472 replies to this topic

[Pit]

From our perspective it really just looked like you guys were just doing what ever, marching down whatever lanes each individual pilot wanted. If you guys were legitimately trying then I'll concede my apologies, our units match just prior was against a legitimate group of tar pit Davions who just stood outside by the dropships and outside the gates the majority of the match. We were still feeling pretty salty.

I'd actually like to see Davion figure out the Attrition push. We've pretty much solved the Zerg rush defense.

Edited by Pit, 14 January 2015 - 08:19 AM.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Hans Davion, on 14 January 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Yall need to harden up. The IS would be better off without Liaos anway, whenever we get back to Davion space gona enjoy killing your turrets - or lrm teams, both as easy as eachother, except the turrets can hit sore spots

So, you're one of those bad players I keep hearing about. The kind that needs to outnumber their opponent 3:1 to see victory. At least you can admit it. Most DavRats can't.

[Faith McCarron]

Hans Davion, on 14 January 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Yall need to harden up. The IS would be better off without Liaos anway, whenever we get back to Davion space gona enjoy killing your turrets - or lrm teams, both as easy as eachother, except the turrets can hit sore spots

Your trolling would be a little better if you actually won some matches. Braggadocio only works when you have something to brag about.

Graven, why would I have a hard time saying it with a straight face? 4TCR doesn't zerg rush. When I drop with GS they don't zerg rush. The few times I have dropped with Gatekeepers they haven't zerged. Believe it or not, most Liao players don't want to zerg. You know why? Because attrition works and is more profitable as long as your skill level exceeds that of the enemy. Since we're fighting Davion, it almost always exceeds that of the enemy, unless in a total scrub drop.

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

It's really ridiculous that either side is trying to paint the entire other faction as a bunch of bad whatevers in a serious way, instead of the bs in-world way we all usually do. Stop pretending that you're legitimately a better person for picking a different color flag, and that everyone else is legitimately evil/bad/worse ect.

The core of this discussion is game mechanics that are bad and would be better off improved. Choosing to just piss off the other team as a part of a larger strategy is a totally legit thing to do in this gamestate, but pretending that you're on some sort of higher level than everyone else because you've rationalized it as "higher strategy" doesn't make the other team any less frustrated, and doesn't contribute to the long term health of the game.

What you're doing might be your effective higher strategy, but it's also specifically setting out to frustrate other players. Just own what you're doing. You're choosing to ruin other people's games in pursuit of your strategic objective. Considering how many people like to cry about "Goons ruining EVE/MWO for their own "fun"", the amount of congitive dissonance happening here when these same people are doing it in the name of their own "fun" is almost monumental.

I think MischiefSC is right, in that there is a lot of people screaming "TARPITTING", when it isn't actually happening. Playing a 30 minute game with actual shooting is totally normal, even if it's trying to tie up people. But there are actual teams and groups out there that are specifically avoiding fighting and playing the match objectives, and I've been in drops where they are specifically telling us in advance that is what they are doing.

This behavior is bad for the long term health of CW, a game mode that already not flush with players. Let's hope PGI comes up with a solution that can satisfy and promote the good mech gameplay. From what I read, just giving the defenders' commander an "OPEN THE GATES" button might be all you need to make everyone happy.

Edited by MadWOPR, 14 January 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Pit, on 14 January 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

From our perspective it really just looked like you guys were just doing what ever, marching down whatever lanes each individual pilot wanted. If you guys were legitimately trying then I'll concede my apologies, our units match just prior was against a legitimate group of tar pit Davions who just stood outside by the dropships and outside the gates the majority of the match. We were still feeling pretty salty.

I'd actually like to see Davion figure out the Attrition push. We've pretty much solved the Zerg rush defense.

Nope, on the Boreal map because the defender has a LONG view point looking DOWN on the gates, granting the defender more opportunity to focus fire from a long distance, AND also get to cover more quickly than the attacker, a non-zerg based tactic is going to have to be VERY different.

So on the face of it when you first encounter it, it's going to look odd.

However, if you look at what happened to the defender's positions as they attempted to respond, you'll start to see why certain things were done.

