42 replies to this topic

[Charles Seneca]

As weapons have gradually become more and more powerful in an attempt to balance them, mech longevity under fire has slowly but surely been deteriorating.

Rather than being giant, heavily armoured war machines, mechs feel like they are made from paper mache. Ironically, this is more true the heavier the mech is, with light mechs suffering least
due to their small size, speed and rubbish hit reg and assault mechs suffering most due to their large size and lack of mobility.

The onset of IS quirks has simply exacerbated the problem. In a nutshell, MECHS NEED MORE ARMOUR! Except light mechs which need a miracle in order to hit them... but that's another story.

[Macster16]

TTK (Time To Kill) has been discussed at length in numerous other topics, especially when the first pass of quirks were implemented. Most agree TTK is on the short side at the moment while a handful seem to think it's too long. Suggestions have ranged from increasing armour values as you suggest to implementing more def quirks instead of weapon oriented ones.

Me? I feel TTK is a tad on the short side and wouldn't mind seeing it increased somehow, but am not too bothered with where things are at at the moment.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

A Heat cap of 30 would be a good place to start.

After that I'd consider a 25% boost to armor, and shore up outliers through tweaking quirks further.

There are going to be more quirk passes done, so I'm looking forward to what the devs have planned also.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Praetor Knight, on 25 December 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

A Heat cap of 30 would be a good place to start.

After that I'd consider a 25% boost to armor, and shore up outliers through tweaking quirks further.

There are going to be more quirk passes done, so I'm looking forward to what the devs have planned also.

Lol, a heat cap of 30 would pretty much solve alot of our PPFLD 80pt lolpha issues....paired up with ghost heat? Firing 4 LPL, some mediums and a AC5 all at once or in very rapid succession? That would be what? 40 heat from the LPL+ GH, some heat from the Mediums and the AC5, the mech would melt down....

It would be best to chain fire then. Or do no more then fire 2 weapons at a time. ERPPCs would still suck and could finally justify getting 15/15, as you couldnt feasibly fire more then 1 at a time. And finally, Ghost heat could be removed. It would also make smaller lasers and mediums alot better, as they deal damage, but without all the extra heat from bigger lasers. It would give Ballistics a more defined role and more along the lines of what they are in TT

Energy: No ammo dependency, good for longevity, heat management required
Ballistic: Entirely ammo dependent, only good for short battles, very low heat generation

30 heat scale we would prolly see a shift from boats to more balanced loadouts.

You wanna have some Cannons and Missiles to fire while your mech cools off, you want lasers to fire when your cannons run out.

Prolly why the Hellbringer Prime is setup like it is. 4 Backups to its 2 CERPPC...

[Escef]

I think TTK is about right at the moment. TTK just goes way down when you get focus fire. Even a Dire Wolf, Atlas, or King Crab will crumple fast under concentrated attack from 3 or more mechs.

[Wintersdark]

Praetor Knight, on 25 December 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

A Heat cap of 30 would be a good place to start.

After that I'd consider a 25% boost to armor, and shore up outliers through tweaking quirks further.

There are going to be more quirk passes done, so I'm looking forward to what the devs have planned also.

Lower heat cap, with increased dissipation, and we're good. While increased dissipation would allow many mechs to be or approach heat neutrality, that would only be under circumstances of limited alphas/chain firing. A lower heat cap entirely removes the "need" for ghost heat, too.

Koniving has many, long, math filled posts exploring the topic at exhaustive length =)

Edited by Wintersdark, 25 December 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[InspectorG]

TTK is decent now.
Lights can get one-shotted.
Assaults will drop quickly under coordinated fire by @3 average mechs.
Feels decent.

30 Heat cap. Would be hrdcore and slow the match down.

BUT

It would give more power to zerg rushers in CW cuz defense wouldnt be able to fire(alpha) fast enough to stop them.

[BigFatGator]

TTK is only short if you sit there, stare down multiple targets, and think you are going to get in your licks when getting hit by 3 other mechs. Or **** around at the beginning of the match and get your armor down ('It's just yellow-orange, pretty much full strength right') and then get surprised when you engage for real that you don't have much armor left and die quickly.

Brawling is pretty well balanced right now. Dual gauss doing 30 pinpoint at long range is a bit much, but can't think of a fix that wouldn't be worse than the problem.

[El Bandito]

30 heat cap is not gonna stop Dual AC20 King Crab, or Dual Gauss Jager. Those two need additional something.

BigFatGator, on 25 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Dual gauss doing 30 pinpoint at long range is a bit much, but can't think of a fix that wouldn't be worse than the problem.

Easy. Just reduce the limit of Gauss that can be fired together to 1. Currently it is 2. Perhaps the same should be done to AC20 as well.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 December 2014 - 08:37 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

InspectorG, on 25 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

30 Heat cap. Would be hrdcore and slow the match down.

BUT

It would give more power to zerg rushers in CW cuz defense wouldnt be able to fire(alpha) fast enough to stop them.

