38 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

I miss the Nova from Mechwarrior 2 - it had practically zero torso twist and it felt awesome because it was unique.

Also, MWO's Nova is wayyyy too big, because they gave it a silly torso... it's not supposed to have a torso. If they simply scaled it down a bit it would play a little better.

Pew!

[michaelius]

Mcgral18, on 01 January 2015 - 01:15 AM, said:

Recently, I've been having fun by using ALL the E hardpoints; 13 ERSLs and 13 SPLs. Maximum Wub is hot...but pretty deadly. ERSL builds are what I've found to be most effective, followed by the versatility of the 6 ERML+4MG build due to having twice the effective range, but only slightly less damage for the same heat.

I like 12 ER SL + 2 MG + 2 AMS built with Nova-S center torso. If someone ignores you then you can melt even 100tonner in no time.

[Tristan Winter]

This thread really makes me want to drop with 3 Novas in my dropdeck and just smash bad guys.

With machineguns too!

[Mcgral18]

Water Bear, on 01 January 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

Name a mech in the 40-50 ton range that's as good as any 55 tonner. The Nova should be no more durable than a Trebuchet. Speaking as a guy who owns a Treb with arm mounted weapons...I would not recommend taking a 50 toner with weapons in the arms and expecting it to be even decent.

Mainly because both 50 tonners are horrendously oversized. Armour quirks are a way to offset that, since PGI isn't about to go about changing every art asset on the mech.

[Ultimax]

Just to clarify you aren't saying ghost heat itself is the problem, rather the fact that PGI decided to link Small group with Medium group lasers, correct?



I honestly think this is the least of the Nova's worries. 6x CERMLAS is a 42 point laser alpha, that's pretty much right around with what most clan mechs are running (40-55 for big laser vomits) and you don't really need more than this.


The real issues with the Nova are what you already pointed out, the awful geometry/physical model:

• huge size for 50T
  
• with low 50T armor
  
• relatively poor agility for it's tonnage
  
• low slung arms bearing almost all of the weapons

[Deathlike]

Water Bear, on 01 January 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

What exactly is the OP trying to say? It sounds like: 1) Insufficient twist quirks 2) Ghost heat is a thing that makes Nova builds bad.

Name a mech in the 40-50 ton range that's as good as any 55 tonner. The Nova should be no more durable than a Trebuchet. Speaking as a guy who owns a Treb with arm mounted weapons...I would not recommend taking a 50 toner with weapons in the arms and expecting it to be even decent.

Here's 3 things the Trebuchet can do over the Nova...

1) Increase engine size to go faster - the Nova cannot. This speed allows for getting in and out of trouble better, and indirectly will allow you to take less damage when people aren't as a capable to hitting a faster mech.

2) Build a torso dependent mech despite the large arms (using the large arms as a shield) - Hello Trebuchet-7K. Unfortunately, most Trebuchet variants are arm dependent and the 7K is the exception.

3) It can actually range with LRMs... Nova currently cannot do that. LRMs allow players to "keep away" to a certain extent w/o trying to show their poor scaling as much... which is what I ended up doing with the Kintaro. I didn't do that with the Trebuchet at the time because I wasn't fond of LRMs at the time (so, it was head against wall to some extent), but also LRMs were actually worse at the time when I grinded the Trebuchets.


If it sounds that simple, it probably is. The torso weapons on the Nova barely give the Nova the choices it needs to become useful.

William Petersen, on 01 January 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

If you think ghost heat is a problem, you need to figure out how to group weapons. All ghost heat does is stop you from being killed by one mech in a single massive alpha strike. With even the barest of pause, you can unload one arm and then the other on a Nova Prime and not suffer ghost heat. You will, however, shut down and may cause yourself damage on all but the coldest of maps, though. But that's not ghost heat, that's just heat. Nova Prime has always been a hot son of Satan.

The nice thing about it was in CBT if you got really good odds on your hit rolls, you could unload an alpha and only be shut down a turn or two and take no damage 'cause heat doesn't cause damage in CBT but for ammo explosions, and Nova Prime has no ammo.

