287 replies to this topic

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

And again: when most if not all the regular units of a Clan choose to not attack neighbouring Clans, a merc unit joining that faction must play by their rules; otherwise, they are pirates, or trolls, not helping anyone but themselves (maybe).

I understand that you want the game to work that way, but the game doesn't work that way. PGI has been pretty clear that no player will be able to force another player or group of players to play the game the way they want. If my unit decides to attack Jade Falcon, and only Jade Falcon, we can and nothing your fake "Khan" says can change that.

[Noesis]

However have you not realised that by saying that MERCs cannot do something you are in fact forcing your prefered play style onto others?

[Baron Cunedda Kell]

Dracol, on 09 January 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

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Let me pose a counter point. MWO is not a reenactment of the Clan invasion originally told in the 80's & 90's by the FASA corp. MWO and its players are doing their own telling of the Clan invasion. Why is it so wrong for Merc units be playing both sides of the conflict? Does it not make it a more dynamic telling of the tale with allegiances shifting and Merc units doing the deeds other, more loyally aligned units dare not do?

To add to that, the forces of many factions and clans have been decimated by this continuous conflict. Does not their ability to entice freelance units to bolster their ranks benefit all?.... well at least those factions whose diplomacy skills are up to the task.

Not to mention, the website we are currently all on at the moment is mwoMERCS.com.

There is also precedent for a Merc unit to be aligned with multiple factions. Wolf's Dragoons was working with Clan Wolf and all of the great houses at one point or another. During the invasion their allegiance was less fluid, but that does not bolster any argument calling for Mercs to be regulated to one side of the invasion. Because remember, the MWO community is writing its own story. Which currently has very few Merc units taking contracts with Clan Wolf.......

I see your point and can agree with it, to a point...but overall, my Role-playing side and Renactment side, TOTALLY rejects this... I know in CWI, (clan Wolf International) we would if given the choice, NEVER EVER use mercs to fight this war....I can not speak on behalf of the other clans, but we embrace the role-playing side, the rich history and etc.... But I do appreciate your point of view and will ponder it...

[Alexander Steel]

Just curious... are people calling anybody who doesn't go Loyalist a Merc?

[Baron Cunedda Kell]

Dracol, on 10 January 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Proper diplomacy. Had Clan Wolf's diplomatic core during their initial negotiations with CI during the first 2 weeks of CW had gone better, then things would have been different. Unfortunately for the Wolves, their demands and attitude turned us away (and I would guess a few other merc units as well) and those that do go Wolf have had poor experiences. There was a post on these forums by a Merc unit employed by Wolf that was none to flattering, but I didn't find it just yet. Anyone remember that one?


Tis a race to Terra is it not? One Clan having their advance slowed down helps another Clan reach Terra first, does it not?


[size=4]And as your fellow clanmate stated, our employers are the NPCs, not a player that some Wolf clansmen have called Khan. These NPCs offer attack contracts on their neighbors every single day. Units can ally with other units across borders, but in the end, its every faction for itself.

Dracol, I agree in todays mindset, we would have treated you with roses and chocolates to join us and any merc unit, to advance our adgenda towards terra, but as you pointed out, making my point, we are renacting Clan Wolf and the mind set of the clans...that Mercs are even worst in our eyes than house units.... Hence the treatment from my understanding you and others received...don't get me wrong...You as a player, a human being didn't deserve it, so I will step up and offer an apology but the character and role you assumed sadly did deserve it, under the current mindset that I am aware of.

So I guess...Questions need to be asked... which way is PGI going with this?
1. are they forcing the clans to use mercs?
A, if so, why?
1. Then knowing the answer, we must as players/clans will be forced to forsake lore and what we paid for in this game and do diplomacy with merc and everyone else, not just clans only...
B. if Not, then why permitt mercs or anyone to suddenly change from one faction to another with no penalty....as jumping from one side of the known universe to the other is a bit irritating..


I can keep asking more questions....but these are the current ones that hit me, at this early morning with only 1 cup of coffee...

[CyclonerM]

Dracol, on 10 January 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

[/size]

Just going to respond to this part here for now. Will respond to the rest of your post when I get back from work.

Gustrell over the New Years Weekend. CGB had their single IS planet locked up. No other attack options into IS available. Merc units with CGB attacked Wolf. This lead to no reduction in CGB frontline units. They still captured their lone IS planet. So, the Wolf's advance was hampered but not the Ghost Bears. Win for Clan Ghost Bear.

1) This is why i said that it is true only some times. Anyway, the major Bear units had agreed to not attack Wolf, so how can i not consider you a pirate or a troll?

Alexander Steel, on 10 January 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

I understand that you want the game to work that way, but the game doesn't work that way. PGI has been pretty clear that no player will be able to force another player or group of players to play the game the way they want. If my unit decides to attack Jade Falcon, and only Jade Falcon, we can and nothing your fake "Khan" says can change that.

As i said, if we are not united in community warfare, we cannot win. It is a game of numbers and we need to agree on our targets and policies. You know, "Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness.."

Noesis, on 10 January 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

However have you not realised that by saying that MERCs cannot do something you are in fact forcing your prefered play style onto others?

