60 replies to this topic

[Xtrekker]

System designed in such a way that it does not allow for one of the MOST OBVIOUS traits of Clan warfare (stars vs lances), and apparently in a manner that cannot be fixed. It's like PGI has a lot of cooks and the dishwasher stepped up to be head chef.

Ridiculously poor, amateur planning. 'nuff said.

[Kaldrenborn]

Metus regem, on 27 December 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

I would happily drop as a binary against a company, if our mechs were not the shadows of their former table top selves.

How ever due to a coding issues, PGI had to keep it 12 on 12, and that necesitated the need to turn the clan mechs into watered down versions of what they should be.

And if you do not think they are watered down, I recommend playing some TT or MegaMek, at 3050 to see what I mean.

Oh I totally agree. They are WAYYY watered down. Even the stock Nova Prime was decent before the medium laser nerf. I have played TT some and I have a few dozen of the novels, the clans are super powerful in lore.

Jabilo, on 27 December 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Not at the moment.

Clan tech nerfs and IS quirks have been introduced to balance the game 12 vs 12.

I personally voted for 10 vs 12 right at the beginning (with clan tech left as it was originally - far more powerful).

In their wisdom the devs decided to not go that path and so I am afraid that ship has sailed.

Silly devs... I was hoping it'd be 10vs12 from the beginning too. I really don't think calculating Elo would be that difficult, 10 players of elo ~X (give or take) in the clan mechs like they should be should fair up pretty squarely, if not still at an advantage against 12 IS players of elo ~X.

Xtrekker, on 27 December 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

System designed in such a way that it does not allow for one of the MOST OBVIOUS traits of Clan warfare (stars vs lances), and apparently in a manner that cannot be fixed. It's like PGI has a lot of cooks and the dishwasher stepped up to be head chef.

Ridiculously poor, amateur planning. 'nuff said.

Agreed. They'll figure it out though. I hope. They're learning.

[ice trey]

Russ Bullock, on 26 December 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

But perhaps more importantly than that, if we went down this path the overall message to the community is basically “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win”. This is not what we communicated to the MWO community as to our plans for the Clan mech’s and how they would balance within MWO.

Clearly, he hasn't seen the state of CW's clan border, or the overall reactions of the IS community regarding Clan V IS matches.

Edited by ice trey, 27 December 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[MischiefSC]

DustyHardtail, on 26 December 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

First off, the clan mechs are supierior, like they should be. So 12 Clan vs 12 IS makes it very difficult for the IS teams, but still possible.

Second, clans fight in groups called Stars, not lances. A star is 5 mechs. A lance is 4 mechs.

2 Clan stars (10) vs 3 IS lances (12) sounds like more of a "fair" fight, and it keeps the game true to canon.

If I am wrong here please let me know, but this is something that bugs me. A lot.

EDIT: For those reading only this and not the rest of the topic.

I mean unnerfed, even buffed, clans vs IS mechs.

I am not saying clans are OP, just superior like they should be.

If Clan mechs are superior to IS mechs in MW:O then they are the inevitable upgrade as players get better. Better players will go to better mechs, so the longer someone plays the more they move into Clans.

So you create an environment where vet players are grinding newbies in inferior mechs.

You absolutely do NOT have the 60% of the games population in IS mechs you'd need to make 12v10 matchmaking work. Nobody wants to be the expendable redshirt faction.

It is a doomed idea and can never, will never work.

[Cementi]

All quirks would have to be removed and then clan mechs which were designed with larger hit boxes would have to be redesigned for something like this to work.

The fact is Clan Mechs are NOT superior. You may have been able to make this arguement before the quirkening but even then I would have only given Clan Mech's a slight edge as their blatantly bulky designs make even the lights walking barns that are super easy to not only hit but pick locations. People will undoubtedly mention the stormcrow however it pales in comparision to Spider's and Firestarters and is at least IMO on par with Shadowhawks in terms of how forgiving the hit boxes are.

