287 replies to this topic

[RustyBolts]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

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Has any Clan unit that Wolf made agreements with attacked you? If that is not the case and if the intentions of Merc units was to "incite fighting between allies", then they failed.

But the most likely scenario is that Mercs are not trying to turn ally unit against ally unit.

No instead the Mercs are hitting allies of the faction. But this appears to be a lost argument since too many units refuse to work together within their faction for the overall good of the Clans. So I am done arguing this point.

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

Suffering from Merc units leaving them? Has Clan Wolf asked themselves why they don't stay? Have they asked themselves why Clan Ghost Bear keeps attracting Mercs?

Steiner just lost some big Merc units due to rotation and yet, they seem not to be suffering. Has the Clan Wolf leadership asked themselves why that is and what can be learned from it?

I dont care about this argument for two reasons. One, I was not privy to any discussions that may have taken place between units so I cannot speak to it. Second, You keep making this a "Wolf" issue where I see it as a CW(Community Warfare) issue. I am sorry that apparently some Wolf unit pissed in your cheerios and upset you, but as I have stated, I see this as a CW(Community Warfare) issue and not a CW(Clan Wolf) issue.

[Dracol]

RustyBolts, on 11 January 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

No instead the Mercs are hitting allies of the faction.

This here is the main point of contention. Is Community Warfare just Clans V IS? Or is Community Warfare more than that?

If one is in the camp of Community Warfare is just Clans V IS, then yes Mercs attacking from Clan space into another Clan space is trolling.

But that is not how the game is setup. Nor how the major players within the community are playing it.

Please do continue to advocate your position that Clans V IS is all that Community Warfare is about. Concerning the public response to the initial plan for longer contract duration was not all that positive, I am guessing you have a tough road ahead of you.

Edited by Dracol, 11 January 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[Aresye]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

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The fact Mercs have more influence within CW than what Clan Wolf could muster really grinds the gears of RP hardcore Wolf players. Since they can not have their way, they have decided not to try anymore.

tl:dr: Clan Wolf attracted the RP heavy crowd. When CW didn't go their way and it became apparent Mercs have more influence than they did in lore, Wolf first tried to get the game changed to what they wanted and failing that, they said "CW sucks, we're not playing"

Your post has much truth to it, but you're lumping each and every Wolf unit and player into the same group of hardcore RP players, when most of the displeasure has really only been voiced by a handful of repeated players on the forums. If we were to have done the same thing, we wouldn't still be holding CGB in high regard.

So let's change the latter to say, "When CW didn't go their way and it became apparent Mercs have more influence than they did in lore, a few players from Wolf first tried to get the game changed to what they wanted."

The, "CW sucks, we're not playing," part is definitely more than a few players, and encompasses a larger chunk of Wolf players (both solo and unit) that don't understand nor care for the politics that happen on the forums and elsewhere. They just want good games like any other player, and just like how in the regular queues when you end up getting stomped for long enough, eventually they're just going to take a break.

As for myself, I've said it before on other threads and I'll reiterate it. I think there's a problem when the overall balance of power is largely determined simply based on where merc units go, and feel the contract time is too short, but I only view these as problems as a symptom of having too small a player base in MWO. I feel each unit shares some portion of responsibility to the game itself, keeping mind of where imbalances in power may be, which factions need help, and making decisions to help keep things at least equal in order to foster an environment to enable higher player participation.

[Alexander Steel]

Personally I think the goals of....

1. Making the factions more stable in size.
2. Making it harder for people to change factions.
3. Making more people play CW.

These are separate goals and the 2nd one very much conflicts with 1 and 3. Example: Liao was really hurting for people at the start of the game. PGI upped their rewards and people flocked to them to the point where they not only stopped Davion cold, but now are fighting back and retaking worlds. If it 2 were a thing, this would have taken much longer or not have been possible at all.

Add on: All that said the idea that CW is only Clans vs IS and that PGI should do something to enforce that or help make it true... I can't disagree more. IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan are in my opinion the two most balanced fighting types.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[Ken Fury]

I'd like to mention the fact that Clan vs Clan in CW matches is only available in CW. And thus matches are different from IS vs Clan / Clan vs IS matches. Why would anyone not experience the rather balanced fight between equal technologies?

You also do realize that this is a Beta and it should have Clan vs Clan matches.

[Dracol]

Aresye, on 11 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

-snip a well worded response for size considerations-

You sir have gained my respect.

You have beautifully crafted your case.

Although I respectfully disagree with the point concerning contract length. Imbalances in power are what Merc units can be utilized to stabilize, but with longer duration I feel it would hamper their efforts not help them.

[BSK]

Right now [CI] Comstar Irregulars intentionally attack Wolf territory, planet Ferris.

[Gyrok]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Just because I happen to fly the same banner as you doesn't give you any right to make deals in my name. Your deals are limited to the people who agree to follow them. Just like if I go "Hey guys I made a deal with Steiner last night that said that we won't attack them. So you have to follow it." You'd probably think... "Who the heck gave this clown the right to speak for me..."

Negative.