At this moment we cannot force anything, but not respecting agreements made by the faction you are working for sounds pretty low and leads to no good for the Clans as a whole and, in some cases, to your faction as well.

Alexander Steel, on 10 January 2015 - 06:45 AM, said:

Just curious... are people calling anybody who doesn't go Loyalist a Merc?

Aff. That seems to be PGI's position as well: if you are not a regular/loyalist/line unit member, you are either a lone wolf (=merc) or a merc unit player, quiaff?

[Noesis]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

At this moment we cannot force anything, but not respecting agreements made by the faction you are working for sounds pretty low and leads to no good for the Clans as a whole and, in some cases, to your faction as well.

In your opinion, though the logic stands. However as an example if a player unit not representative of canon, since PGI have asked for player to use non-canon units) decided to attack each other as a viable playing option then would that be considered a problem only by default that they are not following the lore as per written in BT history.

If so then as has been remarked by PGI (Paul) that player units can attempt to change the course of history there is no need to stick to the lore conventions. If this is the case then Mercs dont need to stick to IS houses. Clans can attack Clans, and irrespective of mechanics, Bandits, pirates and other free elements of the periphery with perhaps more nomadic concerns allowed to go where they like. Though this was apparent from the lore anyhow. So there is a definitive case that if these MERC units are acting like elements of the Dark Caste as a choice then they could chose to attack the Clans whilst being in a certain faction.

To restrict the effects of these things then possibly more to do with logistics and not being a full sand box. Whilst also certain groups believing or imposing their own ideals that others aren't following their script after being told that this would be apparent.

All I see is people complaining for their own patch, with little concern to the bigger picture of player choice and fun. But this has been said before and fell on deaf ears.

[CyclonerM]

It is not just lore conventions, but logic as well.If you are fighting for my faction, but you attack our allies just for your own fun or to make money, and/or ignore our faction's targets, i see you as a rebellious child or a troll. If there was an actual pirate faction that might have been fine, but if most of the players establish an agreement and i see an unit repeatedly and willingly break it just for the lulz, how can it be fine with me? Our opinon of mercs and our attitude towards them cannot improve in any way.

I see this as a lack of CW: the lack of control over mercs. They only fight for themselves, not for their faction, often. And especially not for the Clans as a whole.

I am curious now.. Did MPBT 3025 have mercs? If yes, how were they implemented?

[Noesis]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

It is not just lore conventions, but logic as well.If you are fighting for my faction, but you attack our allies just for your own fun or to make money, and/or ignore our faction's targets, i see you as a rebellious child or a troll. If there was an actual pirate faction that might have been fine, but if most of the players establish an agreement and i see an unit repeatedly and willingly break it just for the lulz, how can it be fine with me? Our opinon of mercs and our attitude towards them cannot improve in any way.

You may want to check out an overnight decision made by the The Clan Wolf Golden Keshik unit then.

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 10 January 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

You may want to check out an overnight decision made by the The Clan Wolf Golden Keshik unit then.

Sadly the frustration has hit many warriors in the Clans..

[Noesis]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

Sadly the frustration has hit many warriors in the Clans Wolf..

FIFY

I would be very careful of speaking for all the Clans and perhaps all player units. This kind of responsibility is normally left to a representative ilKhan.

Edited by Noesis, 10 January 2015 - 08:31 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 10 January 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

FIFY

I would be very careful of speaking for all the Clans and perhaps all player units. This kind of responsibility is normally left to a representative ilKhan.

I did not know we had one

Well, this is something you can see from the player count and in the forums. I have seen more than a Bear saying that he has stopped playing CW, so i think it is safe to assume that this is not limited to my Clan..

[Dracol]

CyclonerM, on 10 January 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

It is not just lore conventions, but logic as well.If you are fighting for my faction, but you attack our allies just for your own fun or to make money, and/or ignore our faction's targets, i see you as a rebellious child or a troll. If there was an actual pirate faction that might have been fine, but if most of the players establish an agreement and i see an unit repeatedly and willingly break it just for the lulz, how can it be fine with me? Our opinon of mercs and our attitude towards them cannot improve in any way.

I see this as a lack of CW: the lack of control over mercs. They only fight for themselves, not for their faction, often. And especially not for the Clans as a whole.

I am curious now.. Did MPBT 3025 have mercs? If yes, how were they implemented?

Original Lore and MWO's own tale both have an underlining theme, the first Clan to Terra wins. In lore, the Clan that reached Terra would become the first Ilkhan. In MWO, the first Clan to reach Terra would have major bragging rights.

I want to pull out one thing you said and highlight it: "especially not for the Clans as a whole"

I can assure you this maybe the public face Clan units show the public, but behind closed doors and out of the view of each other, each Clan is trying to stack the deck in their favor so they can be first.

If CW is viewed as "Clans versus Inner Sphere" only, then it would follow that those not participating in Clan V IS battles are not behaving accordingly.

If CW viewed how it is setup to play as, each House and Clan have their own self to look after.

