60 replies to this topic

[Kaldrenborn]

First off, the clan mechs are supierior, like they should be. So 12 Clan vs 12 IS makes it very difficult for the IS teams, but still possible.

Second, clans fight in groups called Stars, not lances. A star is 5 mechs. A lance is 4 mechs.

2 Clan stars (10) vs 3 IS lances (12) sounds like more of a "fair" fight, and it keeps the game true to canon.

If I am wrong here please let me know, but this is something that bugs me. A lot.

EDIT: For those reading only this and not the rest of the topic.

I mean unnerfed, even buffed, clans vs IS mechs.

I am not saying clans are OP, just superior like they should be.

Edited by DustyHardtail, 27 December 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Roll the Clans back to Public Test 1 state and we can drop in 10 against 12. But I doubt anyone would want that.

[Girth Fillmore]

This has been addressed multiple times by PGI.

Per Russ Bullock:

10v12

We have come to the conclusion that, for the foreseeable future, this is NOT a viable option for MWO, here are some of the reasons why:
UI redesign of the pre-game, scoreboard and end of round screen.
New rules for tie breakers surrounding the uneven team sizes
Significant re-factoring of the match maker to develop team sizes that don’t match.
'Mech chassis tonnage balancing will no longer work.
Elo will no longer work with 10 vs 12 team calculations.
These elements alone (not including other edge cases) represent at least several additional weeks, if not months, into refactoring and testing time before they would be ready for deployment. That is time that will directly impact the development and delivery of CW modules 2+.

But perhaps more importantly than that, if we went down this path the overall message to the community is basically “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.

[Kaldrenborn]

Thanks Girth, for the explanation.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Girth Fillmore, on 26 December 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

This has been addressed multiple times by PGI.

Per Russ Bullock:

10v12

We have come to the conclusion that, for the foreseeable future, this is NOT a viable option for MWO, here are some of the reasons why:
UI redesign of the pre-game, scoreboard and end of round screen.
New rules for tie breakers surrounding the uneven team sizes
Significant re-factoring of the match maker to develop team sizes that don’t match.
'Mech chassis tonnage balancing will no longer work.
Elo will no longer work with 10 vs 12 team calculations.
These elements alone (not including other edge cases) represent at least several additional weeks, if not months, into refactoring and testing time before they would be ready for deployment. That is time that will directly impact the development and delivery of CW modules 2+.

But perhaps more importantly than that, if we went down this path the overall message to the community is basically “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.

You know I agree...

For PUG play.

I'm seeing a disturbing trend in CW of clan teams utilizing mass Streak 6+tag boats... which eats up pretty much anything the IS has going for it. So having an, essentially 8 mech bonus in CW over the clans for IS would help even out said types of tacitcs.

When I single Stormcrow can blast through 3+ enemy IS mechs heavier than it'self because it's massing SSRm's like that, I think there's an inbalance, a horrible one.

So I think that, for Community Warfare, it's an option that should be looked at by PGI again.

[MechaDonkey]

Dunno about you guys, but when my unit goes IS, we eat the clans alive.

The reverse is also true, however.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Too late for that. Clan mechs and IS mechs are (and still are being) balanced for 12 vs 12 matches. To make it 10 v 12 it would require removal of most of IS quirks as well as add more positive quirks to Clan mechs.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

I would like it, for the flavour, but the clans would need hefty buffing for it to be viable. I'd like it, but I can live without it. I'd rather see development resources put into new game modes for both CW and normal games.

[SickerthanSars]

another IS puggie wondering why he loses to organized teams, must be because the clan mechs are OP. Funnily enough when playing against IS 12 mans the matches are close or we actually lose. This just further strengthens the argument to keep pugs out of cw

[Demuder]

Sure, clans should drop 10v12.

But first, un-nerf Clan weapons, remove the customization shenanigans on IS mechs (so that they are not more customizable than Omnimechs), remove IS quirks, fix the hitboxes on Firestarters and Spiders, and you are set for a very fair 10v12 game.

Otherwise, the way this is going, pretty soon Clans are going to be asking for 12 Clan vs 10 IS mech drops.

On a more serious note though, Clans are better only in the fact that their mechs are harder to mess up as far as builds go. Nothing is going to save IS pilots when they try to stomp through the gates in an unorganized, non-optimized build, shoot-at-me group. An organized IS group is quite a bit more efficient than the Clans right now.

[Satan n stuff]

Flash Frame, on 27 December 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

You know I agree...

For PUG play.

I'm seeing a disturbing trend in CW of clan teams utilizing mass Streak 6+tag boats... which eats up pretty much anything the IS has going for it. So having an, essentially 8 mech bonus in CW over the clans for IS would help even out said types of tacitcs.

