472 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Grynos, on 06 January 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

So let me try to figure this out. You are saying that there needs to be multiple planets to attack at once along a border?? So that factions that have a higher population have more of an edge than they currently do??

Or, I'm saying that allowing the enemy with FEWER numbers to go attack another planet to pull forces from a main thrust might have some tactical value.

For the longest time Davion was doing that to Kurita, Marik, and Liao: When ever one of you guys would start getting organized against one planet to try and employ the 'numerical advantage' scenario we're all discussing here, we'd send a couple of 12 mans to a totally different planet to pull some of your 12 man teams away from the primary target.

It's a tactic that works well when your side has numbers equaling or less than the enemy.

How can you hit an enemy where he 'aint' if the only option available is to ONLY hit them where they are?

The last few nights Davion hasn't had the people logging in, and it's showed with a loss of 2 planets and a gain of only 1. We were short a few 12 man teams, allowing Liao, Marik, and Kurita to have more full 12 mans than us, and it showed. BUT, had we been able to go and start sniping at another planet you people weren't currently paying attention to we could have pulled a few 12 mans from the planets you were intent on flooding with numbers and maybe setup a stalemate.

Maxwell Albritten, on 06 January 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

Of course they would think that. Davions are a self-entitled bunch. For example, it's not enough that they have their own subforum to post in, but they have to claim this one as well.

Because you Fedrats are a dense bunch: that last part was a subtle hint to GTFO. Seriously.

All your unreasonable histrionics aside, what non 'cry-baby' solution have you offered?

[Grynos]

Dimento Graven, on 06 January 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

I don't think so.

Plus what's the difference of 60 vs 240 spread across 3 planets as opposed to an entire border of them? It would seem to me the current situation of "less planets" to attack results in the side with superior numbers having complete advantage. If the entire border was open, the side with fewer numbers could start pushing in where the enemy isn't and spread them out, plus it would eliminate situations like along the Liao border where there is this ONE planet that hasn't been in play for quite some time, sitting in the middle of the Davion border.

Sorry but no. What it would do would give the higher population, a way to swamp the lower population factions. I'll give you an example. Liao has 36 players fighting the Davion border ( not uncommon for Liao , but sometimes at night only 24 ) . Davion has 60 say fighting the Liao border. If each Liao / Davion group fought each other, that leaves two Davion groups to ghost cap for the whole night. That means instead of only losing one planet Liao would lose two every time this happened.

You will never get the Turrets in ghost drops to be hard enough for the enemy team. They will always be able to eventually be figured out.

[Alexander Steel]

I going to go again with the idea that if your faction can't play the meta game of recruit/convince people to join your side, so badly that you can only field 24 people total in prime time... it's a sign your faction should die out.

[Grynos]

Dimento Graven, on 06 January 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

Or, I'm saying that allowing the enemy with FEWER numbers to go attack another planet to pull forces from a main thrust might have some tactical value.

For the longest time Davion was doing that to Kurita, Marik, and Liao: When ever one of you guys would start getting organized against one planet to try and employ the 'numerical advantage' scenario we're all discussing here, we'd send a couple of 12 mans to a totally different planet to pull some of your 12 man teams away from the primary target.

It's a tactic that works well when your side has numbers equaling or less than the enemy.

How can you hit an enemy where he 'aint' if the only option available is to ONLY hit them where they are?


The last few nights Davion hasn't had the people logging in, and it's showed with a loss of 2 planets and a gain of only 1. We were short a few 12 man teams, allowing Liao, Marik, and Kurita to have more full 12 mans than us, and it showed. BUT, had we been able to go and start sniping at another planet you people weren't currently paying attention to we could have pulled a few 12 mans from the planets you were intent on flooding with numbers and maybe setup a stalemate.

So because YOUR population was lower than normal, and essentially more EQUAL to the rest of the other factions, Davion struggled? Sounds like you just should have won more of your matches to be honest.