I only referenced people alphaing the 12 CERMEDs only because newbies don't know any better. That's not an argument to remove Ghost Heat, rather I'd wish the Trial mech was the Nova-S so that they aren't impacted by Ghost heat by accident and kill themselves in the first minute of the game.

BeltinTheBeast, on 01 January 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

stopped reading at wispy and realized this was a waste of time.

That's a great excuse for one that didn't want to read in the first place. If I didn't mention him, I don't think you'd still read it.

Ultimatum X, on 01 January 2015 - 01:22 PM, said:

Just to clarify you aren't saying ghost heat itself is the problem, rather the fact that PGI decided to link Small group with Medium group lasers, correct?

To some degree yes.

Quote

I honestly think this is the least of the Nova's worries. 6x CERMLAS is a 42 point laser alpha, that's pretty much right around with what most clan mechs are running (40-55 for big laser vomits) and you don't really need more than this.

I thought that build was a little "bland", and 5 CMPL does better (less DHS, but less facetime) which is a sane tradeoff IMO.

The Nova ultimately needs something buff... either offense (reworking ghost heat) or defense (improving durability). Doing both might accidentally make it truly good...

Quote

The real issues with the Nova are what you already pointed out, the awful geometry/physical model:

• huge size for 50T
  
• with low 50T armor
  
• relatively poor agility for it's tonnage
  
• low slung arms bearing almost all of the weapons

It only gets worse with arty.. leg removal with the bonus high chance of arm removal. It's hard to say nice things really.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 January 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 01 January 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

I thought that build was a little "bland", and 5 CMPL does better (less DHS, but less facetime) which is a sane tradeoff IMO.

The Nova ultimately needs something buff... either offense (reworking ghost heat) or defense (improving durability). Doing both might accidentally make it truly good...

All laser vomit builds are bland. It is what it is.

I'm OK with better -heat for CERMLAS or CERSLAS ala IS quirks.


However I don't want to see it be able to alpha 12 energy weapons at once and negate ghost heat.


Just as with the Dragon 1N and those ridiculous AC5 quirks, giving a mech something ludicrous on offense for its tonnage doesn't help the game as a whole and ultimately doesn't actually solve the heart of the issues with the mech (geometry - which is also a problem the Dragon has).


If the problem is survivability due to geometry, then address that directly with quirks that improve survivability, that's what they should have done with the Dragon rather than take one variant and turn it's heatless DPS up to "ludicrous speed".



The Nova doesn't need 80 point ghost heat-less alphas, nor does game balance as a whole improve.

It needs the geometry issues addressed as best they can (with the "not any time soon" ideal fix being physically scaled down).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 01 January 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 01 January 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

All laser vomit builds are bland. It is what it is.

I'm OK with better -heat for CERMLAS or CERSLAS ala IS quirks.


However I don't want to see it be able to alpha 12 energy weapons at once and negate ghost heat.


Just as with the Dragon 1N and those ridiculous AC5 quirks, giving a mech something ludicrous on offense for its tonnage doesn't help the game as a whole and ultimately doesn't actually solve the heart of the issues with the mech (geometry - which is also a problem the Dragon has).


If the problem is survivability due to geometry, then address that directly with quirks that improve survivability, that's what they should have done with the Dragon rather than take one variant and turn it's heatless DPS up to "ludicrous speed".



The Nova doesn't need 80 point ghost heat-less alphas, nor does game balance as a whole improve.

It needs the geometry issues addressed as best they can (with the "not any time soon" ideal fix being physically scaled down).

So, armour and heat quirks that don't quite eliminate the 120% and 150% heat of Clan lasers?

I could work with that.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 01 January 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

So, armour and heat quirks that don't quite eliminate the 120% and 150% heat of Clan lasers?

I could work with that.

I could see you going to town if Small Lasers or Small Pulse Lasers got an additional 5 to 10% heat reduction.

You know how many times I've had the "oh my, lol, it's a Nova" when I meet them. If the Nova was quirked properly, it would probably sound more like "oh poop, it's a Nova".

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 01 January 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

So, armour and heat quirks that don't quite eliminate the 120% and 150% heat of Clan lasers?

I could work with that.

I can work with 5x or 6 x CERMLAS now or 12x CERSLAS.