When I single Stormcrow can blast through 3+ enemy IS mechs heavier than it'self because it's massing SSRm's like that, I think there's an inbalance, a horrible one.

So I think that, for Community Warfare, it's an option that should be looked at by PGI again.

Mass streak 6 is pretty weak, it's mass lasers or SRM6 you need to worry about. The only thing streaks do well is taking out lights, and even then only because there are so many of them, SRM6 + aim is much more effective.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 27 December 2014 - 02:40 AM.

[Nightshade24]

The clan mechs are not superior to the inner sphere for 3 reasons.

1) You got the firestarter. That's 32 spewing out of a mech running 150 kph and can jump over walls.

We got no mech that can go 150 kph, We only got like 1 mech that can jump over the wall from the ground level. And We do not have any lights, mediums, or heavies that can do that DPS. While the Assaults would just hinder the team by running spammed light lasers with short range on a mech walking under 50 kph while the rest of the line up is forced to be the light mechs.

This mech has won so many attack games it's not funny and it has ruined the assault and heavy clan mech days on defending while these mechs are trying to go to the base. You know how hard it is to rush the base with a mech going 7 kph due to being legged by a mech you can't keep up in a torso turning. (and even when you do get them, you have huge beam duration and AC's htat fire in bursts. not really the best for killing lights)

What ever argument you hold by talking about the timberwolf and stormcrow is countered by your victors, thunderbolts, and firestarters.


2) Your mechs got quirks, we don't. come back after the clans have the quirckening.



Now my proposal is that 10 vs 12 would work in CW if clans can take a line up off 5 mechs instead of 5.

(Also adding quirks for clan mechs and making the lasers not hotter then inner sphere ER PPC's would help)


Also due to the fact it's 10 man group, replace the leopard dropships with broadswords. they are practically the same but it is a clan dropship that has way more weapons and drops 5 mechs and is 100 tons heavier.

Go on sarna to see the difference.

[Lily from animove]

DustyHardtail, on 26 December 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

First off, the clan mechs are supierior, like they should be. So 12 Clan vs 12 IS makes it very difficult for the IS teams, but still possible.

Second, clans fight in groups called Stars, not lances. A star is 5 mechs. A lance is 4 mechs.

2 Clan stars (10) vs 3 IS lances (12) sounds like more of a "fair" fight, and it keeps the game true to canon.

If I am wrong here please let me know, but this is something that bugs me. A lot.

you deserve to be slapped, for the first sentence,

and you deserve to pilot only novas for 100 matches for the second.

[Ian G]

Nightshade24, on 27 December 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

The clan mechs are not superior to the inner sphere for 3 reasons.

1) You got the firestarter. That's 32 spewing out of a mech running 150 kph and can jump over walls.

We got no mech that can go 150 kph, We only got like 1 mech that can jump over the wall from the ground level. And We do not have any lights, mediums, or heavies that can do that DPS. While the Assaults would just hinder the team by running spammed light lasers with short range on a mech walking under 50 kph while the rest of the line up is forced to be the light mechs.

This mech has won so many attack games it's not funny and it has ruined the assault and heavy clan mech days on defending while these mechs are trying to go to the base. You know how hard it is to rush the base with a mech going 7 kph due to being legged by a mech you can't keep up in a torso turning. (and even when you do get them, you have huge beam duration and AC's htat fire in bursts. not really the best for killing lights)

What ever argument you hold by talking about the timberwolf and stormcrow is countered by your victors, thunderbolts, and firestarters.


2) Your mechs got quirks, we don't. come back after the clans have the quirckening.



Now my proposal is that 10 vs 12 would work in CW if clans can take a line up off 5 mechs instead of 5.

(Also adding quirks for clan mechs and making the lasers not hotter then inner sphere ER PPC's would help)

Funny, only clanners say there is no balance problem. And they complain about quirks. And you sir, say there are three reasons. IS the third one invisible or only viewable when you got yourself loads if clanmechs for MC?

But your first two arguments are worth considering, but i think they are wrong.

First, the Firestarter. IS can only take 24 of them, then they must take something else. It's good on the offense, but has nothing on the defense. So if you attack, firestarters shouldn't stop you.

You got the range and the turrets. Use locked LRM's or your superior laser range against them. And if you say they got ECM, i ask which of the Firestarters will carry it?

Solution: Don't use direwhales, use Timbers, hellbringers, hell even in my Warhawk i shoot down Firestarters regulary. It's no big deal.


Your secon argument really got me thinking. Are quirks totally op?

Nope, they aren't or you would see only IS mechs in pugging play. But still many Clan mechs are there. Why is that so?

Because of two reasons. Range and DPS. With 5 notable exceptions (LB-X10, Gauss Rifle, Flamer, Machine Gun and U-AC-5) Clan weapon are superioir in both fields.