Alexander Steel, on 06 January 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

I going to go again with the idea that if your faction can't play the meta game of recruit/convince people to join your side, so badly that you can only field 24 people total in prime time... it's a sign your faction should die out.

Yet for two nights we have taken planets and lost none.. Very interesting.

[Dimento Graven]

Grynos, on 06 January 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

Sorry but no. What it would do would give the higher population, a way to swamp the lower population factions. I'll give you an example. Liao has 36 players fighting the Davion border ( not uncommon for Liao , but sometimes at night only 24 ) . Davion has 60 say fighting the Liao border. If each Liao / Davion group fought each other, that leaves two Davion groups to ghost cap for the whole night. That means instead of only losing one planet Liao would lose two every time this happened.

But that's the whole problem, with limited options available, the 24/36 players on the Liao side HAVE to fight the enemy where he's strongest. There is no, send ONE team further down the border to start capturing another planet, forcing Davion pull one or more teams from their main thrust down.

At worst you'd have 5 Davion teams spread out on 5 undefended Liao worlds, and 3 Liao teams spread out on 3 undefended Davion worlds.

Quote

You will never get the Turrets in ghost drops to be hard enough for the enemy team. They will always be able to eventually be figured out.

The point of increasing the turret difficulty is NOT to make it impossible to win, but to make the battle go from a 10 minute wait, and 5 minute dash and destroy mission to the generators, to a 10 minute wait and 30 minute slog to the generators.

That way, at the very least, an enemy team is tied up for 40 minutes allowing the numerically inferior team potentially more runs per night.

[Kjudoon]

Alexander Steel, on 05 January 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Ah you want a game that no matter how bad one team plays it can never "lose".

It's a good question, but of course, I expected the response you instantly got over it.

Let's ask it this way: Would you be happy if everyone turned on Davion and exterminated that faction? Any faction that you find favorite, is anyone comfortable with it being exterminated.

That's the rub IMHO.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Dimento Graven, on 06 January 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

All your unreasonable histrionics aside, what non 'cry-baby' solution have you offered?

Right now I'm too busy enjoying that complete change of heart you Davions have gone through in just two days! At this point I'm willing to consider it "working as intended" because it warms my heart so.

[Dimento Graven]

Kjudoon, on 06 January 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

It's a good question, but of course, I expected the response you instantly got over it.

Let's ask it this way: Would you be happy if everyone turned on Davion and exterminated that faction? Any faction that you find favorite, is anyone comfortable with it being exterminated.

That's the rub IMHO.

Actually that's kind of what happened the past few nights... Kurita decided to ignore the clans (or has made some deal with them), and as long as Liao doesn't piss of Marik, Marik can focus on the small border they share with Davion, or go do turret runs on Steiner worlds while Steiner tries to focus on clans.

Liao only exists because Marik hasn't really fought against you all that much, but it's only a matter of time. If Davion and Marik decide to end the shrill whininess coming from Liao then you'll be nothing but a smear.

[Saiphas Cain]

I think Radioactive MEME'd this right on the nose. Literally the only reason APOC is with Laio at the moment is the paycheck. Once our contract is up we'll be looking at the current state of bonuses and go where the money is which, if Laio drops recompense at all, will only exacerbate the problem. I'm not saying we're the only unit here ( not by a long shot ), or even the most effective but that we, like some, are directly motivated by C-Bills.

[Dimento Graven]

Maxwell Albritten, on 06 January 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Right now I'm too busy enjoying that complete change of heart you Davions have gone through in just two days! At this point I'm willing to consider it "working as intended" because it warms my heart so.

Well, you're [someone I disagree with]. Not all of us ever thought this was 'working as intended' or believed that the game would continue to function as it currently is.

OBVIOUSLY there will be some changes, PGI has said as much.

But YOU my friend have taken someone who STARTED OUT agreeing with you, that something needed to be done, and vitrioled him right into the opposite camp.

[redacted] IT IS working AS INTENDED and no changes are necessary.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 06 January 2015 - 04:34 PM.
Language/insults

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

Yet for two nights we have taken planets and lost none.. Very interesting.