The zerg also wouldn't be able to sustain fire on the generator at the rate they do now. I'd say the impact on zerging would be a wash.

[CocoaJin]

Are they really intended to be seen as heavily armored? They use ablative armor, not hardened armor. A bicycle helmet is technically ablative armor. I don't get the impression mech armor was intended to defeat weapons fire, just delay it's inevitable success.

Mechs aren't the Bismark, they won't just sit there bouncing rounds off the hull...every shot hurts, there is no such thing as an ordnance too small or too weak, everything hurts, some more than others, but every hit is peeling off protection.

[LordKnightFandragon]

InspectorG, on 25 December 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

TTK is decent now.
Lights can get one-shotted.
Assaults will drop quickly under coordinated fire by @3 average mechs.
Feels decent.

30 Heat cap. Would be hrdcore and slow the match down.

BUT

It would give more power to zerg rushers in CW cuz defense wouldnt be able to fire(alpha) fast enough to stop them.

BUt then they could spread the game out over more of the map. Add many guns, make the guns tougher. add several objectives everywhere.....Secure objectives, destroy objectives, different game play in one combined gameplay type that kinda makes zerging in a big deathball impossible.....if you wanna win that is...

[lsp]

No, don't stand still or run across open fields.

[Mcgral18]

Damage has always had a higher ratio than armour from PGIs translation from TT. ~3x damage but only 2x IS+A.

Quirks made things slightly faster, with some items being....big. AC100 for the Hunch, as an example, compared to the AC60 of other unquirked mechs.


It's the magical convergence that really does it, though. Being able to place 50+ damage on the same pixel hurts thing very efficiently.

[NovaFury]

Mcgral18, on 25 December 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

It's the magical convergence that really does it, though. Being able to place 50+ damage on the same pixel hurts thing very efficiently.

Just "aiming torso" in general pretty much doubles damage in comparison to tabletop, because you're hitting 3 locations instead of 7. You pretty much have to intentionally twist to use your arm armor against even remotely decent pilots.

[FupDup]

The root of all evil:



Doesn't mean we need random hit locations like TT (because that would actually suck to play) but guns converging certainly shouldn't occur instantly, and should be breakable under certain specific conditions.

Edited by FupDup, 25 December 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Burktross]

I think convergence should be implemented, but not a whole new thing that will literally revolutionize the way MWO is played.

Torso Mounted Weapons:
-Minimum convergence is decent
-Maximum convergence is never perfect.
-Convergence is slower
-less recoil.

Arm Mounted Weapons:
-Minimum Convergence is inaccurate
-Maximum convergence is near perfect
-Convergence is fast
-Most recoil

[Koniving]

Charles Seneca, on 25 December 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

As weapons have gradually become more and more powerful in an attempt to balance them, mech longevity under fire has slowly but surely been deteriorating.

Rather than being giant, heavily armoured war machines, mechs feel like they are made from paper mache. Ironically, this is more true the heavier the mech is, with light mechs suffering least
due to their small size, speed and rubbish hit reg and assault mechs suffering most due to their large size and lack of mobility.

The onset of IS quirks has simply exacerbated the problem. In a nutshell, MECHS NEED MORE ARMOUR! Except light mechs which need a miracle in order to hit them... but that's another story.

IS Quirks is the lit cigar dropped on the powder keg.

Your solution is to pour gasoline on it.

Stand back for a second, and consider dowsing it with water before the whole place explodes.
Quite simply, mechs need to deliver Less Damage.

How to go about this? Quite simply they can either fire more frequently while doing much less, or fire less frequently while doing about the same per shot.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 25 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

The root of all evil:



Doesn't mean we need random hit locations like TT (because that would actually suck to play) but guns converging certainly shouldn't occur instantly, and should be breakable under certain specific conditions.

TT is more one weapon fired at a time, at a possibly moving target, while possibly moving, all the while applying other factors like heat, the human element, etc.

Meanwhile:
From the MaxTech rules:

Quote

Linking Weapons
Before the game begins, and also during the End Phase of any turn, a player may designate certain weapons to be linked on his BattleMechs or vehicles. Any or all weapons on a single unit can be linked, but they must be able to fire into the same firing arcs. A unit may also have more than one linked group of weapons. For example a Black Hawk Prime could linked the six medium lasers in its left arm as one group and the six medium lasers in its right arm as a second group. Linked weapons must be clearly indicated on a unit's record sheet.

Linked weapons must always be fired at the same target, though all linked weapons in a given group need not fire every time. The controlling player makes only one to-hit roll for the entire group of linked weapons. The to-hit number for the group is determined according to the worst range and other modifiers in the group. If the roll fails, all the inked weapons miss. If succeeds, all the linked weapons hit.

Essentially what we do now... if not all we do now. The issue is... the worst range/modifiers mean nothing in this game because convergence and the delay to acquire it against a moving target while moving (or even a stationary target while stationary)...doesn't exist in this game.

Edited by Koniving, 25 December 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[MechaBattler]

I like the idea of greater hit points for internals better then an armor increase.