1123 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Ripnfly, on 02 January 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

Varience in builds and styles is what keeps this game fun.

MECH WARRIOR ERPPCS BATTLES is really just not fun.

There's only 2 IS weapons effective at those ranges, and only one of them has concentrated damage. What did you really expect with Boreal Vault being 1 of 2 CW maps?

[zudukai]

i find it incredibly ironic that the Awesome is inferior to the Thunderbolt with PPC's, the i thought the point to the quirks were to being the lesser mechs in line with the more capable ones?

the awesome is the specific mech from all points of view that should be the epitome of PPC use.

[AlmightyAeng]

lsp, on 02 January 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

The thunderbolt is sooo goood, yeah right. Soo good at getting it's torso's blown off because it has terrible hitboxes. The only time I do good in one is when someone ignores me, which in that case it's your fault.

Why, yes, you've confirmed that you have bad luck in both of those Thunderbolts. And since the stats page ONLY captures public queue, here is opposed anecdotal evidence. Both samples are invalid in a balance discussion.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 02 January 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kaeb Odellas, on 02 January 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

The biggest advantage the TDR has over the AWS for PPCs its high-mounted hardpoints and better hitboxes. If you bring the TDR's numbers down to the Awesome's level, it would still be the superior PPC carrier.

while the hardpoint location IS huge, I would have to go out on a limb and say that the 25% vs 50% heat reduction are rather significant.

When combined with the hardpoints and overall toughness of the chassis compared to one another? It kinda speaks to exactly how out of whack it is.

Simply put, for the quirks to encourage er ppc boating on a mech designed to carry one, period, is the first mistake.

It's interesting (well, to me, anyhow) when I first saw the Pretty Baby quirks, they listed the cooldown in such a way that I mistook it that if you took one Large laser, you got 40 or 50% cooldown, but if you took 2, you only got 20-25%.

Perhaps taking such an approach to weapons that the mech was never meant to boat in the first place, would answer some of the issues, while making the "true" boats, like the AWS still have a place that overcomes their deficits. It would also be logical, that a mech not built around boating a certain weapon would do so less efficiently than one that does.

[verybad]

zudukai, on 02 January 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

i find it incredibly ironic that the Awesome is inferior to the Thunderbolt with PPC's, the i thought the point to the quirks were to being the lesser mechs in line with the more capable ones?

the awesome is the specific mech from all points of view that should be the epitome of PPC use.

Can't argue that. The Awesome should be THE goto mech for hot PPC action.

[Bishop Steiner]

lsp, on 02 January 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

The thunderbolt is sooo goood, yeah right. Soo good at getting it's torso's blown off because it has terrible hitboxes. The only time I do good in one is when someone ignores me, which in that case it's your fault.

Yes, because individual player performance is of course the measuring stick by which all good balance is made.

[Degalus]

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

Ok. Here.

Instead of adding chassis restrictions into the one mode that was build around the concept of NOT having them, how about we take the one hideously overquirked chassis variant down a peg so that it's no longer an uber mech (for the mode that places you at long range and forces you to come from 1 of 3 easily pre-determined directions, yay map design) that calls out to people so strongly that they take 12 of them at a time and giggle at their easy wins?

So, I'm 100% against your idea of chassis restriction. I like the freedom we currently have. There's my response.

I like the Freedom also but its like in the old times. (pre restrictions) Mechboating is a Problem.
Srly i can understand you. I dont have a clue how to save the freedom and balance it out.
Sure a "little" Nerf would help but wouldnt stop the abuse of mechboating.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghost Badger, on 02 January 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Why, yes, you've confirmed that you have bad luck in both of those Thunderbolts. And since the stats page ONLY captures public queue, here is opposed anecdotal evidence. Both samples are invalid in a balance discussion.

Well, maybe he is just helping us to see that indeed yes, maybe balance should only be done on input form the 1337...because...well, ya know?

[verybad]

I like the idea of quirks that bonus non boated weapons more for some mechs (TDR) and on others (Awesome) mroe on boated weapons.

[EvilCow]

Threads like this are UNEXPECTED effect of this great quirks idea...

[AlmightyAeng]

Kaeb Odellas, on 02 January 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

If you take away all of the heat reduction, it would be completely useless with ERPPCs. IS ERPPCs are just too hot to be useful without heat quirks.