The reason I don't is because the mech is clumsy to play, easy to pick apart, and only has corner peeking as it's only way to try and mitigate it's awful geometry.


So yes, a bit better heat reduction quirks compared to what it got, and some survivability quirks like +armor/+structure or even +turn/torso twist.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 01 January 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

I could see you going to town if Small Lasers or Small Pulse Lasers got an additional 5 to 10% heat reduction.

You know how many times I've had the "oh my, lol, it's a Nova" when I meet them. If the Nova was quirked properly, it would probably sound more like "oh poop, it's a Nova".

True story: When I see players I know to be better than me, I'm concerned, and watch for them carefully. When I see they are in a Nova, I laugh and relax, having dodged a bullet.

[Andi Nagasia]

i love my nova 6ER-ML + 6ER-SM rest are DHS, it plays good,
the problem is if im ever in a brawl i have to beat them Before over-heating,

[William Petersen]

Water Bear, on 01 January 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

That's a little misleading. You couldn't damage the mech, but you could damage the pilot. Once the pilot dies, the mech is out of the game. IIRC pilot damage also made piloting skill rolls more difficult, so if you had a pilot who'd taken a lot of hits, his mech tended to fall over (literally) after being shot by an AC/20.

Edit: Oh, also the Nova Prime has machine gun ammo.

I find it humorous you tell me I'm misleading and then go on to spout a bunch of nonsense.

The only time a pilot takes damage from heat is if the life support is critically hit (or from failing an ammunition check).

Pilot damage does not affect PSRs (Piloting Skill Rolls). Heat does not (directly) affect PSRs. Being shut down (from heat, for example) does. Being hit with >20 damage does. But neither of those are a direct result of heat.

Also, I'm looking at TRO 3050, and no, the Nova Prime does not, in fact, have M.Gun ammo.

Edited by William Petersen, 02 January 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[Lily from animove]

heat is fine, heat always was fine, just 12E (or even 13) is way to much to ever alpha. Trigger discipline is what works fine if you have it. What sucks is all the other issues of the nova, too big, too low hardpoints squishy medium that you can not miss and threfore obliterate in 2 alphas.

give the nova dragon like HP buffs and summoner like acceleration/break buffs and it is fixed about its most problematic issues. packing 12 lasers on any mech will always eb an issue, and should.

btw here an album of all my post quirk nova games,

http://imgur.com/a/SV4yK

I don't realy like the 12 SERL variant, its too situational.
The issue still sticks with being a lot more useable for your team when bringing another mech.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 January 2015 - 05:46 AM.

[Lily from animove]

I think the Nova S arms should get some quirks for arm movement back and angles. To make a difference to the prime arms.
The only differenc enow is that if you use 3 lasers the 3rd is in the higher mounted location, but thats not much at all to use it.


Anyways I gonna leave my long story of the nova in a shorter version here.

The first usage of the Nova was on the testserver, I used i there with the 12 CERML 4 MG version. It was great it wrecked a lot stuff espeically lights.

On release back on Live servers, it was not so. CERML had and still have today, big issues with hitreg especially vs lights and fast mediums. This makes them heatbeasts without many use being a big waste of heat instead of efficency versus those targets. yet I sticked with them, because 12 yellow lasers just looks epic. Ghost heat ever was an issue because of 12 lasers in a single mech. Many pilots without trigger discipline or those lazy "one button alpha pilots" just were putting 6 CERSL in one of the arms, or 3 in each and prevented ghostheat for the easy one button mode mech. Well that then fixed with making both lasers the same ghost heta category. That was an ok fix in my opinion. Also the heat increase on the medium lasers, while bein painful for the Nova, was manageable. You could still fire both arms of 12 CERML in 2 seperate volleys. But this didn't worked anymore with 4 MG's due to the lack of heattreshold. Sad, because I liked the amazing HUD with 16 weapons listed . but that was gone and so I only ran 12 CERML

I also ran a 12 CERSL 2 MG build for a while, its fun but too situational

The symmetry of the mech makes it a nice thing to play no matter if you go around the left or right corner. And on the mining map, its great to jump on the roofs giving you a greta position.

