287 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Soule, on 06 January 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

I had to read the entire thread before I realized what it was that was being discussed.
I have to be honest I had no idea that some of the players have been trying to control the game and are upset that others aren't following the rules that they set up.
To be honest some of my friends/family started the LTC merc company just because we wanted to play together and loved the idea of being a small non house loyal merc company. Now we are adults or in the case of my nephews collage age kids so we have work, school, and family to keep us busy and do not have the time to read pages of forum posts, in fact we have not been on since well before Christmas. We also don't like that "signing a contract" makes us part of a faction, we wanted to be mercs only.
So with that in mind if you want to have this kind of control over the game you need to petition the devs for it, or the devs need to exorcise it them selves (probably the best way) and offer real contracts to the mercs. For example attack this specific planet and you get your money/points if you succeed. or the second way would be restrict the planets we can attack in game we are mercs right? if we sign a contract we are supposed to fight who we are contracted to fight.
I can't say anyone else feels this way but I can tell you that I and my merc group do not care what treaties you sign, neither do we care if you limit us to attacking one group as long as we can play AND choose our own contracts, just because we signed up with davion for now does not mean we always want to work for them.

Well, this is how mercs work: they are under the control of their employer for the duration of the contract, and the employer, and the employer only will decide how to employ them: if the Duke that hired you says you must stay 6 months garrisoning an useless planet, sitting around playing cards in the barracks waiting for a phantomatic pirate band to show up , then you have to do it if you want the money.

On the other hand, specific contracts would be really cool: attack this planet, defend this planet, even "hunt down this unit". However, who should give these kinds of contract? We really need a player leadership.

[Tarfu503]

The elephant in the room is one that has been dealt with before with matchmaker. Remember all the complaints with 12-0 rolls? PGI corrected it and I have seen few if any complaints in the regular drops. Community Warfare has brought this back. We now have comp teams going up sometimes against (mostly) casual players. I would say in my unit there is a hard core of 1/3 of the players (I do not put myself in that group), another group of skill somewhere below that and then the players who are casual. I would put the drop commanders I have dropped with in the top third but a lot of their energy is spent on calling out targets (which players sometimes do and sometimes do not target) directing the team. It does not make a pleasant experience when there is this lopsided match-up. Add in the putdowns in chat and players quit playing for a while.

I was trying to draw up an analogy with chess tournament but there the experience is 180 degrees from MWO. after a game with a GM he will offer his opinion about certain openings: which ones are good which are bad, and the ones to avoid entirely. Weaker players look forward to this learning experience.

There is really no way to duplicate this in MWO unless they put in an instant replay and players could see where they went wrong or how to improve. There are the videos on Youtube which can help with certain builds. but nothing beats a drop commander on TS who is telling you where to position yourself and what action to take. And I cannot see a solution to this with the present setup. Whatever they do with the Merc contracts it will have no bearing on the lopsided match ups.

[Vassago Rain]

I love you clanner dudes. You're so funny, thinking you can control the rest of the playerbase.

[Cerlin]

Even as an IS player who is fighting against you all, I do feel the current merc rules are much too lax. It should have a locked in "side" selection where you are IS or Clan for say, a month (2 weeks) whatever. As long as its longer than currently. I would also like to see planet ownership have a benefit but you lose those perks when you switch to the opposite side (lose your planets + benefits.)

[CyclonerM]

Cerlin, on 08 January 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

Even as an IS player who is fighting against you all, I do feel the current merc rules are much too lax. It should have a locked in "side" selection where you are IS or Clan for say, a month (2 weeks) whatever. As long as its longer than currently. I would also like to see planet ownership have a benefit but you lose those perks when you switch to the opposite side (lose your planets + benefits.)

I am glad to see someone in the Sphere agrees
Even if the problem is more keeping the rebellious trolls under control while they are fighting for a faction.. From what i know, the true Clan warriors have never fought among themselves, it was just mercs creating trouble, more bandits/dark caste than warriors.

[Gyrok]

Vassago Rain, on 08 January 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

I love you clanner dudes. You're so funny, thinking you can control the rest of the playerbase.

Did you know Naglinator loves pugs? Ask him, he will tell you...

