREAT hardpoint locations, better than any other clan 'mech (seriously, finally some high mounted weapons. You can literally shoot 4 lasers over a friendly in front of you) and you can take 3 of them in your drop deck since it is only 65 tons.

The Mad Dog is only 60 tons and you can run a 4 x Mad Dog drop deck--it can boat short or long range missiles and has more pod space than our other heavies except for the Timberwolf and can pack up to 5E hardpoints still. With the popular "light rush" tactics by the IS we bring Streak Dogs (and 'Crows too admittedly) to curbstomp them.

With a 240 ton limit some 'mechs are just not going to find much use--Summoner, Gargoyle, and Dire Wolf being the main ones. The Summoner and Gargoyle have a similar problem--'mechs 5 tons up or 5 tons down from them either vastly outgun it at the same or similar speed or match it at a lighter weight. The Dire Wolf being 100 tons forces a lighter drop deck and most people playing Clans do not want to take lights especially if they are primarily Dire Wolf pilots.

Maybe when they implement the different tonnage for different worlds idea we will start to see a place for some of the least utilized 'mechs.

Edited by Kain Thul, 24 December 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Sethliopod]

KuroNyra, on 24 December 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

No, he will just lose about half his firepower and also lots of heatsink.
To lost a Side Torso in a Clan mech generally mean you have lost half your firepower.

To lose a Side Torso in an comparable (XL) IS mech, generally means you have lost your mech.

KuroNyra, on 24 December 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Let's not talk about the fact that it leave you completly vulnerable to the attack of the opponent.
You also forget to take the quircks in account who drasticly change the effectiveness of a mech.

This thread is about the best mechs. Quirks very intentionally took sub-par, low tier mechs and brought them up to speed. They did not take tier 1 mechs and make them better than the rest. (edit: this was, I hope, based on actual data from PGI, but who knows.)

KuroNyra, on 24 December 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

More firepower doesn't mean better mech. In fact, it can be quite the opposite. More firepower mean less heatsink, less heatsink mean less shoot before overheating. More overheating mean more vulnerable.

You also need to take in account the longer duration and the fact that it is easier to spread the damage of Clans mech.

Clans mech on the paper are extremely good. But there is an entire world between the paper and the battlefield.

Well, more firepower means less heatsinks for both factions equally...except that the Clan can fit three for every two IS, space-wise.

Yes the battlefield is a good test. I'm a bad player and my 6SRM/6SSRM Stormcrow consistently puts me, undeservedly, at the top of the team. It's easy-mode. It forgives my errors. It tears the s**t out of stuff in no time. It keeps wreaking havoc at 29% remaining health. IS mechs require me to build and play far smarter for similar results. All just my personal experience, of course.

Edited by Sethliopod, 24 December 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[GeistHrafn]

KuroNyra, on 24 December 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

Well, it depend on the point of view for the preference. I am a Clanner personnatly, but I would rather use a IS mech over a Clan mech. (That include the Timber Wolf, can't do something good with that ones. So far I only liked the Dire Wolf in Pugs.)

The Clans are harder to use, if you manage to do well, you will have a more dangerous mech. They were thought that way when implemented ingame.

But most of the people voting against the Clans Mech don't even used them and think that every Clan mech are OP.
Some of them would gladly say the Ice Ferret is OP because it's Clan.
You can be sur there is that type of guy who voted for the first option. Personatly, I voted for the second one.
"The best Clan mechs slightly outperform the best IS mechs"

But the first one? Nah, it's BS. Especially since the quircks. And that is not a point of view. It is a fact. But of course you will have the countless protector of the Clans Mechs are completly OP blablabla

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also chose the second option, "The best Clan mechs slightly outperform the best IS mechs". Key word in that line is "slightly". No nerf-hammer required, lore backs this up. Sheer selection and quirks have significantly balanced the field.

[Bhael Fire]

Neither side has the advantage. At this point, there are only good, mediocre, and bad mechs...and both sides have their share of each.

That said, I'd like to see the quirks continue to be tweaked...on both sides. No more nerfing.

[KuroNyra]

Sethliopod, on 24 December 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

To lose a Side Torso in an comparable (XL) IS mech, generally means you have lost your mech.

Comparable mech are XL only?
I hope you are joking or I have misunderstood.
Thunderbolt don't need XL in order to kick Timber Wolves butt, I don't need an XL in mine send back Mad Cat to the scrapyard.

Both XL and STD mech are comparable.

Edited by KuroNyra, 24 December 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Sethliopod, on 24 December 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Yes the battlefield is a good test. I'm a bad player and my 6SRM/6SSRM Stormcrow consistently puts me, undeservedly, at the top of the team. It's easy-mode. It forgives my errors. It tears the s**t out of stuff in no time. It keeps wreaking havoc at 29% remaining health. IS mechs require me to build and play far smarter for similar results. All just my personal experience, of course.

