287 replies to this topic

[Davers]

IronClaws, on 02 January 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

Yes, CW is supposed to be "Hardcore Roleplaying Mode" so if any IS pilots chose to join a clan, it should be a permanent contract (bondsmen). Also, I think that if you take a permanent contract, you should not be able to break that contract without a really good, verifiable reason and an email to support (account hacked or whatever). The penalty for ending contracts early should be increased and there should be a penalty the next time you try to get a contract with the faction that you left early.

Since many of the most competitive units in the game are mercs with both IS and Clan mechs I think doing this would be very bad for the game.

RustyBolts, on 04 January 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

The problem is under the current set up the MERCs cannot be held accountable for their actions and the actions of a few are reflecting badly on the factions that they have signed on to support.

So do pugs who just want to do drops. Shall we make up rules to punish them too?

Baron Cunedda Kell, on 09 January 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

And don't even get my started on the unbalance of the perks... . Clan Mech are almost the IS now and the IS mech are now the Clan mechs with all those perks...

And I know you were hoping to be the guys with the OP tech.

[Alexander Steel]

Gyrok, on 10 January 2015 - 11:19 PM, said:

So, if 2 groups make an agreement can you not MAN UP and respect it, or are you going to continue to attack a clan from a position that is held by their allies?

Just curious...because the BS is getting old...

Just because I happen to fly the same banner as you doesn't give you any right to make deals in my name. Your deals are limited to the people who agree to follow them. Just like if I go "Hey guys I made a deal with Steiner last night that said that we won't attack them. So you have to follow it." You'd probably think... "Who the heck gave this clown the right to speak for me..."

[Aresye]

Ihasa, on 10 January 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

In deference to my mates diplomatic posts...

The way to fix the merc issue with clans is for a bunch of man-children to not over RP themselves so their panties get in a twist over other people playing a game the way they don't want them too.

This is not reenactment. It's a game about stompy robots loosely based on some IP. Play the way you want, and let others play the way they want, also loosely based on lore, without passing sanctimonious rage or indignant, hypocritical whining.

It's not just an issue with RP. I for one don't really care about RP when it comes to CW. I care about the members of my unit, and the health of CW as a whole, both of which are related to the nature of the game itself.

From a pure, gameplay oriented viewpoint, what we've had over the past week is just simply "not fun." A game has to have some form of reward vs. effort ratio. When the reward vs. effort ratio gets small to non-existent, the game ceases to be fun.

Now, I'm not trying to say that factions should get the equivalent of participation trophies or have some semblance of entitlement. Far from it really. What I am saying is players have to get "something" out of the game to continue playing it, whether it's a win that means something, or even something as simple as a, "Hey, we're pretty weak right now, let's agree to not fight each other, okay?" which helps a good majority of players to still enjoy the game, because it allows them to concentrate their efforts on achieving something.

Before the beginning of last week, our participation was still very high. 3-4 12mans running for long periods of time. Now, we've barely got enough people forming up to create 1 12man, and it goes for maybe a couple hours tops.

Why? It's simple. There's no reward vs. effort anymore. Why would anybody want to play for hours and hours facing comp team after comp team, knowing that even if they win, they're still going to lose? Our guys saw that their efforts were completely pointless, so they mostly all went back to doing regular queue drops because they can at least feel like they're accomplishing something.

Add on the constant thread derailments, trolling, etc. on the forums, and eventually the question has to be asked: "What exactly are we getting out of CW?"

Just tonight I saw CI is back at it attacking Wolf again. I think you'll find it a bit easier this time, and probably a lot more ghost drops, because about 90% of my unit's 230 members don't feel like voluntarily lying down just so you can (somewhat literally) kick the dog, as if we hadn't had to put up with an enormous amount of BS from you guys already.

It's the same thing that happened to the 12man queue. People may think it died because of the small number of groups playing, and while that's partially true, they're overlooking the fact that the reason there were so few groups was because the majority of non-competitive units got sick of the general trolling and trash talk from the comp units.

So, let's throw RP completely out the window. It isn't a violation of cease-fire or anything at this point. It's just simply a bunch of the bigger kids all beating up the weaker kid for the lulz, and even the way you try to justify it, with, "Play the way you want, and let others play the way they want," doesn't really hold much water when the way you want to play is by mass gangbanging a faction until most of their members leave. I guess if, "Play the way you want," means wanting to act like a bunch of tools to other people playing the same game, you're well on track.