Granted, an alliance among the Clans to all push to Terra is beneficial to all Clans. It allows weaker Clans to focus their forces on their attack lanes while the stronger Clans can attack their planets while defending other Clan planets. Any Clan would publicly denounce rogue Clan actions against another Clan.

But it is a dog eat dog universe in MWO CW. Weaknesses, such as Clan Wolf making a treaty with Steiner due to the fact they did not have enough forces to attack two fronts, will be exploited.

Edited by Dracol, 10 January 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Dracol]

Baron Cunedda Kell, on 10 January 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

we are renacting Clan Wolf

Those who wish to reenact the Clan invasion are shackling yourselves with chains that do not exist. With that said, I do not wish for you to change on my behalf. If it increases you enjoyment of MWO, then go right ahead. It is unfortunate though that there are some members of this community that wish to have the rest of us shackled with calls for the devs to put chains in place.

Baron Cunedda Kell, on 10 January 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

So I guess...Questions need to be asked... which way is PGI going with this?
1. are they forcing the clans to use mercs?

It is not being forced upon the Clans to use Mercs. Houses and Factions require foot soldiers. It is up to the House Units and Loyalist Clan Units to provide those troops. Its about recruiting, training, and retaining MWO players.

Now, if the units within a Clan or House are unable to maintain and/or increase their troop count, they may need to look to employing Mercs to bolster their strength.

Baron Cunedda Kell, on 10 January 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

A, if so, why?
1. Then knowing the answer, we must as players/clans will be forced to forsake lore and what we paid for in this game and do diplomacy with merc and everyone else, not just clans only...

If your Clan of choice is able to maintain their numbers, than you'd be able to follow lore. If the Clans can not produce the troops to recreate the Clan invasion, then they either can hire Mercs or lose the invasion. Either way, it will not be a reenactment but MWO's own telling of the tale.

Baron Cunedda Kell, on 10 January 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

B. if Not, then why permitt mercs or anyone to suddenly change from one faction to another with no penalty....as jumping from one side of the known universe to the other is a bit irritating..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in lore, all planets didn't fall within a 24hr period? Nor could forces move from one system to the next and start their next conquest in 40 minutes?

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

that Mercs are even worst in our eyes than house units....

Except for the ones we let get blood names, make commander of our Alpha Galaxy, and eventually even let the merc become saKahn. Of course the wolf Khan at the time had spent 30+ years as a IS Merc as well so.. yeah. We hate mercs.. so much.. grr.. grr...

[Sam Slade]

Right, enough of this 'diplomacy' nonsense: diplomacy is the mechanism of political interaction between unitary entities. Politics is the exercise of power... essentially politics is power. When you understand that it should become quite clear that for the Clans facing the IS there can be NO diplomacy that leads to peace.

The Clans come to reconstruct a social order; there is no power sharing or mutual defense without conflict. That is the lore; when the Smoke Jags where utterly destroyed it was a political exercise. To many of the remaining Clans it showed that the Smoke Jags were politically immature... they were bad diplomats.

I'm all for rewriting the history but do not use that as a caveat to impose an entirely different story-world on the Battletech universe. You may as well have the Eridani Light Horse drop into battle on super charged space unicorns and give Prince Victor a magic ring to drop into Mount Jade Falcon.

Get back to the actual in game problems and stop theory crafting to justify an imperfect system.

[Alexander Steel]

The Ghost Bears came to a peaceful understanding with FRR.... The Wolf's sent a large portion of their forces to defend the IS in true Warden fashion.

[Dracol]

Sam Slade, on 10 January 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

...impose an entirely different story-world on the Battletech universe.

As stated previously, there is a precedent in lore for:

• A merc unit to work for multiple Houses and Clans
  
• Clans to work with merc units to complete missions on the down low

Nothing is entirely different. Mercs are just playing a bigger role within the MWO history than they did in the books.

Now the first argument that will spring to mind is something along the lines of "but that was only one unit". Yes, only one really famous unit that everyone wrote about. But the beauty of a table top game like Battletech is that players have the option to create a unit that can share a similar story arc. MWO just so happens to also be providing that option.

[Ihasa]

In deference to my mates diplomatic posts...

The way to fix the merc issue with clans is for a bunch of man-children to not over RP themselves so their panties get in a twist over other people playing a game the way they don't want them too.

This is not reenactment. It's a game about stompy robots loosely based on some IP. Play the way you want, and let others play the way they want, also loosely based on lore, without passing sanctimonious rage or indignant, hypocritical whining.

Edited by Ihasa, 10 January 2015 - 10:17 PM.

[Gyrok]

Ihasa, on 10 January 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

In deference to my mates diplomatic posts...

The way to fix the merc issue with clans is for a bunch of man-children to not over RP themselves so their panties get in a twist over other people playing a game the way they don't want them too.

This is not reenactment. It's a game about stompy robots loosely based on some IP. Play the way you want, and let others play the way they want, also loosely based on lore, without passing sanctimonious rage or indignant, hypocritical whining.

So, if 2 groups make an agreement can you not MAN UP and respect it, or are you going to continue to attack a clan from a position that is held by their allies?

Just curious...because the BS is getting old...