With so many fixed slots limiting loadouts, engines(clan lights are far far behind almost any IS light), jump jets, heck just the placement of structure and armor slots so that you cannot mount certain big ballistics in some hardpoints because of space. The fact is that the flexibility afforded by omnipods is mostly removed by these factors. For most builds there is really only a single omnipod that is viable for that slot.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy my clan mechs and have few regrets (Adder: I wanted to love you but your CT is easier to hit than....well anything other than a Dire Wolf. Myst Lynx: your arms are bigger than your side torso's. Ice Ferret I had really hoped you would be like the Cicada I love.....but you are not.) However I love my IS mechs just as much, possibly more at least till a significant quirk pass is done on Clan's.

Yes I know people will point out I am running a Ghost Bear tag as of this post but the fact is I am in a merc company and am only running this faction for the time being. It was a vote that I abstained from because quite frankly I love both factions. They both have strengths and weaknesses but none so much that I would say one is above the other.

[IONCHRONO]

Tonnage limits IS has a higher tonnage limit to clan, problem solved.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

I would say with the quirkening both sides are fairly well matched, probably a slight lead to IS tech with usable light meths and Thuds with excessively good quirks.

The problem in regular CW games is the mis match of players, there are far more IS players that bring bad mechs with bad builds than there are Clan.

Some of that is down to the divide in total chassis but also down to the fact the Clans have 3 maybe 4 workable chassis

[Kotev]

Clan mechs are not OP. The edge have IS mechs with the quirks. If someone dont agree i sugest them to buy Clan mechs and try them. Besides all of this, pilot skill is most important if one mech is good or bad.

[Demuder]

Ian G, on 27 December 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

Funny, only clanners say there is no balance problem. And they complain about quirks. And you sir, say there are three reasons. IS the third one invisible or only viewable when you got yourself loads if clanmechs for MC?

But your first two arguments are worth considering, but i think they are wrong.

Actually, the Clanners are saying there is a balance problem:

Firestarters and Spiders with their broken hitboxes and ludicrous speed are an unbeatable finisher in Cw since Clans have no PPFLD worth mentioning.

The quirks on the TDR and the STK are simply ridiculous and if every IS pilot bothered to actually read the fine print about it, would bring a couple of those in CW and stop complaining about range and OP-ness of Clan death rays.

Clanners have simply given up complaining about being pigeonholed into hot, long burning lasers and SRMs since all their other weapons are pretty much useless, including the ERPPC - except on the Direwhale, with all it's flaws.

So yeah, there is a balance problem. It's just that apparently, not every Clan player that looses a match against better players cares to make a new thread to whine about it.

[SickerthanSars]

ice trey, on 27 December 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Clearly, he hasn't seen the state of CW's clan border, or the overall reactions of the IS community regarding Clan V IS matches.

if by overall reactions of the IS community you mean the handful of same posters, who are pugs that keep crying clans are OP. Not a single organized IS comp team has voiced this sentiment, theyve complained about the lack of balance to compensate for numbers IE planet zerg, which unlike the "clans areOP" argument actually has some merit and is a legitimate gripe.

[ztac]

Not this gain? I have no problems dropping as a 10 man vs a 12man if they put clans to where they should be. Other than that this would just be yet another nerf and seriously the clans are already behind the IS in terms of firepower now.

IS have a lot of advantages and now they want even more..... LEARN TO PLAY ! (this is bad as I am a bad player , but even I can rip the current 'balancing ' apart which is pro IS right now).

How about a new poll 'who thinks clan mechs should start with one leg?' Maybe you would be happy then?

But I for one am all for putting clan mechs as they should be in stars and proper clan capability , And I can assure you that you really would have something to complain about then!

Edited by ztac, 28 December 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Kaldrenborn]

ztac, on 28 December 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

But I for one am all for putting clan mechs as they should be in stars and proper clan capability , And I can assure you that you really would have something to complain about then!

I would actually love this.

[NadeMagnet]

I voted no because clans have been nerfed to the point that there is really little difference between IS and clan to justify playing 2 down from the get go. When clans first came out I would of voted yes not just because it would of been a simple way to balance but because in lore IS almost always outnumbered clan. The whole clan system was based around bidding the smallest amount of forces possible to still be successful.