The reason it sucks up time on the Sulpher map is that there's 3 gates, and the defender's position is a LOT more dense with turrets, plus MORE choke points around the generators allows the defender to focus more fire at close ranges while the attacker can get strung out and start showing up in front of the defenders, and all the expletive turrets, one at a time.

I still say we were about to turn it around on the Sulpher map, a lot of the defenders were ready to fall apart with a hard stare and a stiff breeze...

Again, if you think it's taking too long, you can always be proactive and go out and attack the attackers...

EDIT: Oh yeah - When I get the video up on our first attempt of this particular attrition strategy, you'll note that on Boreal it still took us almost 27 minutes to win. We're definitely going to have to come up with an alternate version of this for Sulpher just due to how the gates are configured.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 January 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Pit]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Again, if you think it's taking too long, you can always be proactive and go out and attack the attackers...

This will never happen, attacker drop ship turrets are too strong to camp (which is necessary for IS vs Clan balance) and its too easy to get baited out of position for a full light rush. A defending team will never commit outside the gates unless the enemy is on its final wave

Edited by Pit, 14 January 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

I'll give you guys a tip, since I actually want legit fights. If you really want to run attrition on Sulfur, what you do is drop gamma gate and push in with the majority of your force and just camp the one spawn point closest to gamma. They have no choice but to fight you, and there is a firing position over there where you can hit Omega from. You need a decent light pilot or two to hop the gate at Alpha and run the backfield to drop the back generators. The key to attrition is you have to just threaten the objectives enough that the enemy must fight you, they cant afford to just turtle.

I have no problem throwing this out there to you guys, because attrition comes down to skill. If you outskill the opposing team, you win.

Pit, on 14 January 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

This will never happen, attacker drop ship turrets are too strong to camp (which is necessary for IS vs Clan balance) and its too easy to get baited out of position for a full light rush.

Yeah, the problem is if you do rush the attacker spawn, it's easy for the opposing team to suddenly flip the switch and get an easy victory.

[Dimento Graven]

Pit, on 14 January 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

This will never happen, attacker drop ship turrets are too strong to camp (which is necessary for IS vs Clan balance) and its too easy to get baited out of position for a full light rush. A defending team will never commit outside the gates unless the enemy is on its final wave

Nobody is talking about camping the drop points, besides I have battled against Mariks who came out and attacked on that map.

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

Yeah, the problem is if you do rush the attacker spawn, it's easy for the opposing team to suddenly flip the switch and get an easy victory.

It depends on the scale of your attack whether or not that's true.

[Chimerahawk]

PadreGrimm, on 03 January 2015 - 01:18 AM, said:

lol Sounds like my 12 year old. "Well she hit me first so I hit her back!" Davion logic at it's finest!

That logic actually is sound. I'm not just going to let you punch me

[Faith McCarron]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Nobody is talking about camping the drop points, besides I have battled against Mariks who came out and attacked on that map.

It depends on the scale of your attack whether or not that's true.

The problem is from the defenders perspective, you have to assume that the enemy has a modicum of skill, and thus pushing out is overextending yourself. You should only push out if you're fighting scrubs. If they didnt push out, you should take it as a compliment, they didn't think you were scrubs.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

The problem is from the defenders perspective, you have to assume that the enemy has a modicum of skill, and thus pushing out is overextending yourself. You should only push out if you're fighting scrubs. If they didnt push out, you should take it as a compliment, they didn't think you were scrubs.

Even in spite of how derogatory you're trying to make it sound, not necessarily true. You send out 4 to 6 fast movers, find the enemy, either harass them at a distance or swarm stragglers who are slow in grouping up with the rest of their forces, you can cause a lot of havoc and do significant damage to the attackers when they are attempting to organize and aren't necessarily expecting a fight at that moment.

If you are killed, at most 30 seconds later, you're back at base at the primary defense able to try and defend against any other enemy rush that might have occurred while you were out in the field.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 January 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Even in spite of how derogatory you're trying to make it sound, not necessarily true. You send out 4 to 6 fast movers, find the enemy, either harass them at a distance or swarm stragglers who are slow in grouping up with the rest of their forces, you can cause a lot of havoc and do significant damage to the attackers when they are attempting to organize and aren't necessarily expecting a fight at that moment.

If you are killed, at most 30 seconds later, you're back at base at the primary defense able to try and defend against any other enemy rush that might have occurred while you were out in the field.