The reality is, when such decisions are made, it involves representatives from ALL the major wolf groups. Meaning that ultimately you will obey it if you are actually part of the Clan, and not a Merc.

Ergo, you are simply uninformed, because ( A ) The situation you cite has already happened, and steps were taken to prevent such occurrences happening again, though we honored it in spite of the circumstances. This with much chagrin, however, we held the accord, and, ( B ) It is to your advantage to work cohesively as a group and toward the goals of the major groups as a whole.

For my thoughts on the matter, if you are not willing to work together, go sow discord somewhere else....Wolf can field plenty of pilots who will put the overall invasion goals ahead of their personal agendas. We do not need people that will not be productive members of the clan.

If you feel you cannot abide by accords made by the majority of the clan, then perhaps you should move on.

[Alexander Steel]

I think I'll stay. The thing is you have no ability to stop me. The authority you are claiming is not yours, PGI didn't give it to you.

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

You sir have gained my respect.

You have beautifully crafted your case.

Although I respectfully disagree with the point concerning contract length. Imbalances in power are what Merc units can be utilized to stabilize, but with longer duration I feel it would hamper their efforts not help them.

The issue lies in the fact that currently, you are not balancing, you are creating imbalances.

As it stands, when CW started out, things were reltatively well spread, with the exception of the concentration at GB. Aside from that, things were relatively good.

Now, with people constantly hopping around, imbalances flow with the movement of the mercs, and I personally would like to see a scenario like the following:

1) Minimum contract is 21 days for IS factions.

2) Once you leave a faction contract, you may not return for a time less than 27 weeks.

3) You may continually renew a contract with the same faction indefinitely.

4) Minimum contract length for clans will be permanent

5) Clan contracts will be reset every time the map is reset

6) If you break a contract early, you may not enter a new contract until your current contract would expire, plus wait a 7 day cooling off period.

7) Breech of contract would cost the unit coffers 10 million cbills per player put into breech of contract in the unit.

This would create stability.

[Gyrok]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

I think I'll stay. The thing is you have no ability to stop me. The authority you are claiming is not yours, PGI didn't give it to you.

Then do not be upset when people do not condone your actions, and do not help you if you act against the stated goals of the clan as a whole.

Which unit are you a part of...?

Ahh, Team Banzai Merc Corp, I might have expected such from a Merc. If you are not taking direction from Clan Wolf command, you are a disavowed unit, and will not be recognized as Wolves.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 January 2015 - 05:17 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

That wouldn't create stability, it would cause people who end up with a faction that is losing and they don't like playing for to quit the game. That's a solution in search of a problem that flies directly in the face of the money model that PGI is following.

Things were good at the start because the event that was running caused way more people to play CW then will play with the current level of reward structure. CW needs more people, and getting them in more important than any other issue. Once the minimum number of people is reached then faction sizes and stability can be addressed, but trying to fix them before you even have enough people to make CW viable long term is putting the cart before the horse.

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Ahh, Team Banzai Merc Corp,

Who are they? Team Banzai from the Table Top is my favorite Merc unit, but I'm not part of any Team Banzai in the game.

Heh, that's pretty funny that you made that mistake after looking at my character profile. LOL.

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If you are not taking direction from Clan Wolf command, you are a disavowed unit, and will not be recognized as Wolves.

Which effects my game play all of 0. Time to drop on the Falcons.....

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[Gyrok]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

That wouldn't create stability, it would cause people who end up with a faction that is losing and they don't like playing for to quit the game. That's a solution in search of a problem that flies directly in the face of the money model that PGI is following.

Things were good at the start because the event that was running caused way more people to play CW then will play with the current level of reward structure. CW needs more people, and getting them in more important than any other issue. Once the minimum number of people is reached then faction sizes and stability can be addressed, but trying to fix them before you even have enough people to make CW viable long term is putting the cart before the horse.

It would make you think twice about choosing a faction, and contracts would all be reset when the map resets. So you could change often enough.

Consider that some units will never change factions regardless...if you like to wander, this would make you consider it far more heavily, and whimsical temporary imbalances would not occur.

Also, if you recall, most units, even merc corps, were FAR more loyal to their houses than most of the merc corps in MWO. THAT was part of the stability created by mercs. If you were to jump ship as often as the weekend came, then how would it create any stability at all?

EDIT: Solution 2 is to not allow merc units into clans.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 January 2015 - 05:23 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

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It would make you think twice about choosing a faction, and contracts would all be reset when the map resets. So you could change often enough.

PGI hasn't even said they will do map resets yet.

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Solution 2 is to not allow merc units into clans.

Oddly enough the clan that is doing poorly because of their stance on mercs, would really like some way to stop other clans that use mercs effectively to not be able to have mercs. I'm... shocked.

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Also, if you recall, most units, even merc corps, were FAR more loyal to their houses than most of the merc corps in MWO. THAT was part of the stability created by mercs. If you were to jump ship as often as the weekend came, then how would it create any stability at all?