[kf envy]

DustyHardtail, on 26 December 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

First off, the clan mechs are supierior, like they should be. So 12 Clan vs 12 IS makes it very difficult for the IS teams, but still possible.

Second, clans fight in groups called Stars, not lances. A star is 5 mechs. A lance is 4 mechs.

2 Clan stars (10) vs 3 IS lances (12) sounds like more of a "fair" fight, and it keeps the game true to canon.

If I am wrong here please let me know, but this is something that bugs me. A lot.

EDIT: For those reading only this and not the rest of the topic.

I mean unnerfed, even buffed, clans vs IS mechs.

I am not saying clans are OP, just superior like they should be.

um there not superior thax to PGI/ComStars nurfing an all the quriks buff the IS got. PGI/ComStar wanted an = playing field an thats why we have what we have now.

[Yokaiko]

SickerthanSars, on 28 December 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

if by overall reactions of the IS community you mean the handful of same posters, who are pugs that keep crying clans are OP. Not a single organized IS comp team has voiced this sentiment, theyve complained about the lack of balance to compensate for numbers IE planet zerg, which unlike the "clans areOP" argument actually has some merit and is a legitimate gripe.

The overall reactions of the community should be taken with a grain of salt.

These are the same people that can't move through a gate on attack mode. So they just stand there and get farmed

I've had a number of victories pugging with IS, the clan mechs aren't unstoppable, less so if you get in their face with a couple exceptions.

,......but standing around and letting the defense pick the range? Doesn't friggin matter if its IS or Clan on the other side your are going to get mangled.

[Nightshade24]

Anyone think my idea is a good idea?

Clans = 10
IS = 12

Changes = Clans can drop in 5 mechs. (make it so you are not forced to take all 4 or 5 mechs to join the game)
Clans come in not in Leopard Dropships but in Broadsword dropships (clan version, 100 tons heavier ,drops 5 mechs, uses clan tech)

general change = Reduce heat off clan Energy weapons and change the clan linked energy weapon.
(Small pulse, small las, medium pulse, medium las, all linked?!?! And since when does our medium laser have nearly equal heat to IS large lasers o-o )


Anyone think these changes would be good?

(if you are wondering, clans and IS have nearly the same max tonnage for the game. clans have slightly more but that compensates the fact it's less on the field at any given time)

[DONTOR]

I DONTOR Jorgensson of Clan Ghost Bear approve of the 2 star VS 3 lance gamepley. Of course we will need our actual 15 damage CERPPCs, and solid slug LBX weaponry. Deal?

[Yokaiko]

Nightshade24, on 29 December 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

general change = Reduce heat off clan Energy weapons and change the clan linked energy weapon.
(Small pulse, small las, medium pulse, medium las, all linked?!?! And since when does our medium laser have nearly equal heat to IS large lasers o-o )

C er-mlas/mplas 6 heat
IS llas 7 heat

Yeah its pretty close.

[DEMAX51]

Ian G, on 27 December 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

Funny, only clanners say there is no balance problem...

Well, that's not true. I'm in an IS unit and I think Clan/IS 'Mechs are relatively well balanced right now, with a few overperforming 'Mechs on both sides.

Edited by DEMAX51, 29 December 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

DustyHardtail, on 26 December 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

First off, the clan mechs are supierior, like they should be. So 12 Clan vs 12 IS makes it very difficult for the IS teams, but still possible.

Second, clans fight in groups called Stars, not lances. A star is 5 mechs. A lance is 4 mechs.

2 Clan stars (10) vs 3 IS lances (12) sounds like more of a "fair" fight, and it keeps the game true to canon.

If I am wrong here please let me know, but this is something that bugs me. A lot.

EDIT: For those reading only this and not the rest of the topic.

I mean unnerfed, even buffed, clans vs IS mechs.

I am not saying clans are OP, just superior like they should be.

Except that Clan mechs aren't superior.

However your right, if they were superior, then asymmetric force size would be the way to go.