On the plus side, this whole week has given me more time to actually work on something useful in my personal life, so...thanks?

[CyclonerM]

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

Just because I happen to fly the same banner as you doesn't give you any right to make deals in my name. Your deals are limited to the people who agree to follow them. Just like if I go "Hey guys I made a deal with Steiner last night that said that we won't attack them. So you have to follow it." You'd probably think... "Who the heck gave this clown the right to speak for me..."

The right of the majority. We do not have a single leader deciding for everyone (sadly) so it is more like a democracy (or oligarchy?). When the majority of the units concentrate on a target, you usually do no good for your faction if you choose to ignore what everyone else is doing. Yes maybe you had fun going your own way, because you are the cool indipendent merc who decides his own fate, but now our factions are weaker , and the mercs trolls on both sides did not help. People are barely playing CW. Is it more fun now? Or maybe it would have been more if we were united as a community?

If you want to be a lone wolf hiding in the shadow of our banner, play public drops, something i guess everyone is doing now. I will still try to do a few pug drops in CW, in case someone is still there to accept the challenge. And i hope there is, because i am tired of pug matches.

You wanted CW so much and now you got bored so easily? I hate the Thunderbolt meta as many others, but if we do not fight, we will not learn the best counters nor we will get anything back, even if we are just talking about dots on a map.

See you in the battlefield.

[Dracol]

Gyrok, on 10 January 2015 - 11:19 PM, said:

So, if 2 groups make an agreement can you not MAN UP and respect it, or are you going to continue to attack a clan from a position that is held by their allies?

Those you made the agreement with are not breaking their agreement. CI does not break any agreements we make. If members of Clan Wolf would like to make deal with us, I am sure CI leadership will be willing to listen. Can't guarantee it will be accepted since Clan Wolf is currently in a very weak bargaining position, but they will at least listen and consider any proposal you offer.

Edited by Dracol, 11 January 2015 - 06:11 AM.

[Dracol]

Aresye, on 11 January 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

"Hey, we're pretty weak right now, let's agree to not fight each other, okay?"

Let me ask you something, why did Clan Wolf become so weak 22 days after CW started?

I am interested to hear what you think led to Wolves decline, but I'm going to pose some ideas of why the decline as well.

To start, Clan Wolf seems to attract the very RP minded Mechwarrior gamer which limited their Clans appeal to a small segment of the MWO community from the start. It also concentrated a large segment of the MWO population that is looking for a reenactment of the Clan Invasion.

Players who expected a reenactment of the Clan Invasion have become disillusioned with the reality that MWO is not recreating the epic Clan ownage of the IS. This has led to some Clan Wolf players not enjoying CW.

Then there is Clan Wolf's issue with dealing with Mercs. Prior to Christmas, Clan Wolf leadership did attempt to reinforce their ranks with Mercs but they approached from an RP angle. Which, as this thread has clearly shown, Clanners despise Mercs and this attitude carried over into their negotiations.

Clan Wolf continued to sail under the banner of "Lore" with the vision of all Clans working together to get to Terra despite the game being designed otherwise. Even though Clan Wolf leadership held the "Lore" banner high, they made a deal with Steiner for a ceasefire which was covered in hypocrisy.

Now the first CI incursion into Wolf territory round Christmas day. Even though CI had worked out a deal with some of the Wolf leadership for us to attempt to create a path from Ghost Bear to the Jade Falcons, the other members of Wolf called foul and CI withdrew their attack quite quickly. Clan Wolf response to the incursion was the start of some very bad PR.

Then came the New Year's Eve attack. Clan Wolf cried... wolf.

Clan Wolf denouncing the attacks was expected. Clan Ghost Bear denying and denouncing the attacks was expected. What was not expect was Clan Wolf crying to Momma that the kids weren't playing fair on the playground.

Now, had Clan Wolf leadership been smart, they would have said something along the lines of "Clan Ghost Bear, if you do not put a stop to these attacks, then no Clan Wolf member will defend a Clan Ghost Bear planet from attack." It was Wolf's only move considering how weak they had become.

But, Clan Wolf leadership did not. Instead, they marched to the forums crying for a system to be put in place that would make agreements they made with some units to be forced upon all others. They marched to the forums crying for "Lore" and making Mercs IS only. They marched to the forums demanding PGI do something. They cried "This is not how it is suppose to happen!" They cried "Clan never attacked each other in CW." They cried "Make them play the game the way we do".

