472 replies to this topic

[Tiger 6]

BlakeAteIt, on 05 January 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Let EVERYONE have something like this.

Dunno about everyone, but certainly the lower populated factions - do you really want multiple worlds getting zerged by Davion pubbies ???

[BlakeAteIt]

That would be pretty fun, I think. I also think some people would absolutely hate that it's not "how the books did it".

If we're going to start with the clans wherever, I'd prefer them to start out in a circle around Terra. It would be overly hard on Davion for the first week or so, but after that I think it would be pretty great.

[Alexander Steel]

Keep in mind that the population of Houses aren't fixed. They can be pretty fluid so balancing based off population will be a constantly frustrating game of chasing ones tail. I mean if suddenly everybody leaves Davion to join Liao do you balance by moving one of the clans over to attack the Liao Marik border as well?

[Grynos]

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Keep in mind that the population of Houses aren't fixed. They can be pretty fluid so balancing based off population will be a constantly frustrating game of chasing ones tail. I mean if suddenly everybody leaves Davion to join Liao do you balance by moving one of the clans over to attack the Liao Marik border as well?

That is why in my post above I gave specific locations to where they should be placed . That way if everyon did leave Davion to join Liao , Liao would still have to deal with a clan. But because there are people who love the lore, they will stay with Davion. Like I said before every IS faction should have to deal with the clans.

[Alexander Steel]

I wouldn't put clans on borders I'd activate the next two clans and have each house have a clan of it's own.

Of course I have to admit I do like heading over to the clan forums and watching how outraged the clan players get when one of the other clans attacks them.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 05 January 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Grynos]

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

I wouldn't put clans on borders I'd activate the next two clans and have each house have a clan of it's own.

Of course I have to admit I do like heading over to the clan forums and watching how outraged the clan players get when one of the other clans attacks them.

While a good idea, the are a few potential problems with that. The big thing is there the population to generate those two new clans?? At the current time there isn't. The other is that introducing two new clans is a long process from a developers standpoint, where it might be relatively easier to make the moves on the map with the current clans.

[Repasy Cooper]

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

I wouldn't put clans on borders I'd activate the next two clans and have each house have a clan of it's own.

Of course I have to admit I do like heading over to the clan forums and watching how outraged the clan players get when one of the other clans attacks them.

Yea it gets pretty heated up in there... I'm guilty of starting a thread to stop Wolves from attacking Ghost Bear territory when there wasn't anyone defending our system.

Generally, I think it's a result of lots of ppl being really into all the Battletech lore & history. The Clans did always have their batchalls & skirmishes for resources, but there wasn't really any intense clan-clan conflict from the start of Operation Revival until the Refusal War of '57. They're just trying to keep the Clans in line and in their own battle corridors because, ultimately, they want to see Community Warfare play out much like Operation Revival did in Battletech universe.

I agree with Grynos on the other point. I'd love to see the other invading clans in on the action. Personally, I'm a fan of Clan Snow Raven, and I'd love to see them in too (even though they're not really present until '67). But MWO doesn't have enough popularity YET to justify adding 2 more factions. PGI has to be careful how they address this issue, because adding 2 more factions into the mix could seriously divide some existing factions, while leaving others intact to become powerhouse factions, and then CW will become way too imbalance... then ppl start to lose interest... some ppl are already starting to lose interest in light of recent exploitation of game mechanics, quirk system, etc. PGI's gotta deal with those issues before they even consider this one, imo.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Repasy, on 05 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

But MWO doesn't have enough popularity YET to justify adding 2 more factions.

Yup. I'd really like for the major periphery states to be available, but ain't gonna happen until all the available planets are sitting at 60+ pilots all the time. Adding even one more faction would make CW wait times that much worse.

[Alexander Steel]

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The Clans did always have their batchalls & skirmishes for resources, but there wasn't really any intense clan-clan conflict from the start of Operation Revival until the Refusal War of '57.

Oddly enough that's when the dirty hot IS on IS action started.

[Grynos]

The issues with gameplay are going to have to be solved first. After that is done, they need to be able to draw in more people into wanting to play CW , without the major hassles that are attributed to it currently. Most people today do not want to wait to play games, that is just the way it is. So if they streamline the queue process it might help with the overall population playing CW.