Edited by Gyrok, 08 January 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[Baron Cunedda Kell]

Correct me if I am wrong...but CLANS don't use Mercs... if PGI or whoever would know, its clans and clans only...the rest of the universe be damned... So I hope, that something is done, to stop the mercs from being Ghost bear one day, then Jade Falcon another...just to attack the clans and then bam! They are IS again...

And don't even get my started on the unbalance of the perks... . Clan Mech are almost the IS now and the IS mech are now the Clan mechs with all those perks...

[Dracol]

Baron Cunedda Kell, on 09 January 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong...but CLANS don't use Mercs... if PGI or whoever would know, its clans and clans only...the rest of the universe be damned... So I hope, that something is done, to stop the mercs from being Ghost bear one day, then Jade Falcon another...just to attack the clans and then bam! They are IS again...

Let me pose a counter point. MWO is not a reenactment of the Clan invasion originally told in the 80's & 90's by the FASA corp. MWO and its players are doing their own telling of the Clan invasion. Why is it so wrong for Merc units be playing both sides of the conflict? Does it not make it a more dynamic telling of the tale with allegiances shifting and Merc units doing the deeds other, more loyally aligned units dare not do?

To add to that, the forces of many factions and clans have been decimated by this continuous conflict. Does not their ability to entice freelance units to bolster their ranks benefit all?.... well at least those factions whose diplomacy skills are up to the task.

Not to mention, the website we are currently all on at the moment is mwoMERCS.com.

There is also precedent for a Merc unit to be aligned with multiple factions. Wolf's Dragoons was working with Clan Wolf and all of the great houses at one point or another. During the invasion their allegiance was less fluid, but that does not bolster any argument calling for Mercs to be regulated to one side of the invasion. Because remember, the MWO community is writing its own story. Which currently has very few Merc units taking contracts with Clan Wolf.......

Edited by Dracol, 09 January 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[girl on fire]

What if they did something similar to skins in DOTA and CS:GO, only with Mechs? There should be a really tiny chance to get a random salvage drop at the end of a round, that way you could have a small pool of clan mechs piloted by IS Mechwarriors and vice versa. I also think it'd be cool to have like a daily "mission" or something that rewards a small amount of MC, like 10-50.

[Amarus Cameron]

I read many posts here and I'm going to repost what I posted in another thread because it is just as needed here as it was there. Remember who you represent my fellow clansmen, and who you wish to be, our words have power, use them wisely.



I think our loses have less to do with them and more to do with us. I think we let the idea of being clan go to our heads. We started with some great merc units because we had great bonuses and they get to play in clan tech. Well the honeymoon is over, the FRR has some great bonuses and IS mechs are not as shoddy as they once were. We get nowhere by pontificating on what we cannot control. Strong merc units left, we have to deal with that.

So now the question is how to we attract more to our cause? How do we push forward glorious in victory and honorable in defeat. I have seen so many comments and posts about how CW is dead, I would say no, not at all. I would also say that these posts do nothing but make us look like a bunch of whiner babies. If you cannot post something that contributes to our success then why post, vent your frustrations personally with your clanmates off the official forums, lest you dishonor your unit and your clan.

I believe units within their clans need to work together, not caring who holds the world but just dropping together for the ultimate success of the clan. Do you think every galaxy in the clan always liked working together, don't be naive, we are all humans, vat born or otherwise, and we need to deal with that. So you can either talk about what PGI needs to do and accept your defeat, or you can circle the wagons and talk about what we can do to win for ourselves. That type of determination itself will attract more to our glorious cause. Show them what you were made for!


TL;DR
1) Accept that this is our problem, not merc units' or PGIs
2) Stop venting frustration on the official forums, keep that to teammates who understand and care
3) More communication between units and clans for Coordinated Assaults
4) Attract more to our cause through honorable conduct in victory as well as defeat

Thank you for your time, and Good Hunting Clansmen,
Amarus Cameron

[Alexander Steel]

Interestingly enough I think going on the forum and crying about "We are doomed unless PGI buffs us..." hurts your cause worse than anything else, as it makes people not want to join your cause and makes those already on your team more likely to quit.

[Amarus Cameron]

Alexander Steel, on 09 January 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Interestingly enough I think going on the forum and crying about "We are doomed unless PGI buffs us..." hurts your cause worse than anything else, as it makes people not want to join your cause and makes those already on your team more likely to quit.