Now add the facts that Clan mechs are more durable (hey side torso gone and you are still in that game) and faster than IS mechs (well not all of your assaults qualify ) , and you might see why Clan mechs are still better than IS mechs.

But don't believe me, just see what metamechs says to it for comp players:

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/

and for pugging:

http://metamechs.com...ists/solo-list/


Cya on the battlefield.

[Cygone]

ANOTHER NERF CLANS THREAD!!

CLAN MECHS ARE NOT OVERPOWERED!

You just a BAD IS Player if you cant compete!

[Nightshade24]

Ian G, on 27 December 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

Funny, only clanners say there is no balance problem. And they complain about quirks. And you sir, say there are three reasons. IS the third one invisible or only viewable when you got yourself loads if clanmechs for MC?

But your first two arguments are worth considering, but i think they are wrong.

First, the Firestarter. IS can only take 24 of them, then they must take something else. It's good on the offense, but has nothing on the defense. So if you attack, firestarters shouldn't stop you.

You got the range and the turrets. Use locked LRM's or your superior laser range against them. And if you say they got ECM, i ask which of the Firestarters will carry it?

Solution: Don't use direwhales, use Timbers, hellbringers, hell even in my Warhawk i shoot down Firestarters regulary. It's no big deal.


Your secon argument really got me thinking. Are quirks totally op?

Nope, they aren't or you would see only IS mechs in pugging play. But still many Clan mechs are there. Why is that so?

Because of two reasons. Range and DPS. With 5 notable exceptions (LB-X10, Gauss Rifle, Flamer, Machine Gun and U-AC-5) Clan weapon are superioir in both fields.

Now add the facts that Clan mechs are more durable (hey side torso gone and you are still in that game) and faster than IS mechs (well not all of your assaults qualify ) , and you might see why Clan mechs are still better than IS mechs.

But don't believe me, just see what metamechs says to it for comp players:

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/

and for pugging:

http://metamechs.com...ists/solo-list/


Cya on the battlefield.

I lately got bad insomia and rarely slept. I listed 3 things until I noticed that I forgot what the 3rd problem was half way typing it and it was a bit disorganized with problem 2.

The thing is I do not feel like I should be forced to only use stormcrows and timberwolfs in the battlefield in CW because every other mech is underpowered.


Anyway I believe quirks do make certain mechs OP. Both IS and Clan pilots agree there is something ****ed up about the firestarter.

Especially the fact not a single one has a flamer quirk even though this mech was DEDICATED to use a flamer in BT.

Also quirks was an equalizer for the Inner sphere mechs. Now we see awesomes on par with victors, Hunchbacks on par with shadowhawks. Locusts as popular as jenners. etc.


I am not sayign the timberwolf needs a 50% reduced heat on large pulse lasers and er mediums and get a 20 armour point bonus to each torso.

I am saying have something like a 25% LBX 5 cooldown for the kitfox, Increase ballistic velocity for the Ice ferret and Gargoyle, Reduced ER PPC heat for the warhawks. etc.

Something reasonable to make these mechs more valid. ( also I think a missile quirk for timberwolfs should be one of the only things they should get. We all know they are amazing at there laser abilities but I have yet to see a missile serious player do well in any game mode)


Clans are not more durable. In some senses. If you take 2 side torsos off any clan mech it'll die. do the same to any IS mech with a standard engine and they don't die. (Not all mechs are born to be XL engine-ers in the inner sphere. The centurion is a good example of a mech that is still battle ready with no torso)

Also I believe the heat for Clan lasers are a bit out of wack.

an ER medium laser does nearly as much heat as a inner sphere Large laser. (and keep in mind the damage, range, and dps differences. )

I know it is an ER laser but the thing is the clans do not have normal lasers outside of training because there ER variants have the exact same heat and out did the normal lasers in every single way.

Another example is the Nova Prime. Lore wise = it could alpha strike without over heating. And it can do this a few times over.
Nova prime in game = even with small lasers, firing them in 6's. Will make you hot pretty fast.

I do not want the ER medium laser to only produce 4 heat like the inner sphere but It really makes it hard to use this weapon which should be like a back up or secondary weapon to your main weapons (ie LRM boat with a few meds, lights carrying only a few meds on a light mech. or a few on a large assault to back up the other weapons)

I got a direwolf, It is the LRM configeration of the widowmaker. It is personally my most favorite direwolf to use in CW due to it's strength at being good at any range and is more better at heat then the regular widowmaker (replace the 2 lrm 20's for 2 er ppc's for the normal widowmaker)

it has 2 LRM 20's, a UAC 20, 2 Large pulse lasers, and 3 mediums. Funny enough the 3 mediums are the hottest thing on the mech. these 3 tons produce more heat then the 12 tons of pulse laser, the 10 tons off missile. 12 ton of an UAC 20.

heat
3 tons of back up weapons > 15 tons + off other weapons.