[MischiefSC]

1. Liao doesn't have the numbers. Be honest - when was the last time you saw the Capellan front go 15 wins down and be 60+/60+? Doesn't happen. In fact 60+/60+ doesn't happen.

2. Having the Clans encircle the Inner Sphere is theoretically possible but will require a map reset. I like the idea on concept, I just think it's going to be a harder sell.

3. I'm of the opinion that CSJ should have the same option, being in the same situation. It seems fair and reasonable.

4. Davion and Marik have the biggest Loyalist populations of any IS faction. By a big stretch. While populations are fluid, those two are always going to have a solid baseline. Being stuck between them with no other options makes Liao a poor choice to start with - which functionally makes 1 whole faction screwed out of the gate. That's flat out bad design.

5. We don't have the player population in CW to open 2 more factions. I like that idea as well; however we spent hours last night without any possible fights on any borders but turret stomps already. Even if we did have the population however it leaves Liao in the worst map starting position without any offset.

6. Factions need quirks, just like mechs do. Liao needs some quirks. The goal is not to make all factions unable to lose - that's exactly what I want to avoid. It is however to let everyone at least *start* on reasonably even footing; at that point the winners will go win. For Federated Suns to wipe out Liao is not something to brag about and currently the map design doesn't even give them an option not to.

[Splitpin]

MischiefSC, on 05 January 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

3. I'm of the opinion that CSJ should have the same option, being in the same situation. It seems fair and reasonable.

You don't see CSJ whining though. A small faction can be, and in the case of CSJ is a good thing. All the units are cooperative and unified on our the strategic imperatives. There's also another plus to being outnumbered, no wait time.

[BlakeAteIt]

MischiefSC, on 05 January 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

6. Factions need quirks, just like mechs do. Liao needs some quirks. The goal is not to make all factions unable to lose - that's exactly what I want to avoid. It is however to let everyone at least *start* on reasonably even footing; at that point the winners will go win. For Federated Suns to wipe out Liao is not something to brag about and currently the map design doesn't even give them an option not to.

I like this idea. Give each faction an in-game quirk and an out of game quirk, and I am sold.

[StillRadioactive]

BlakeAteIt, on 05 January 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

I like this idea. Give each faction an in-game quirk and an out of game quirk, and I am sold.

I thought Liao already had an out-of-game quirk...

[Tiger 6]

I'm just going to summarize my thoughts before I turn in for the night (stupid work in the morning again, just as I got used to the 2 weeks vacation, and being able to play MWO until 5am ).

MischiefSC, on 05 January 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

1. Liao doesn't have the numbers. Be honest - when was the last time you saw the Capellan front go 15 wins down and be 60+/60+? Doesn't happen. In fact 60+/60+ doesn't happen.

Population numbers are the issue.
(That and the current "last 60 mins of action in the NA timezone decides the outcome of the cycle regardless of what happened before hand" - but there's another thread about that...)

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2. Having the Clans encircle the Inner Sphere is theoretically possible but will require a map reset. I like the idea on concept, I just think it's going to be a harder sell.

That sounds like an act of desperation that will have people throwing rocks at PGI quicker and harder than at any point in history

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3. I'm of the opinion that CSJ should have the same option, being in the same situation. It seems fair and reasonable.

It'll be easier to code a one size fits all solution, just need to not allow a way for the bigger factions to use their numbers to crush the smaller ones.

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4. Davion and Marik have the biggest Loyalist populations of any IS faction. By a big stretch. While populations are fluid, those two are always going to have a solid baseline. Being stuck between them with no other options makes Liao a poor choice to start with - which functionally makes 1 whole faction screwed out of the gate. That's flat out bad design.

Blame FASA for that one - this might just be the only thing that you'll not be able to pin on PGI

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5. We don't have the player population in CW to open 2 more factions. I like that idea as well; however we spent hours last night without any possible fights on any borders but turret stomps already. Even if we did have the population however it leaves Liao in the worst map starting position without any offset.