And that is why I posted what I did.

[Sam Slade]

two words:  ALTER EGO
Allow players to use their Clan mechs and their IS mechs and all these problems will vanish.

NB: avoid conflict of interest by making some choices mutually exclusive(eg: cannot be Smoke Jags and Kurita)As to mercs... they have WAY too much freedom of action. Create Outreach and limit the contracts offered on the little CW to a select few. Mercs are not line units... they get what they are given and take the Spacebucks not the loyalty

Edited by Sam Slade, 09 January 2015 - 10:25 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Dracol, on 09 January 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

[/size]
Let me pose a counter point. MWO is not a reenactment of the Clan invasion originally told in the 80's & 90's by the FASA corp. MWO and its players are doing their own telling of the Clan invasion. Why is it so wrong for Merc units be playing both sides of the conflict? Does it not make it a more dynamic telling of the tale with allegiances shifting and Merc units doing the deeds other, more loyally aligned units dare not do?

To add to that, the forces of many factions and clans have been decimated by this continuous conflict. Does not their ability to entice freelance units to bolster their ranks benefit all?.... well at least those factions whose diplomacy skills are up to the task.

Not to mention, the website we are currently all on at the moment is mwoMERCS.com.

There is also precedent for a Merc unit to be aligned with multiple factions. Wolf's Dragoons was working with Clan Wolf and all of the great houses at one point or another. During the invasion their allegiance was less fluid, but that does not bolster any argument calling for Mercs to be regulated to one side of the invasion. Because remember, the MWO community is writing its own story. Which currently has very few Merc units taking contracts with Clan Wolf.......

Well, no. While the story of the invasion is up to the players to be written, the lore of the Clans is not. And Clans generally dislike mercs.

What kind of diplomacy, anyway, can stop trolls being trolls? I guess none.

And this leads to another key point: what good is for the Clans as a whole (and each individual Clan as well) if their merc units are just poking at the other Clans and diverting their resources to repel them instead of helping the thrust into the Inner Sphere? If you join them you should follow their general objective at very least, quiaff?

Last point.. Wolf's Dragoons did work for each Great House, but in the course of several years, and most importantly, they (mostly.. ) helped achieving their employer's goal. This is what a merc unit does. They do not just go attacking random planets of allied factions on their own hiding under the banner of their "employing" Clan/House. That makes them just pirates.

[Noesis]

CSJ seem to be doing well. Maybe they relate better to this model of Merc use and their mindset better and therefore find it easier to negociate with these interests as part of their campaign objectives?

[Alexander Steel]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

Last point.. Wolf's Dragoons did work for each Great House, but in the course of several years, and most importantly, they (mostly.. ) helped achieving their employer's goal. This is what a merc unit does. They do not just go attacking random planets of allied factions on their own hiding under the banner of their "employing" Clan/House. That makes them just pirates.

Nobody is attacking random planets. Each day the House or Clan you are part of declares a certain number of planets they would like to attack for the day and offers bonuses to people who are willing to carry out the objective for them. The fact that the House Leaders are NPCs doesn't change this.

[Dracol]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

Well, no. While the story of the invasion is up to the players to be written, the lore of the Clans is not. And Clans generally dislike mercs.

What kind of diplomacy, anyway, can stop trolls being trolls? I guess none.

Proper diplomacy. Had Clan Wolf's diplomatic core during their initial negotiations with CI during the first 2 weeks of CW had gone better, then things would have been different. Unfortunately for the Wolves, their demands and attitude turned us away (and I would guess a few other merc units as well) and those that do go Wolf have had poor experiences. There was a post on these forums by a Merc unit employed by Wolf that was none to flattering, but I didn't find it just yet. Anyone remember that one?

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

And this leads to another key point: what good is for the Clans as a whole (and each individual Clan as well) if their merc units are just poking at the other Clans and diverting their resources to repel them instead of helping the thrust into the Inner Sphere? If you join them you should follow their general objective at very least, quiaff?

Tis a race to Terra is it not? One Clan having their advance slowed down helps another Clan reach Terra first, does it not?