So you have nothing to complain about?

Or if the population of CW is so low that everybody can only field such small numbers, that's a depressing sign.

[Grynos]

Dimento Graven, on 06 January 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

You're an idiot and about to make it to my forum ignore list. Actually Davion had LESS numbers than all the other factions combined, not equal.

It just proves that having less numbers than your combined enemy makes things challenging.

Your incessant, shrill whining on the matter is convincing me it was stupid to agree with you that something needed to be done to affect the game so that numeric superiority wasn't the ONE SURE method of winning a territory.

Screw it, as far as you and I are concerned, the game is perfect as is, and the only reason Liao is losing because a majority of their pilots suck balls and probably should just uninstall this game and go play Team Fortress... The only way Liao has ANY chance at all is if Marik and Kurita helps them by pulling Davion forces away from Liao planets.

So when the numbers for the " good guys " have dropped so that they cannot field enough to hold on to their planets , then it is an issue. Welcome to the wonderful world of what it feels like to be Liao.

Yes we have Marik, and DC to thank in helping with the combined efforts.
I have never said the game was perfect.
Lastly... are you mad bro???
Cause last time I checked this was a Liao Forum.

[Alexander Steel]

Kjudoon, on 06 January 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

It's a good question, but of course, I expected the response you instantly got over it.

Let's ask it this way: Would you be happy if everyone turned on Davion and exterminated that faction? Any faction that you find favorite, is anyone comfortable with it being exterminated.

That's the rub IMHO.

Let me answer this two ways. Would I be happy as a fan of the Davion Side? No. Would I be happy as a fan of MWO that it could happen? Yes. Do I think it's a good idea. Completely. I think it would be cool as hell if CW ran for say 4 months and at the end of that time 1 faction was all that was left and then they restarted the map back to 3048-3050. Sort of like how a Sports seasons tends to have 1 winner at the end, and the next year everything is reset and you get to try over again. Sure 30 or so teams end up not winning, but the fact that one wins is cool. Which is why I hated the College Football Bowl system.

I'm not a fan when my teams in any game lose, but I'm glad they can lose. If you can't lose, you can't really win either. Games that nobody loses and nobody wins, are boring to me.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 06 January 2015 - 08:35 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Dimento Graven, on 06 January 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Actually that's kind of what happened the past few nights... Kurita decided to ignore the clans (or has made some deal with them), and as long as Liao doesn't piss of Marik, Marik can focus on the small border they share with Davion, or go do turret runs on Steiner worlds while Steiner tries to focus on clans.

Liao only exists because Marik hasn't really fought against you all that much, but it's only a matter of time. If Davion and Marik decide to end the shrill whininess coming from Liao then you'll be nothing but a smear.

Stay classy man. Just stay classy.

But to respond to your answer, If you are desiring special protection for your favorite clan/faction, why should it not be extended to all of them?

[Grynos]

Alexander Steel, on 06 January 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

So you have nothing to complain about?

Or if the population of CW is so low that everybody can only field such small numbers, that's a depressing sign.

I will always have things to debate about. I also think there are things that need to be done to make CW better for EVERYONE. But Dimento needs to relax a little bit, I gave him the reasons I thought that some of his suggestions would not work. As far as the population currently of CW. I think that the stocking event got a lot of people involved in it that otherwise would not have, once that ended some probably thought that CW wasn't worth the time especially if you are a solo queue player.

[Dimento Graven]

Grynos, on 06 January 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

So when the numbers for the "good guys" have dropped so that they cannot field enough to hold on to their planets , then it is an issue. Welcome to the wonderful world of what it feels like to be Liao.

Yes we have Marik, and DC to thank in helping with the combined efforts.
I have never said the game was perfect.
Lastly... are you mad bro???
Cause last time I checked this was a Liao Forum.

First, I had, until you convinced me otherwise, NEVER stated it wasn't a problem that one side could be flooded by sheer numbers.

Secondly, I'm glad you realize it's from the good graces of Kurita and Marik that you people exist at all.