I suspect that the Taurian Concordat and Magistracy of Canopus (sp?) are not going to be popular even if we had the numbers, and see number (2) for the nerd rage if any other factions are relocated. Not seeing a viable option for the current game as it stands, other than to open up more worlds for the smaller faction to attack or 'raid'.

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6. Factions need quirks, just like mechs do. Liao needs some quirks. The goal is not to make all factions unable to lose - that's exactly what I want to avoid. It is however to let everyone at least *start* on reasonably even footing; at that point the winners will go win. For Federated Suns to wipe out Liao is not something to brag about and currently the map design doesn't even give them an option not to.

I think the current financial incentives are having an effect, but as noted earlier the 'Big Boys' want to fight each other more than they want to make a ton of cash - lets face it, if you are a member of one of the competitive teams you probably have premium time running for private lobbies, and you likely already have a shed load of mechs. These guys are likely already rolling in cash, and they have little to spend it on currently.

Newbies, Casuals and Solo's on the other hand could always use a few more CBills - PGI needs to get these people in to the queues, but the current offering does not appeal to the guy who only has 1 mech of his own, no friends to group up with and only half an hour to play! He needs an alternative to waiting 20 mins (or more) for a game of "shove your face into a blender and throw the switch".

Let those folks play a game mode they understand, on a map that they know, in the few mechs they own, and make some money. Give them a reason to become invested in the idea of CW, and how the faction map can be affected by their actions. If they win the raid, they get extra faction bonuses. Just make the 'raid' mode a solo only game and the first 12 guys of each faction to click the *raid on planet 'X' defenders/attackers needed* pop up get the match - that should prevent people from sync dropping big groups.

/brain dump nite all!

Question - how likely is it that PGI will ever read this, when its buried in the faction chat...?

[Harathan]

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here too.

In CW it has to be possible, and OK, for Factions to both win AND lose, and aside from some minor tinkering by PGI regarding contract rewards, that result should be largely player driven.

Not everyone can win all the time. It really doesn't make a fun game in the long term when everyone realises they can't possibly lose.

[Lukestah]

TL:DR – hey, what about increasing the frequency of ceasefires to promote planet flips across different timezones?

Some of the points and arguments in this thread are really well thought out. As an Australian based player who selected Liao as a faction a long time ago, I came back to MWO after a long break to see what CW looks like.

For me the new maps and in-game mechanics are a great addition to the game. Features like the Dropships, gates, turrets, generators, make for a rejuvenated tactical game over the tired modes of assault, conquest and skirmish. At the tactical level CW has successfully introduced new and fun ways of playing the game. It can be improved and expanded with new maps and scenarios for attack and defence that can be released over time to keep the game fresh and evolving. I think introducing dropships to other game modes and revisiting the older / smaller maps would be easy wins for PGI.

At the strategic level CW is pretty dull and core mechanics in need of significant review and re-work.

I think everyone can agree that in MWO taking control of a planet should be based on the outcome of player-vs-player (pvp) matches and never player-vs-environment (pve). The weakness of the planet flipping mechanic is simply thrown into sharp relief by the size of a faction’s active player population size and time zone distribution in the lead up to the ceasefire border adjustment. It would be interesting to see some official stats on faction size and time zone distribution.

The IS vs Clan CW conflict will always draw the larger, more competitive teams and players. Whereas IS vs IS CW will always draw the various faction fan boys. New players and solo players may be interested in CW through the click bait "Planet X needs Defenders!" pop-ups. Introducing a clan on every IS faction border for game play balance may distribute larger organised groups across the IS. However this will cause outcry from players who are into the lore of the mech warrior universe. This solution has it merits but can be described as a sledge hammer solution for the walnut of the poor planet flipping mechanics.

Playing this game after work or for a couple of hours on a Saturday or Sunday in an Australian timezone means I mostly play well outside NA peak times. CW is pretty much dead for most factions when I am online. Seeing any CW gains evaporate just before ceasefire is disheartening. I am sure this is the same for other players in non-NA time zones.

A simple short term solution to the planet mechanic may be changing the cease fire border adjustment period to be more frequent. Attacking and defending a single planet per border with multiple ceasefire periods in a 24-hour period, say every 8-hours, may allow for players in all time zones to effect change on CW strategic map.