You shouldn't tell me "Do not use direwolf in CW" or any other clan mech besides 2.
Meanwhile IS can do what ever they please.

Another reason I highly support quirks is that compaired to other clan mechs they are not unique or underpowered.

For instance what is the difference between 3 stormcrow configurations all using the same omnipods?
Or what makes the ice ferret prime better then the other two or what makes the direwolf B on par with the other two?

I think we need quirks to create some uniqueness between each configuration. I am a bit tired hearing guides on mechs all saying "as soon you master it, sell these 2 alt configs" or what ever. or "never use the ice ferret prime".


Mini rant over. My proposal doesn't make clans OP in pug matches nor do they over take IS in CW. as I said to go along with the changes is to drop the 12 man group to 10 man. Replace the leopard dropships with broadswords. (carry 5 mechs each, and more firepower. this will be the substitute for the fact it's 2 dropships firing and not 3. and is perfect to carry 10 mechs). and change the bay of 4 mechs to 5 mechs for the clans to drop with.

IS max tons in mission = 11520
Clan max tons in mission = 12000

this may make it look like the Clans have the advantage by having more tonnage but there is the factor that it's only 10 mechs in the field at any time, not 12. it seems balanced to me.

Also you stated we should use missiles. meanwhile clan mechs have no advantage with missiles besides they can still hit within min range (basicly only worth it for kill assists and not doing 0 damage if the enemy moves 1 meter towards you). They spread so the IS mechs AMS to take it all out and also the IS fire at a much more rapid speed. (also neither timber or hellbringer is good at boating LRM's.)

I know I forgot something and I am sure you will pick it up and hit me on the back of the head after I go to sleep but I can't remember. I think it had something to do with the public matches vs CW matches

Edit:

Funny story about the ECM thing. I actually want PGI to release the ECM variant of the Firestarter. The Firestarter S1.

Ofc after the quirks change the meta for firestarters, fix the flamer. and make the S a lot more better in quirks over the S1.

Idk. I just have a soft spot for alt configs and variants that can be added in the game but are not...

Kitfox A, cataphract 3l, catapult C3. Nova-A, etc,,, i'm looking at you.

Edited by Nightshade24, 27 December 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Ian G, on 27 December 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

But don't believe me, just see what metamechs says to it for comp players:

http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/

and for pugging:

http://metamechs.com...ists/solo-list/


Cya on the battlefield.

can not really agree with the lists, especiallly the hellbringer, listing them together with the TBR is a joke. Only in long range may he be a T1 mech, otherwise not, the unbalanced hardpointdistribution gives the mech a defined weakpoint, and in every medium or below range people can very easily take out his strong side leaving it very useless.

Don't believe every list someone else does, using the own brain is often something very helpful as well.

Especially with the gargoyle in this list I doubt it is truly a list people should believe in that much.

[Kaldrenborn]

I was looking for general discussion, not a fight or name calling. I am not calling for the clans to be nerfed, I think the nerfs they have already implemented are ridiculous. I have purchased every top tier clan package (well, no gold mechs) and I love my clan mechs. But for pugging (I should have specified, sorry) 12 clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs is in favor of the clan mechs. I do drop with a group, I am in a unit. Somtimes I just like to pug.

Lily from animove, on 27 December 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

you deserve to be slapped, for the first sentence,

and you deserve to pilot only novas for 100 matches for the second.

The first sentence is true, they are superior. The only real advantage we have is the ability to have really fast lights. And the nova's are fun, I do well in Novas. STOCK Nova Primes actually.

All I am saying is for pugging, clans should get the nerfs they recieved removed and drop in groups of 10. But that won't ever happen - too much work.

I don't mean to come accross as an IS noob claming clans are OP. I never said they are OP, I just said "they are superior, like they should be."

[Aresye]

The latest update on balance Clans won 63% of matches with an average team Elo advantage of 100-120.

Here's straight from the Wikipedia article on the Elo rating system:

Quote

A player whose rating is 100 points greater than their opponent's is expected to win 64% of the time.

Source: http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system

Gee, that seems awfully close to balanced in terms of what the devs observed. Probably explains why when you have a comp team of IS vs a comp team of Clans, they seem to each win an equal number of times, with teamwork being the main factor.

[H I A S]

ugrakarma, on 27 December 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

Too late for that. Clan mechs and IS mechs are (and still are being) balanced for 12 vs 12 matches. To make it 10 v 12 it would require removal of most of IS quirks as well as add more positive quirks to Clan mechs.

This.

Clan vs IS Balance is very close at this Moment (-some Chassis on both side).

Edited by HiasRGB, 27 December 2014 - 08:27 AM.