And at that point I believe the MWO community lost all respect for Clan Wolf who has yet to recover from their terrible PR. It also showed how weak Clan Wolf was and that painted a target on Clan Wolf.

And I believe it was at this point the Clan Wolf players realized that it was not going to be a reenactment with the foregone conclusion of Wolf leading the charge.

And I believe it was at this point Clan Wolf leadership realized they F*up in their dealings with Mercs because the Clan Wolf leadership assumed Mercs would just play a minor role within CW by doing the bidding of House and Clan units.

The fact Mercs have more influence within CW than what Clan Wolf could muster really grinds the gears of RP hardcore Wolf players. Since they can not have their way, they have decided not to try anymore.

tl:dr: Clan Wolf attracted the RP heavy crowd. When CW didn't go their way and it became apparent Mercs have more influence than they did in lore, Wolf first tried to get the game changed to what they wanted and failing that, they said "CW sucks, we're not playing"

Edited by Dracol, 11 January 2015 - 05:56 AM.

[Lsq78]

Overall, I quite agree with your analysis, but...

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

Clan Wolf leadership

Literally who?

[Dracol]

Lsq78, on 11 January 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

Overall, I quite agree with your analysis, but...

Literally who?

Well, there's this guy: Gyrok Carns - Khan

And there had to be some sort of leadership over the Clan Wolf units, how else could a ceasefire come to be between two factions without one? If there wasn't, then it was just one unit, or a few units, saying they spoke for the whole faction when they did not.

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

The right of the majority. We do not have a single leader deciding for everyone (sadly) so it is more like a democracy (or oligarchy?).

1. I don't know if you've ever heard of the rights of the individual over the Tyranny of the Majority. Considering that PGI controls what planets each of the groups can attack and fight over AND made clear that players would not have faction control, this is a thing.

2. A harsher concept, but one that applies. A power only has rights they can either enforce, or get somebody else to enforce for them. Clan wolf "Leadership" can only enforce their rule on those who agree to follow it. They literally have no power to make somebody follow their orders.

3. Leadership comes from convincing people to give the leaders power over them. If somebody doesn't wish to follow, they don't have to. If several people on my block claim to be the leaders of my block and tell me that we all have to buy the same car, I'm going to refuse to follow their orders even if the "majority" of the block voted in favor of it.

4. I find it ironic that part of Clan Wolf seems to want their members to be good little Sheep.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Quote

Now the first CI incursion into Wolf territory round Christmas day. Even though CI had worked out a deal with some of the Wolf leadership for us to attempt to create a path from Ghost Bear to the Jade Falcons, the other members of Wolf called foul and CI withdrew their attack quite quickly. Clan Wolf response to the incursion was the start of some very bad PR.

]Ahaha. Again with this supposed deal? How could you have obtained a path to the Falcons with the algorythm choosing the contested planets? And again, just switching faction if you were so interested in fighting the Falcons? You do not have any loyalty so no one in your unit would have cried if you left the Bears, i guess. It was just an excuse to take Wolf planets, and a very bad one. I would call this bad PR. And after all this attacks and us you expected us to be more open toward mercs? I cannot speak for any leader but if i was one, how could i make a deal and maybe give you something in return for such a questionable loyalty? Considering you actions, you and the other merc units might have just switched faction after 7 days because "no one can tell you what to do". You say we were crying to our moms, but you are the rebellious childs who have no idea of what an united commmunity should be. [/color]
[color=#959595]nothing of the deals and negotiations prior to CW, but your following actions and those of the other merc units have only reinforced my distaste for some mercs.

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

1. I don't know if you've ever heard of the rights of the individual over the Tyranny of the Majority. Considering that PGI controls what planets each of the groups can attack and fight over AND made clear that players would not have faction control, this is a thing.

2. A harsher concept, but one that applies. A power only has rights they can either enforce, or get somebody else to enforce for them. Clan wolf "Leadership" can only enforce their rule on those who agree to follow it. They literally have no power to make somebody follow their orders.

3. Leadership comes from convincing people to give the leaders power over them. If somebody doesn't wish to follow, they don't have to. If several people on my block claim to be the leaders of my block and tell me that we all have to buy the same car, I'm going to refuse to follow their orders even if the "majority" of the block voted in favor of it.