Major offensives and counter offensives would result as over the course of a day faction population and active players ebbs and flows. This raises the possibility for a blitz krieg scenario for a faction to make major inroads into other faction’s space. I am sure the global reach and organisation of some of the Davion groups may see the demise of Liao much quicker under this model

I am sure the clans would have a better recreation of the shock to the IS their invasion was from the books / lore of the game.

If faction capitals cannot fall then factions can never be wiped off the map entirely. So in the next couple of weeks Liao will become a few planets in a pocket of green space surrounded by Davion yellow. So be it, CW is in beta after all.

[MischiefSC]

BlakeAteIt, on 05 January 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

I like this idea. Give each faction an in-game quirk and an out of game quirk, and I am sold.

Exactly. This gives people a reason to play different factions than just cbills or logos. The Liao faction quirk needs to involve opening different fronts, due to crap map location. Davion might get LP bonuses for belonging to a House unit (organized military stuff) and, well, they don't need a big positive quirk.

Stuff like that.

Need a way to dig Liao out of their map position though or it's not going to matter.

[Grynos]

Harathan, on 05 January 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here too.

In CW it has to be possible, and OK, for Factions to both win AND lose, and aside from some minor tinkering by PGI regarding contract rewards, that result should be largely player driven.

Not everyone can win all the time. It really doesn't make a fun game in the long term when everyone realises they can't possibly lose.

I understand what you mean, but what happens to CW if whole factions get eliminated or better yet if whole factions decide that it is not worth it to fight further compounding the issue at hand now.? Will all the lore people suddenly think it is ok for some factions to be around but others completely gone?? I mean if Liao is gone, then smoke jaguar and the FRR soon fold, what happens then?? How does the lore stand up at that point??? There are ways that PGI can handle this situation, some of them extreme like setting player limits on factions/clans but people will cry bloody murder if they did so. Funny how people so worried about the lore, only care about the lore when it benefits them.

[Grynos]

Lukestah, on 05 January 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

TL:DR – hey, what about increasing the frequency of ceasefires to promote planet flips across different timezones?

Some of the points and arguments in this thread are really well thought out. As an Australian based player who selected Liao as a faction a long time ago, I came back to MWO after a long break to see what CW looks like.

For me the new maps and in-game mechanics are a great addition to the game. Features like the Dropships, gates, turrets, generators, make for a rejuvenated tactical game over the tired modes of assault, conquest and skirmish. At the tactical level CW has successfully introduced new and fun ways of playing the game. It can be improved and expanded with new maps and scenarios for attack and defence that can be released over time to keep the game fresh and evolving. I think introducing dropships to other game modes and revisiting the older / smaller maps would be easy wins for PGI.

At the strategic level CW is pretty dull and core mechanics in need of significant review and re-work.

I think everyone can agree that in MWO taking control of a planet should be based on the outcome of player-vs-player (pvp) matches and never player-vs-environment (pve). The weakness of the planet flipping mechanic is simply thrown into sharp relief by the size of a faction’s active player population size and time zone distribution in the lead up to the ceasefire border adjustment. It would be interesting to see some official stats on faction size and time zone distribution.

The IS vs Clan CW conflict will always draw the larger, more competitive teams and players. Whereas IS vs IS CW will always draw the various faction fan boys. New players and solo players may be interested in CW through the click bait "Planet X needs Defenders!" pop-ups. Introducing a clan on every IS faction border for game play balance may distribute larger organised groups across the IS. However this will cause outcry from players who are into the lore of the mech warrior universe.

If faction capitals cannot fall then factions can never be wiped off the map entirely. So in the next couple of weeks Liao will become a few planets in a pocket of green space surrounded by Davion yellow. So be it, CW is in beta after all.

But what happens then. That will give those small factions/clans nothing to do eventually draining them of what small player base they have, making it less attractive to go there. So once Davion does that to Liao , then they move onto Marik , when they get finished with Marik , onto DC, etc. At that point what would it stop and at what point would it be a detriment to CW as a whole.

Edited by Grynos, 05 January 2015 - 07:16 PM.