You misunderstand me. I'm still advocating what I said in my earlier post. Tone it down, not remove it entirely. It's too high.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 02 January 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

+1 for reducing 9s heat quirk from 25/25 to 20/20.

I run mine with 2x ERPPCs and 3xSPL, double AMS, and STD 300. I'd still manage just fine with that drop, and it would induce people to lower the PPC count from 3 to 2.

That said, /Removing/ the TBOLT from the ER PPC picture won't change the PPC spam in CW. Its a tactic that works, to an extent, and teams will find other ways of delivering it.

as long as they are considerably less efficient ways, that is fine. And they are. There is a reason after Quirkening 1.0 you didn't see masses of AWS spamming the skies.

[verybad]

EvilCow, on 02 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Threads like this are UNEXPECTED effect of this great quirks idea...

Overall quirks ARE a great thing, Rome wasn't built in a day however.

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Well, maybe he is just helping us to see that indeed yes, maybe balance should only be done on input form the 1337...because...well, ya know?

When you discuss balance you assume all pilots are equal, otherwise you're working with 2 disparate variables.

Sidenote: My 5SS is a hipster thunderbolt. Those first 40 games were still in a Thunderwub...but before it had any MPL quirks

[YueFei]

Glory, on 02 January 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

Oversimplify? It really is that simple. There's always a best thing, there always will be a best thing. The people who win will be the people who use the best thing the best way.

That's untrue.

For example, there is no dominant move in Rock/Paper/Scissors.

Fighting games are replete with examples of attack / remedy / counter-remedy, and so on. It's not just a matter of mashing the same attack button over and over again.

Ideally a game should have a set of best things, designed such that there is always a counter to a particular build/tactic other than using the exact same build/tactic and just trying to execute it better.

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 02 January 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Sized hardpoints are not a cure all but would be welcome.

They will still just open up new mechs and new meta builds, be it massed medium lasers, or Large lasers etc etc

that is true, though I believe from looking at all the variants all these years that the boating and roles would then be able to be balanced better than now with the quirks. That said, we are well past ever seeing it happen. I only even touched on it because it was brought up, and because it would have vastly changed the complexion of the idea of role warfare, and thus the current state of the game.

Kaeb Odellas, on 02 January 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

If you take away all of the heat reduction, it would be completely useless with ERPPCs. IS ERPPCs are just too hot to be useful without heat quirks.

or..it would be useless at baoting them...something it shouldn't do so well any dang ways.

[Kensaisama]

EvilCow, on 02 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Threads like this are UNEXPECTED effect of this great quirks idea...

Oh now you're just being evil, oh wait you are

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

as long as they are considerably less efficient ways, that is fine. And they are. There is a reason after Quirkening 1.0 you didn't see masses of AWS spamming the skies.

HAH. You just want the Vindicator to become the premier CW defensive mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

verybad, on 02 January 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

Rather than people being testy with each other over whats not a big thing overall, they should think about solutions.

excuse me......you must be new here.......

And, I would point out I have been pointing out multiple solutions, as have others. The issue seems to be those who don't want their precious 9S touched.

zudukai, on 02 January 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

i find it incredibly ironic that the Awesome is inferior to the Thunderbolt with PPC's, the i thought the point to the quirks were to being the lesser mechs in line with the more capable ones?

the awesome is the specific mech from all points of view that should be the epitome of PPC use.

Also ironic, is that another PPC Mech in the Thuds same weight bracket, the K2, built around a pair of PPCs, is inferior at the Lightning game than one that had an ER PPC slapped on as part of a field refit kit.

[AlmightyAeng]

YueFei, on 02 January 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

That's untrue.

For example, there is no dominant move in Rock/Paper/Scissors.

Fighting games are replete with examples of attack / remedy / counter-remedy, and so on. It's not just a matter of mashing the same attack button over and over again.

Ideally a game should have a set of best things, designed such that there is always a counter to a particular build/tactic other than using the exact same build/tactic and just trying to execute it better.

The problem is that in PGI the rock weighs 30 pounds and is being swung at the end of a rope, the scissors are blunt and the paper is tissue.

You have the appearance of three viable options...but they aren't balanced that way. So, the people who prosper will use the rock to the best of their ability, a few will sharpen the scissors, and everyone will laugh at the people who play paper.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 02 January 2015 - 11:16 AM.