287 replies to this topic

[Alexander Steel]

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Loyalists are soldiers that fight for their homes and clans. They should get the upper hand on planetary warfare cause they are the ones paying the mercs to fight for/with them.

Where do you get this idea from? It's certainly not from the lore. The commander of the 2nd Sword of Light, doesn't send somebody to Outreach to hire mercs to help his unit out. House units have *0* input in hiring mercs.

Now if you are trying to say that's how it should be....

[Gyrok]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Where do you get this idea from? It's certainly not from the lore. The commander of the 2nd Sword of Light, doesn't send somebody to Outreach to hire mercs to help his unit out. House units have *0* input in hiring mercs.

Now if you are trying to say that's how it should be....

So, you are saying that Mercenaries do not sign a contract with a House? Because that is completely counter to any lore period.

House units ARE the house.

[Alexander Steel]

House Units and the House are not the same thing.

Example: The Davion Heavy Guard are a house unit for the Federated Suns. They however do not hire mercs and are never involved with the process. The idea that House Units hire mercs is counter to the way the lore works except in some really weird crazy situations like during the Fed-Com civil war where Merc units and even house units lost a clear chain of command that ended with a house leader.

Hans Davion and his appointed staff are the leaders of House Davion. THEY hire Mercs.

House Davion is not run by the House Units of the military. In much the same way the United States is not run by a collection of Generals/Cols in the military.

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House units ARE the house.

No they aren't.

To further expand...

Big units, like the Kell Hounds, Wolf's Dragoons, Grey Death Legion and the like actually get to deal with the Head of the House or the House's Head of the Military. Smaller units can be hired by Nobles or Heads of Industry for guard duty.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 18 February 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[LastKhan]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Where do you get this idea from? It's certainly not from the lore. The commander of the 2nd Sword of Light, doesn't send somebody to Outreach to hire mercs to help his unit out. House units have *0* input in hiring mercs.

Now if you are trying to say that's how it should be....

Ah should've said the factions and clans themselves fight for planetary gains to increase their territories and they hire the mercs, not the units themselves. Sorry, didnt get across what i wanted in this very, very summarized portion. They should still get the upper hand in planetary conquest in my view.

[Alexander Steel]

Gotcha. You'd be surprised how many people confuse House Units and the House they fight for as being one in the same.

[LastKhan]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Gotcha. You'd be surprised how many people confuse House Units and the House they fight for as being one in the same.

Indeed. But im sure its not uncommon for a unit to hire them.

But in the idea im building on is that mercs have their way of doing things and the units under the factions / clan have their own.

[Alexander Steel]

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But im sure its not uncommon for a unit to hire them.

In the lore it would be really odd to have a House Unit directly hire a merc unit. Considering how much money a merc unit would cost to hire ((of any notable size)) and how little money an actual Col or the like makes....

House Units are very much part of a structured military. As such they have to follow military rules for ordering and acquiring products as well as asking up the chain of command for reinforcements and the like. They don't randomly decide who to attack, in fact they have even less freedom of choice than Merc Units as at least mercs can ((if they are willing to take less pay)) have their own Command structure and not have to follow the orders of locals and the like.

Really mercs would be hired by Nobles, The House Itself, and from time to time by Corporations.

[LastKhan]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

In the lore it would be really odd to have a House Unit directly hire a merc unit. Considering how much money a merc unit would cost to hire ((of any notable size)) and how little money an actual Col or the like makes....

House Units are very much part of a structured military. As such they have to follow military rules for ordering and acquiring products as well as asking up the chain of command for reinforcements and the like. They don't randomly decide who to attack, in fact they have even less freedom of choice than Merc Units as at least mercs can ((if they are willing to take less pay)) have their own Command structure and not have to follow the orders of locals and the like.

Really mercs would be hired by Nobles, The House Itself, and from time to time by Corporations.

I see. I know like the big merc names would definitely be on the Noble's hotline lists.

I was going with like a rag tag merc group thats starting out or small wanting to make a name for themselves. Or the unit on a planet with the need to make a final push or some strategic standings but not have the necessary units to do so would might reach out to them.

[Alexander Steel]

LastKhan, on 18 February 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

I see. I know like the big merc names would definitely be on the Noble's hotline lists.