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

Last point.. Wolf's Dragoons did work for each Great House, but in the course of several years, and most importantly, they (mostly.. ) helped achieving their employer's goal. This is what a merc unit does. They do not just go attacking random planets of allied factions on their own hiding under the banner of their "employing" Clan/House. That makes them just pirates.

And as your fellow clanmate stated, our employers are the NPCs, not a player that some Wolf clansmen have called Khan. These NPCs offer attack contracts on their neighbors every single day. Units can ally with other units across borders, but in the end, its every faction for itself.

Edited by Dracol, 10 January 2015 - 06:11 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 10 January 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

CSJ seem to be doing well. Maybe they relate better to this model of Merc use and their mindset better and therefore find it easier to negociate with these interests as part of their campaign objectives?

Maybe i have not paid attention, but how many of your merc units are of such questionable loyalty as MS, CI etc.? The biggest merc unit you have, as far as i know, are the Rising Wolves which seem to be very loyal to CSJ. Your bad situation with low numbers probably helped forging more cohesion among all your units as well.

Alexander Steel, on 10 January 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Nobody is attacking random planets. Each day the House or Clan you are part of declares a certain number of planets they would like to attack for the day and offers bonuses to people who are willing to carry out the objective for them. The fact that the House Leaders are NPCs doesn't change this.

Random planets among those opened to attack by PGI. As we have no actual Khans deciding policies and alliances for all the units, the units themselves must decide on their "foreign policy". If the majority of the loyal Clan units all chose to not attack other Clans, and these mercs violate this truce, they slow down both the factions and foster mistrust among allies.

Quote

Tis a race to Terra is it not? One Clan having their advance slowed down helps another Clan reach Terra first, does it not?

Neg, only in some cases. When your faction has not taken all its available targets yet, or could use some more attacks on a target, an unit poking the other Clans is hampering its efforts. Anyway, even in the lore the Clans were actually allied, and they never fought (openly at least) against each other aside from the bidding room.

Quote

[size=4]And as your fellow clanmate stated, our employers are the NPCs, not a player that some Wolf clansmen have called Khan. These NPCs offer attack contracts on their neighbors every single day. Units can ally with other units across borders, but in the end, its every faction for itself.

Well, good job we all did then! We knew that we must have been united to face the IS numbers if we wanted to win. If every unit attacked/defended a different planet because "there is no Khan who can give us orders" then be sure no Clan would ever take or successfully defend planets.

And again: when most if not all the regular units of a Clan choose to not attack neighbouring Clans, a merc unit joining that faction must play by their rules; otherwise, they are pirates, or trolls, not helping anyone but themselves (maybe).

Last point: you say it is everyone for himself. Where is the "community" warfare then?

EDIT: after all the troubles mercs have given us since the Butte Holde incident, how can you expect our attitude to change? There are honorable merc units, but i have seen very few in Clan space so far.

Edited by CyclonerM, 10 January 2015 - 06:21 AM.

[Noesis]

Well if you only see things in black and white rather than shades of grey then it might explain a lack of diplomatic awareness.

There is another status on the board for you to consider and can be equally bought or co-oerced or even have indirect and unoticeable interests with the use of Merc groups with the idea of multiple battle lines.

The status is known as "neutral". Add a bit of "greyness" into your thinking perhaps, though perhaps with the momentum and poor maintenance of relations you might have a lot of painting to do now.

Maybe try for Rainbow peace and go back to the Kerensky Cluster? Well at least perhaps before the MERC groups move you back there? Oh wait you will always have your capital. Perhaps the MERC groups are doing an experiment to see what happens when a faction is only left with a Capital, all in the interests of science perhaps?

Edited by Noesis, 10 January 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Dracol]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

Neg, only in some cases. When your faction has not taken all its available targets yet, or could use some more attacks on a target, an unit poking the other Clans is hampering its efforts.

Just going to respond to this part here for now. Will respond to the rest of your post when I get back from work.

Gustrell over the New Years Weekend. CGB had their single IS planet locked up. No other attack options into IS available. Merc units with CGB attacked Wolf. This lead to no reduction in CGB frontline units. They still captured their lone IS planet. So, the Wolf's advance was hampered but not the Ghost Bears. Win for Clan Ghost Bear.

Edited by Dracol, 10 January 2015 - 06:34 AM.