4. I find it ironic that part of Clan Wolf seems to want their members to be good little Sheep.

I find that it makes sense that part of Clan Wolf wants to have an united community..

It is so much like a pug drop. There is someone calling for a tactic and some pugs refuse to do it because, apparently, they know better and they can do whatever they want to do. Then they cry because the team lost.

If you really know better, go out and take back our planets. Alone, because you are contribuiting frammenting our community. Good luck.

EDIT: tyrannical majority? Then in a democracy if i believe it is my right to steal your watch i can do it because the tyrannical majority that imposed the law that makes it a crime cannot enforce something on me?

Edited by CyclonerM, 11 January 2015 - 06:24 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

Then in a democracy if i believe it is my right to steal your watch i can do it because the tyrannical majority that imposed the law that makes it a crime cannot enforce something on me?

I'm quoting this because it's amusing.

Quote

I find that it makes sense that part of Clan Wolf wants to have an united community.

In order to unite a community you don't start out ((as people in this thread have asked for)) tools to punish people who don't agree to your community rules. If you can't see how that's a problem, then we can always go back to stealing watches.

I think the big problem is that you are confusing who is in charge. It's not the "So Called" Khan of Clan of Wolf, it's PGI. PGI sets the rules, and has vastly limited whatever power faction members have to force their will over other members of their faction.

Sort of like if somebody demanded the power to kick people from 12 man PUG drops if the rest of the people in the drop didn't follow their orders to the letter. Wait, I bet some people would like that power.

Quote

Alone, because you are contribuiting frammenting our community. Good luck.

I'm pretty sure that happened when a group of people decided to make Clan Wolf the RPers of the Game and got upset when others didn't decide to join in. So they started making threads asking for PGI to give them something to punish those who didn't want to play their RP Wolf games.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[RustyBolts]

I realize that the RP went out the window when PGI started nerfing the **** out of Clan gear and the death sentence to RP was when CW offered up both Mercs and inter Clan warfare on the Clans. However, that still does not address the problem with Mercs who join a faction and troll an ally, then switch to another faction to still troll and then switch back again to continue to troll some more.

The weekly change in contracts, in my opinion, is a broken mechanic in CW just like I think hitreg is with lights and PPCs. However, when we bring it up that the contracts need to be addressed we are called cry babies. And I will not even address or respond to any post by anyone who cannot post without some kind of insult.

So ONCE again on TOPIC. Mercs/dagger stars need to have a control mechanism.

1) Some kind of MCRB for both sides with larger penalties for breaking a contract and some kind of mechanism to cancel a Merc/Dagger Star contract.

2) Longer Contract periods. I have mixed emotions on this one since longer contracts may cause a faction to lose interest if a beat down starts to occur. However, a longer contract will make sure units decide more carefully on what faction they choose and if they can be held accountable, what actions they choose.

Edited by RustyBolts, 11 January 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Dracol]

RustyBolts, on 11 January 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

However, that still does not address the problem with Mercs who join a faction and troll an ally, then switch to another faction to still troll and then switch back again to continue to troll some more.

Here's the rub. Units can ally with other units. Factions can not ally with other factions. Unless it was not made public, as far as I am aware, no units are breaking their agreements with other units and attacking them.

Now, when it comes to Clans attacking other Clans. Wolf seems to be the only ones weakened by this. Ghost Bears continue to gain ground, defend territory, and slow down the advance of their competitors who are also racing to Terra.

So, is it trolling if it advances the cause of a single Clan over all others?

Edited by Dracol, 11 January 2015 - 06:40 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

Mercs/dagger stars need to have a control mechanism.

Mercs/Dagger Stars do not need to have a control mechanism.

The ability and what planets to attack is entirely controlled by PGI, you are asking for an ability to punish people for playing the game exactly the way PGI set it up.

"Hey PGI, I would like the ability to force people not to be able to use PPC's if me and several other units decide that PPC's are not to be used and other people won't listen to me."

That's what you are asking for. It's silly.

[Dracol]

RustyBolts, on 11 January 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

1) Some kind of MCRB for both sides with larger penalties for breaking a contract and some kind of mechanism to cancel a Merc/Dagger Star contract.