I was going with like a rag tag merc group thats starting out or small wanting to make a name for themselves. Or the unit on a planet with the need to make a final push or some strategic standings but not have the necessary units to do so would might reach out to them.

Well you have to realize in battletech messages take awhile to transfer and travel time is basically roughly 4-5 days to leave a planet to get to your jumpship. You can then make 1 instant jump of 30 light years, then you are waiting 1 week to recharge, and then you can jump another 30 light years. Once you get to the planet, it's another 4-5 days to get down to the planet surface.

So there is a huge lag time that basically makes "operation to save unit X from being destroyed or to reinforce X place" impossible for anybody who doesn't have super high level authority like the First Prince of a nation or the top military commander. They can pay for fast recharges or have a line of Jump Ships ready to take them from system to the next before handing off the drop ships.

Keep in mind that when Theodore Kurita's SON was trapped behind Clan Lines and needing rescueing even he couldn't get units to save him, he had to have his Daughter ask Victor Steiner Davion to do it. Doh!

Anyway, that said even if a local commander wanted to hire a merc unit, all the merc units for hire are on Outreach. It wouldn't be the Unit Commander that would do the hiring, he might tell the Local Noble who ran the planet "I don't have enough troops to keep your city safe..." at which the Noble would gather up his money and send somebody to outreach to go hire a merc to supplement the forces. The VAST majority of Unit Commanders wouldn't have the funds or ability to hire mercs. Even small units.

Add on: And now for "What a twist!"

It would actually be more likely that a Merc unit would hire another Merc unit as supplemental forces ((giving them a part of the original contract as pay)) than it would be for an actual house unit to directly hire a merc unit to supplement their forces.

Just like you don't see the US 1st Infantry Division commander going.. "I don't think I have enough forces, I think I'll hire some black market snipers, a French tank division, and some Russian ex-Spetnaz guys to supplement us on our next deployment to Iraghastanibad."

If he needs more resources, he'll send the request up the chain of command and somebody who doesn't actually do field work will decide and appropriate the funding needing for whatever they decide to send down the chain to the commander. So most likely he'll end up with 2 extra M-16's, a broken bike chain, and 2 sticks of chewing gum.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 18 February 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[Fractis Zero]

Lore aside... I love the fact that a large group like Merc Star can do whatever they want and have a huge impact on CW. Isn't that the most amazing thing about CW, the fact that your unit can have an effect on the game? It is a big reason why I play CW. They may 'troll' a faction but that is the point... I know a lot of the larger Merc groups are looking for a good fight so they stir up the pot.

[LastKhan]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Well you have to realize in battletech messages take awhile to transfer and travel time is basically roughly 4-5 days to leave a planet to get to your jumpship. You can then make 1 instant jump of 30 light years, then you are waiting 1 week to recharge, and then you can jump another 30 light years. Once you get to the planet, it's another 4-5 days to get down to the planet surface.

So there is a huge lag time that basically makes "operation to save unit X from being destroyed or to reinforce X place" impossible for anybody who doesn't have super high level authority like the First Prince of a nation or the top military commander. They can pay for fast recharges or have a line of Jump Ships ready to take them from system to the next before handing off the drop ships.

Keep in mind that when Theodore Kurita's SON was trapped behind Clan Lines and needing rescuing even he couldn't get units to save him, he had to have his Daughter ask Victor Steiner Davion to do it. Doh!

Anyway, that said even if a local commander wanted to hire a merc unit, all the merc units for hire are on Outreach. It wouldn't be the Unit Commander that would do the hiring, he might tell the Local Noble who ran the planet "I don't have enough troops to keep your city safe..." at which the Noble would gather up his money and send somebody to outreach to go hire a merc to supplement the forces. The VAST majority of Unit Commanders wouldn't have the funds or ability to hire mercs. Even small units.

I was saying like there was mercs in the general area at the time, but i can also see the view point of a unit not being able to pay them since the majority of funds comes from their leaders. This is good, Im learning a bit more on how mercenaries function in this game's universe. So thank you for some knowledge good sir.

[Alexander Steel]

LastKhan, on 18 February 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

I was saying like there was mercs in the general area at the time, but i can also see the view point of a unit not being able to pay them since the majority of funds comes from their leaders. This is good, Im learning a bit more on how mercenaries function in this game's universe. So thank you for some knowledge good sir.