If Davion and the Kuritans were to strike a cease fire so that Kurita could go focus on Clan worlds, and Marik decided they were tired of your uncontrolled 'pugs' trying to snipe Scarburough from them and work a deal with Davion to split Liao up the middle, you'd be gone.

In fact, I think this should be done if for no other reason than to test the game mechanics at its extreme. PGI needs to know what happens when a faction is completely eradicated and it seems to me that Liao is volunteering itself...

[Alexander Steel]

What's clear is that most people seem to think that whatever is good for their faction at the time is what is fair.

1. I think numbers should matter, but it shouldn't be the only thing that matters.

2. I think having teams that are really good should matter, but I don't think it's the only thing that should matter.

Take two extremes and you'll see why it's "bad" for either to be the only thing.

1. You have a faction that has the worst 20% of the player base, but because that's the largest amount they crush everybody.

2. You have a faction that consists of nothing but the 12 best players in the game, and they defeat the entire rest of the population because like some really bad Kung-Fu movie you can only fight people with equal numbers 12 on 12.

Both examples are bad but where the happy middle ground between them is... where that seems to be depend on which side of the Horde vs Elite divide you stand on. For a game that requires more than 12 people to fund it, I imagine they have to make it favor the horde side just because that's where the money is.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 06 January 2015 - 08:55 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Kjudoon, on 06 January 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Stay classy man. Just stay classy.

But to respond to your answer, If you are desiring special protection for your favorite clan/faction, why should it not be extended to all of them?

I'm not the one asking for 'special protection' though am I?

Ultimately, for the good of the game, for all factions/clans, the ease/speed of turret runs needs to be addressed. A turret run should require more than 15 minutes of effort to complete, 10 minutes of waiting 5 minutes of generator stomping.

Making a turret run require 30 minutes of effort to complete, plus the 10 minutes of waiting, and it almost triples the time required and addresses, to a large degree, the supposed 'greater numbers' issue that started this thread.

It's only the vitriolic shrill whining of Liaos that have almost completely put me off of this altogether.

How do you guys stand them, anyway?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 06 January 2015 - 08:47 AM.

[Harathan]

Kjudoon, on 06 January 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Would you be happy if everyone turned on Davion and exterminated that faction?

Yes.

To be clear: As a Davion fan, of course I don't want to see Davion wiped out. As a MWO fan, of course I want the possibility to wipe a faction completely off the map. Who wouldn't? It's not Warfare if nobody can lose, and it's not Community if the outcome isn't decided by the actions of the playerbase.

[Grynos]

Alexander Steel, on 06 January 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

What's clear is that most people seem to think that whatever is good for their faction at the time is what is fair.

1. I think numbers should matter, but it shouldn't be the only thing that matters.

2. I think having teams that are really good should matter, but I don't think it's the only thing that should matter.

Take two extremes and you'll see why it's "bad" for either to be the only thing.

1. You have a faction that has the worst 20% of the player base, but because that's the largest amount they crush everybody.

2. You have a faction that consists of nothing but the 12 best players in the game, and they defeat the entire rest of the population because like some really bad Kung-Fu movie you can only fight people with equal numbers 12 on 12.

Both examples are bad but where the happy middle ground between them is... well that seems to depend on which side of the Horde vs Elite divide you stand on. For a game that requires more than 12 people to fund it, I imagine they have to make the favor the horde side just because that's where the money is.

This is one of the reasons that for sometime now I have stated that ghost drops are not the issue. They happen we all know this, they need to be in the game we all know this. Ghost drops gives the higher populations a small advantage. Now last night I played in roughly 5 or 6 drops with my unit. Of the opponents we went up against , I believe we only lost once and that was to ACES . They beat us fair and square , they were better than us. The other groups that we faced were ok but still lost.
There are strong units in every faction.

Yes CW does need more participants overall. It needs to draw in the people who play the game that not only love the lore, but those like myself who like the competition aspect of it as well. Some of the problems hopefully PGI will work out, long queue times, getting solo players more involved, etc.