But nowdays I run my Nova quite different, I use 6 SPL's in my right arm and 6 CERML in the left, ecause the bad hitreg made too many lights literally invinceable, and so I had to sacrifice some of my beloved shiny yellow lasers for red wubwub. With the pulselaser buff we had, they are good weapons now, totally worth the tonnage in my opinion. Hitreg is great vs lights, or at least you do damage now vs them, which the CERML did not (at leats not form an EU connection). Also in a cqc situation, you have some lasers now that are a LOT more heat efficent. (2 vs 1,16 dmg/heat). Not sure if I should drop another DHS for a BAP.

Unless the Nova gets some HP quirks like the drgaon, I don't think it will ever become a great mech, It's doomed with the geometry it has. Heat is not an issue at all, any mech would run senseless hot with 12 lasers, so dropping some lasers is what heatmanagement requires to have a reliable mech. I would say 6 or 8 laser is a good amount to stick with, the rest should go into additional DHS. Then you get a working and relaible build with good heatmanagement.
But then you are better off with piloting another mech, because obviously you don't really need a Nova for this. So the true Nova feling only comes with a senseless amount of lasers and an epically heatissue.
I would say seismic sensor is the most important module for the Nova. You are too slow, big and squishy to for any "surprise around the corner" events, because in that case you are either dead or heavily crippled. So seismic for checking whats around a corner before you go is very important.

playing Nova feels like using a fat giant Ninja trying to be unseen, because you are that squishy and you can hardly be missed. And so staying alive is a the primary goal before doing damage. Otherwise you will die so quickly you can't do any damage. And thats not going to help your team or your scoring.

[Deathlike]

Increasing arm speed is kinda irrelevant for this mech. The only mech that I've noticed ridiculously fast arms was the Quickdraw-4G from its initial debut (well, that and the Commando, but the Commando didn't get an obviously noticeable quirk). I mean, you could buff it, but I doubt that'll cure it's primary problem... being target practice.

At least the Quickdraw's arms could be legitimately used as a shield....

Edited by Deathlike, 06 January 2015 - 11:29 AM.

[Brody319]

I think ghost heat needs to be incremental based on the heat something generates.

So for example, if you fire 2 PPCs, you generate 20 heat. This would generate no ghost heat.
However if you fired 3 PPCs you generate 30 heat, which would generate 5 ghost heat.

Solid heat values not based on the weapons themselves. This would let them balance builds much better, such as boats LRM, Ballistic, or Energy. Also the numbers I mentioned don't have to be set in stone, and would allow PGI to quirk mechs differently such as for the Awesome 8Q instead of less heat per PPC, it would just be changed to "Firing 3 PPCs generates no ghost heat".

[Lily from animove]

Brody319, on 06 January 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

I think ghost heat needs to be incremental based on the heat something generates.

So for example, if you fire 2 PPCs, you generate 20 heat. This would generate no ghost heat.
However if you fired 3 PPCs you generate 30 heat, which would generate 5 ghost heat.

Solid heat values not based on the weapons themselves. This would let them balance builds much better, such as boats LRM, Ballistic, or Energy. Also the numbers I mentioned don't have to be set in stone, and would allow PGI to quirk mechs differently such as for the Awesome 8Q instead of less heat per PPC, it would just be changed to "Firing 3 PPCs generates no ghost heat".

ghost ehat or not, it does not care 12 laser make your heat scale go amxed, so ghost heta is never any option you want to run into. no matter if 20 or the 350 we currently have.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

I agree the nova needs something. It's the goldie I bought, but I shoulda got the crow (I'm even in a group called The Crows WTF me?!). The Nova is soooo pretty, but the gold paint shines less and less as the dust layers build up

IMO they should let all clammechs change around all upgrades. Ya ya, lore, whatever. It would help all the suck clan mechs and wouldn't buff the good ones as they already have the upgrades (I guess you could downgrade, but that's generally dumb). I think that would settle the clans out quite a bit then they can come in with some quirks for the still underperformers or some bulk nerf that settles all the clans back down.

I'm arguably bad, so that could just be my issue with the nova, but holy hell is it easy to put up decent damage in a stormcrow.