A merc unit wouldn't be on a planet unless it was already hired to be there by the people in charge of or invading the planet. Or for the very few mercs that have property, but they'll defend those planets anyway.

Here is an example of The Grey Death Legion, which started off as a ragtag band of mercs, and grew into a regiment, made part of the lore, had multiple books about them, and then were snuffed out during the Jihad.

http://www.sarna.net...ay_Death_Legion

Notice how they are always hired by Nobles, Houses, or Ruling Councils of Planets ((sometimes in exile)).

As much as Mercs are part of the lore, they actually have very few planets that will let a unit land on it unless they are under contract to a local lord, a lord who controls the sector of space, or the House itself.

Outreach, The old Merc Star, and maybe Solaris 7 with MASSIVE restrictions.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 18 February 2015 - 12:39 PM.

[AlphaToaster]

It looks to me like we should go with a Seasons format where the CW map resets after a Season.

Call it a 6 month cycle or something.

Can't change faction once you've selected the contract at the beginning of the season unless you are a Loyalist or Merc Corp/Lonewolf.

Grant full faction rewards for main faction units.

Grant 50% faction rewards for Loyalists and Merc Corp, however these groups can change alliances within their CW side after 30 day contracts. So a Clan Loyalist can take 30 days in Clan Wolf then change to Smoke Jag later. At the cost of 50% faction rewards. Same with Merc Corp, they can be Steiner for 30 days then change to Davion later.

What this would stop is units from going back and forth between Clan/IS which I think is a nice to have feature, but it breaks the spirit of CW.

Offer up seasonal rewards based on rank and performance. Make it so your seasonal score resets when you switch factions. So at the end of 6 months, based on how many seasonal points you or your unit has earned, you get rewards. Think of it like a 6 month long running challenge. Make the prizes worth it with some recognition on a leaderboard and people will not want to hop around but will be free too if they don't care about the rewards.

[LastKhan]

It would keep the game fresh for sure. Also better play every time since PGI would have more maps made by the start of the next season.

[CyclonerM]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Where do you get this idea from? It's certainly not from the lore. The commander of the 2nd Sword of Light, doesn't send somebody to Outreach to hire mercs to help his unit out. House units have *0* input in hiring mercs.

Now if you are trying to say that's how it should be....

Sooo..

You are trying to say that instead, a House goverment puts a poster on the wall of Outreach's recruitment halls and any mercenary unit, from lone wolves to big merc alliances just sign up for it without any kind of reviews, lets them fight wherever they want, even if that means creating troubles and tensions with its neighbouring factions, distrupting diplomacy, breaking alliances, sow distrust between friendly factions and units, cannot do anything about it and does even pay for all this good "service" with its citizens' public money.

And that would be following the lore, realistic or logic?

What is that goverment there for? It almost seems like the Dark Age. Then, i find more believable that the goverment trusts the local nobles with enough money and power to hire mercs and direct their operations, instead of mercs just coming, taking the money, doing their own thing and going back to an enemy faction..

A star empire spanning trough hundrends of star systems needs a solid central goverment, otherwise it would be wiser to give more power to local nobles i think. In MWO, House/Clan "goverments" are almost non-existant, so either we have a player-led faction government (i think it could work, but many do not , i see.. ) or the regular House/Clan units are given power to employ and locally manage merc units.

Btw, merc units would still have their command structure, but they would still follow the strategicv direction given by the employer. If the employer says "do not attack planet X, defend planet Y instead" a professional merc unit is expected to do just that; otherwise, the contract would be cut off and the unit could forget the money.

If we had an actual economy, merc units would be very worried about their unit economic balance.

Imagine if the only money that could go into the unit coffer was the pay for contracts, plus bonuses etc. and there were expenses like maintenance, MechWarriors' pay, fuel, actual R&R etc.

And if the unit breaks the contract or the employer rescinds it, the unit has a penalty time of 1-2 days before it can take a new contract, and in those days you still have to pay your expenses. You would rather keep your contracts, complete them successfully and get a new one as fast as you can , or you will not be able to sustain your unit .

[Alexander Steel]

I think it's pretty clear what I'm saying.

House Units don't hire Mercs. People who work for the House do, but they aren't the military branch who does that.