The time table has been vastly sped up. Keep in mind in about 1 month of combat we have watched about as many planets change hand as changed hands during the entire Clan Invasion. In fact most merc units were not super loyal to the houses and tended to flip as soon as their contract was over. Those contracts were for anywhere from 1 raid to 2 years or so ((from the Battletech Table Top books)) with 5 years being on the FAR outside.

However if we want to go with real battletech timelines.... enjoy 7 day recharge times on jumps, taking as many as 7 days to go from the Jump Ship to the planet surface. Fights over planets would take weeks instead of 24 hours and units would be stuck on the planet or in the dropship going to and from objectives for weeks on end without any ability to fight. Oh yeah and going from one front to the other side of your space would take weeks, months, or even a year depending on how large your faction is.

Yeah.. using battletech timelines would be a bad thing in this game. Oddly enough a unit taking a 1 week contract in this game could easily fight on as many different worlds and effect the front way more than a unit in the Lore would during the entre length of a 2-3 year contract.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 05:31 PM.

[Gyrok]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

PGI hasn't even said they will do map resets yet.



Oddly enough the clan that is doing poorly because of their stance on mercs, would really like some way to stop other clans that use mercs effectively to not be able to have mercs. I'm... shocked.



The time table has been vastly sped up. Keep in mind in about 1 month of combat we have watched about as many planets change hand as changed hands during the entire Clan Invasion. In fact most merc units were not super loyal to the houses and tended to flip as soon as their contract was over. Those contracts were for anywhere from 1 raid to 2 years or so ((from the Battletech Table Top books)) with 5 years being on the FAR outside.

However if we want to go with real battletech timelines.... enjoy 7 day recharge times on jumps, taking as many as 7 days to go from the Jump Ship to the planet surface. Fights over planets would take weeks instead of 24 hours and units would be stuck on the planet or in the dropship going to and from objectives for weeks on end without any ability to fight. Oh yeah and going from one front to the other side of your space would take weeks, months, or even a year depending on how large your faction is.

Yeah.. using battletech timelines would be a bad thing in this game. Oddly enough a unit taking a 1 week contract in this game could easily fight on as many different worlds and effect the front way more than a unit in the Lore would during the entre length of a 2-3 year contract.

I would LOVE to see jump times, logistics, and all the depth that would bring.

Also, Wolf has no issues with mercenaries coming to play for our side. As long as you follow our lead.

If you want to come over and play border skirmish with other clans, I believe all clans can agree at this point you are just being unproductive.

EDIT: Even CGB, who has the most mercs right now, denounces the actions of mercs that go against their agenda.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 January 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[Noesis]

Gyrok, on 11 January 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

EDIT: Solution 2 is to not allow merc units into clans.

That would be a "resolution" from your point of view. This since other members of this community do not consider this a problem.

And from a point of view of the Dark Caste who can be nomadic or insurgent, how are you going to include ourselves into the mix?

[Alexander Steel]

Noesis, on 11 January 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

That would be a "resolution" from your point of view. This since other members of this community do not consider this a problem.

And from a point of view of the Dark Caste who can be nomadic or insurgent, how are you going to include ourselves into the mix?

From a lore point of view I don't think the Dark Caste was involved in any part of the invasion. However clearly this invasion isn't lore because Clans Hire Mercs, no Fed Com, no St Ives, and other things.

No Comstar faction yet... but it might be interesting to see them show up. Make them not able to attack any IS power, but able to attack and defend Clan vs IS world.

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I would LOVE to see jump times, logistics, and all the depth that would bring.

That sort of depths would kill the game considering how small of a population base it has. Nobody is going to be fine with a 2-3 week turn around for attacking 1 world. I'm not sure if you wanting to play a game that can function in the real world or just a B-Tech Simulator that shuts it's doors a few months later.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Noesis]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

From a lore point of view I don't think the Dark Caste was involved in any part of the invasion. However clearly this invasion isn't lore because Clans Hire Mercs, no Fed Com, no St Ives, and other things.

From a lore persepctive the Dark Caste where more associated in the Clan community (Keresnky Cluster and Pentagon worlds) and the periphery. But there where also members of the Dark Caste embedded into the Clans themselves including the Crusaders. Admittedley in smaller numbers that would not have perhaps the same destabalising effect as the current Merc groups. And would definatley keep a lower profile as a result.

Edited by Noesis, 11 January 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Gyrok]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

From a lore point of view I don't think the Dark Caste was involved in any part of the invasion. However clearly this invasion isn't lore because Clans Hire Mercs, no Fed Com, no St Ives, and other things.

No Comstar faction yet... but it might be interesting to see them show up. Make them not able to attack any IS power, but able to attack and defend Clan vs IS world.



That sort of depths would kill the game considering how small of a population base it has. Nobody is going to be fine with a 2-3 week turn around for attacking 1 world. I'm not sure if you wanting to play a game that can function in the real world or just a B-Tech Simulator that shuts it's doors a few months later.

Logistics > mercs not whining.

[Alexander Steel]

Logistics hit everybody in Battletech. House and Clan Units didn't have access to faster travel than what mercs had access to.