First, a Stormcrow can only mount 5 launchers total.

Second, the 5 x C-SSRM6 Streak Crow is a very "easy" build if you run a CAP to defeat ECM. When I say "easy" I mean no aiming involved not an "I win button" because you will be useless against fresh 'mechs 50 tons and up. You will, however, be the proverbial rock to the scissors of any light 'mech you come across. You can rack up high raw damage numbers with this build targeting larger 'mechs but that will be mostly wasted, spread damage that looks good on paper with your 1 or 2 kills. Good luck taking down an assault with this with 1/4 of your missiles going for their legs.

Now if you run 5 x C-SRM6 I would hardly call that easy mode. No lock on, jerky firing delay, short range. If you're good enough to dominate with SRMs then I would say that is skill, not "easy mode".

Edited by Kain Thul, 24 December 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[Metus regem]

Sethliopod, on 24 December 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Yes the battlefield is a good test. I'm a bad player and my 6SRM/6SSRM Stormcrow consistently puts me, undeservedly, at the top of the team. It's easy-mode. It forgives my errors. It tears the s**t out of stuff in no time. It keeps wreaking havoc at 29% remaining health. IS mechs require me to build and play far smarter for similar results. All just my personal experience, of course.

Then I must be the counter to you then, my two worst performing chassis are the Dire Wolf, fallowed by the Storm Crow and the Nova rounds out my worst 3...

[ApolloKaras]

I don't know if you guys have been using the Thunderbolt 9S....

[FupDup]

In a nutshell, this thread is about "Timberwolves and Stormcrows specifically are overpowered so we need to nerf every Clan weapon and Clan mech available instead of just the Timberwolf and Stormcrow."


We shouldn't try to balance entire factions in one swing unless the faction itself is relatively consistent internally. As we see with both sides, they're not. Both sides have clear winners and clear losers. Judging the losers based on the performance of the winners is, to be blunt, just dumb.

For example, we know that the vast majority of Clan dropdecks are either 3 SCR + 1 TBR or 2 HBR + 2 SCR. Does this mean we need to nerf the Clan LB 2-X and Mist Lynxes? No. Does this mean that the CSRM2 and Gargoyle are overpowered? No. All it means is that those specific mechs are overperforming, it doesn't indicate the performance of their faction as a whole. If anyone here tries to argue for nerfs to the Clan lights or other presently sub-par chassis, I will strange them through my monitor with an ethernet cable.

Likewise, we see the IS dominated by mechs like the Thunderbolts 9S and 5SS, Firestarters A and H, etc.


Balance can't be done on a faction-by-faction basis until the factions themselves are internally balanced, which they're not. Not by a long shot. Otherwise you end up wafflestomping mechs that are already bad or sometimes overbuffing mechs that are already good (if we buffed the entire IS as a whole).

Balance should be done on a mech-by-mech basis because each faction contains more than one mech, and those mechs are not currently created equal.

Edited by FupDup, 24 December 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[TheSilken]

Ugh I wish for the MW4 days when mechs/weapons were put into the game and not changed. People complain way too much in MWO. Suck it up, adapt to challenges, and move on. I like the people here I just wish that they could grow up and stop grumbling.

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 24 December 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Oh no, you found two 'mechs that you can't find a downside to, remove them from the game immediately PGI.

They're great mechs - clearly top performers in their class - but they do tend to run extremely hot as those are the builds they are best suited for.

They're powerful builds, but you really do have to deal with some extreme heat to get that power.


Personally I'm OK with a few mechs being standouts in their class, but that's just me - and while they aren't as versatile the 5SS and 9S give several TBR builds a solid run for their money - at 10 tons lighter, therefore the ability to stack more of them in a drop deck (up to 3 actually).


For example, I'm OK with the fact that several Firestarters are the best in their class.

Actually, I think they are the best bang for your buck "ton for ton" vs. every IS mech 50 tons and lower, and are usually better choices than all of those 50T and lower mechs as well.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 December 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[John80sk]

King Crab vs Direwolf? Roughly equal.

Thud vs Timberwolf? Timberwolf by a hair because of the versatility. Equal in CW because the Thud costs you 10 less tons.

Crow vs ...? It's hard to compare the Stormcrow to anything because there's a large variety of good IS mediums now. I'd call it equal because IS mediums can match a Stormcrow in most roles, they just need a different chassis for each role.

... vs Firestarter? Firestarter, can't think of a clan light I'd take over a Firestarter.