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Btw, merc units would still have their command structure, but they would still follow the strategicv direction given by the employer. If the employer says "do not attack planet X, defend planet Y instead" a professional merc unit is expected to do just that; otherwise, the contract would be cut off and the unit could forget the money.

It totally depends on what the terms of the contract state. FRR got screwed over by mercs when it was founded, because it assumed what you are saying, but didn't actually write any sort of command structure into the contracts. As such many units refused to fight or only defended the exact area that they were supposed to under the terms of the contract. IE "We will defend X planet, but we will not travel over to Y planet that is under attack.... because our contract only is for X planet Defense."

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A star empire spanning trough hundrends of star systems needs a solid central goverment, otherwise it would be wiser to give more power to local nobles i think.

Indeed this happened for a huge number of mercs. Look at the Grey Death Legion, their first few commands were working for local nobles and the like. However, Local Noble is not the same thing as "CO: The 2nd Sword of Light." It would be Dukes, or the like.

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What this would stop is units from going back and forth between Clan/IS which I think is a nice to have feature, but it breaks the spirit of CW.

PGI wants people to have the ability to flow between clan and IS because it means they can sell more mechs to people. The flow is a good thing for them.

[LastKhan]

That is something i might add to the RCG idea. A penalty for those groups who cut out early. thanks CylonerM.

Also gotta keep whats in lore separate from how the actual game works so its not to confusing if someone is talking about the game or battletech lore.

[CyclonerM]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

I think it's pretty clear what I'm saying.

House Units don't hire Mercs.

Just as much as House Goverments do not pay mercs to do their own thing

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It totally depends on what the terms of the contract state. FRR got screwed over by mercs when it was founded, because it assumed what you are saying, but didn't actually write any sort of command structure into the contracts. As such many units refused to fight or only defended the exact area that they were supposed to under the terms of the contract. IE "We will defend X planet, but we will not travel over to Y planet that is under attack.... because our contract only is for X planet Defense."

Good point! I guess they needed better lawyers , so they would have included a couple of more clauses in their contracts , something like the KungsArme being able to redeploy the mercs as the situation required.

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Indeed this happened for a huge number of mercs. Look at the Grey Death Legion, their first few commands were working for local nobles and the like. However, Local Noble is not the same thing as "CO: The 2nd Sword of Light." It would be Dukes, or the like.

II know. This is why i think we need players to be able to become Dukes and nobles when they reach the max loyalty level (basically, the Prince/Coordinator etc. would give a nobiliar title to veteran officers as a reward for their loyalty). They would be in charge of hiring merc units, reviewing applying units and accepting/refusing their offers. Economy should play a big factor here as well, as money should not be infinite and it should not be possible to hire more than X big merc units. A similar position for the Clans, too. Maybe Star Colonels with special duties, assigned to logistics and merc liason duties? It would be cool! #GameOfThronesInSpaceFTW

Edited by CyclonerM, 18 February 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[Alexander Steel]

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Just as much as House Goverments do not pay mercs to do their own thing

You can't "do your own thing" in this game. Each day there are only a few planets that are open for either attack or defend. That's very much like being hired by the military branch of a House Govt to assist military operations and only attack/defend the following world's. Keep in mind that House units don't get to do their own thing either in Battletech. They are ordered to go around and only attack or defend where the leaders of the house want them. In much the same way that Mercs are told with well written contracts.

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This is why i think we need players to be able to become Dukes and nobles when they reach the max loyalty level

Totally disagree. Awarding command to people who can play grind out tiers, is a poor idea. I'm glad that so far PGI has avoiding giving control over other players content to other players.

LastKhan, on 18 February 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

That is something i might add to the RCG idea. A penalty for those groups who cut out early. thanks CylonerM.

Also gotta keep whats in lore separate from how the actual game works so its not to confusing if someone is talking about the game or battletech lore.

Sure, things don't have to follow the lore, and the game should strive to make a better game, not make a better lore simulator, imho. That said, I only replied because I thought somebody was suggesting that their idea was supported by the lore when.... not so much.

[CyclonerM]

Alexander Steel, on 18 February 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

Sure, things don't have to follow the lore, and the game should strive to make a better game, not make a better lore simulator, imho. That said, I only replied because I thought somebody was suggesting that their idea was supported by the lore when.... not so much.

The problem is, for me, a better "lore simulator" IS a better game for me