2) Longer Contract periods. I have mixed emotions on this one since longer contracts may cause a faction to lose interest if a beat down starts to occur. However, a longer contract will make sure units decide more carefully on what faction they choose and if they can be held accountable, what actions they choose.

These solutions would not help Clan Wolf. It would just leave units to attack Wolf in position for longer periods of time.

[Alexander Steel]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

[/size]
Here's the rub. Units can ally with other units. Factions can not ally with other factions. Unless it was not made public, as far as I am aware, no units are breaking their agreements with other units and attacking them.

Now, when it comes to Clans attacking other Clans. Wolf seems to be the only ones weakened by this. Ghost Bears continue to gain ground, defend territory, and slow down the advance of their competitors who are also racing to Terra.

So, is it trolling if it advances the cause of a single Clan over all others?

It is interesting that Ghost Bear, the clan that has embraced the game as it's presented instead of how they wished it to be has captured more planets than any other clan faction despite not being able to attack planets on one of their fronts for the last few weeks.

Wolf is in the exact opposite boat and is the only clan in negative planets taken.

Hmmm... isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Quote

These solutions would not help Clan Wolf. It would just leave units to attack Wolf in position for longer periods of time.

It's not uncommon for some people when they do something that fails to get locked into a mind set that they just need to keep doing the same thing but MORE in order to win.

Wolf set out ((as documented here)) being unpleasant to Mercs and others who might join their faction. This caused them to be unpopular and now they are failing harder. Instead of changing their ways they want more tools to let them be even more unpleasant to people.

Hint: Wolf isn't failing because some lone wolfs from time to time attack Falcon or Ghost Bear. It's not the other two clans that are carving up the Wolf holdings like they were a pig on a grill.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 11 January 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[RustyBolts]

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

[/size]
Here's the rub. Units can ally with other units. Factions can not ally with other factions. Unless it was not made public, as far as I am aware, no units are breaking their agreements with other units and attacking them.

Now, when it comes to Clans attacking other Clans. Wolf seems to be the only ones weakened by this. Ghost Bears continue to gain ground, defend territory, and slow down the advance of their competitors who are also racing to Terra.

So, is it trolling if it advances the cause of a single Clan over all others?

Yes CGB did well the last week. That was because they did not have to deal with as many comp teams hitting them as Wolf and Faclon did.

And yes I consider it trolling when some Merc units jump back and forth trying to incite fighting between allies.

Alexander Steel, on 11 January 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Mercs/Dagger Stars do not need to have a control mechanism.

The ability and what planets to attack is entirely controlled by PGI, you are asking for an ability to punish people for playing the game exactly the way PGI set it up.

"Hey PGI, I would like the ability to force people not to be able to use PPC's if me and several other units decide that PPC's are not to be used and other people won't listen to me."

That's what you are asking for. It's silly.

I see your point, but no I do not find it silly that the PGI needs to adjust there control mechanism. I am just offering up my opinion on how to do it.

Dracol, on 11 January 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

These solutions would not help Clan Wolf. It would just leave units to attack Wolf in position for longer periods of time.

Never said it was just for wolf and I did include in my post that it would open up for longer periods of attack. Jags in the beginning and Falcon and Wolf lately suffered from this. Also, it was not just the Clans. Liao, Marik and Kurita are also suffering from this.

[Dracol]

RustyBolts, on 11 January 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

And yes I consider it trolling when some Merc units jump back and forth trying to incite fighting between allies.

Has any Clan unit that Wolf made agreements with attacked you? If that is not the case and if the intentions of Merc units was to "incite fighting between allies", then they failed.

But the most likely scenario is that Mercs are not trying to turn ally unit against ally unit.

[Dracol]

RustyBolts, on 11 January 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Never said it was just for wolf and I did include in my post that it would open up for longer periods of attack. Jags in the beginning and Falcon and Wolf lately suffered from this. Also, it was not just the Clans. Liao, Marik and Kurita are also suffering from this.

Suffering from Merc units leaving them? Has Clan Wolf asked themselves why they don't stay? Have they asked themselves why Clan Ghost Bear keeps attracting Mercs?

Steiner just lost some big Merc units due to rotation and yet, they seem not to be suffering. Has the Clan Wolf leadership asked themselves why that is and what can be learned from it?

[Alexander Steel]

Clearly the reason they are leaving is that Wolf doesn't have enough tools to punish them with.