Which doesn't solve the problem of tar pitting.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Which doesn't solve the problem of tar pitting.

Again, it depends on how successful you are.

Pretty much most of the posts from you Liao's has been implying that BECAUSE you are Liao you're better pilots than the Davs, yet at the same time, are complaining that you aren't able to kill them at your convenience.

Either you're better than the Davs and can afford to go out and kill them if they are 'tar pitting', OR, you're not actually better, just that defending is OH SO MUCH easier than attacking (which on that map it can be), and you prefer to hang back and wait.

Y'all need to be on the attack to gain squares, if you drop into a HOLD or DEFEND mode, rush out and kill the Davs as fast as you can so you can drop again and maybe get that attack/counter attack mode.

[MischiefSC]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

In other words, you just happened to decide to try a new and innovative tactic that just happened to involve hanging back and took a long time, so much time that it happened to take a full 30 minutes to try out. And it was purely coincidental that you happened to be trying it during the most critical CW time frame. And, well gee golly darn, there happened to be a Liao organized team on the other side. And I mean, how could you know that while you were trying this innovative new method with the Liao team tied up, there just happened to be some other Davion guys out there in groups, and dang-nabbit, those poor guys just had to drop against turrets. I'm sure they were just tearing their hair out that you guys were taking so long and they couldn't get a drop against real people and had to settle for shooting turrets. And now you have another planet that you have to worry about guarding after all that bother. I mean, it was hardly worth it, was it, chief?

Did you... did you not read what I said?

The drop started 4 minutes before ceasefire. So 4 minutes after it dropped us into the match ceasefire would have started. There was no possible way that match was going to end fast enough for either team to get back into queue. Given that I'd been sync-dropping with those guys for several matches and we had won every single one of them (prior one on attrition on Boreal) I'd have loved to get another win in.

Second, we were playing with LRMs and lights. Yeah actually. That does involve hanging back. After that we pushed in with fast mediums and heavies and some lights, cleared 2 gens and most of the 3rd and were actually ahead on kills. A bad tactical decision and 1 pug deciding to 'do his own thing' and we lost the kills advantage and were down to mostly assault mechs for the last 2 waves.

So, again. What you're doing is trying to assign some cunning plan to regular events. There was never going to be an option for either of us to have another drop before ceasefire. Also there are tactical options other than zerg heavy zerg heavy or zerg zerg heavy heavy. With a solid team (which they were) you can just do a steady roll for attrition, win and get paid a crap ton.

Your attempts at sarcasm and sweeping assumptions about what other people are trying to do are misplaced. Don't take this the wrong way but there are not any Liao teams that are so good that we have to try and 'slow them down'. I've won and lost against every group in Liao and certainly won more than lost. That at one point in this one game one team decided in that instance is was their best option doesn't mean that's what happens every time someone does something other than suicide rush you out.

You are trying to create issues where there are none.

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Mischief, I don't know how you made it to almost 4800 posts in this forum without smashing your head into a wall from frustration.

Edited by MadWOPR, 14 January 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I'll give you guys a tip, since I actually want legit fights. If you really want to run attrition on Sulfur, what you do is drop gamma gate and push in with the majority of your force and just camp the one spawn point closest to gamma. They have no choice but to fight you, and there is a firing position over there where you can hit Omega from. You need a decent light pilot or two to hop the gate at Alpha and run the backfield to drop the back generators. The key to attrition is you have to just threaten the objectives enough that the enemy must fight you, they cant afford to just turtle.

I have no problem throwing this out there to you guys, because attrition comes down to skill. If you outskill the opposing team, you win.



Yeah, the problem is if you do rush the attacker spawn, it's easy for the opposing team to suddenly flip the switch and get an easy victory.

Alpha gate is better. You have a high point from which to shoot the enemy as they approach your flank; on Gamma you're always going to have an opening you can't easily cover near the Gamma gate entrance. Alpha also has better cover against LRMs and the guys in back can spot and shoot UAVs. Gamma is pretty open.

Hence... alpha push for attrition. Outside the gate has more open space to set up a firing line to kill the defenders in the gate (gamma you're crammed in a corner) and inside the gate is a more defensible position. You can also push up the left edge under cover and come out right in front of Omega if you're a short-range mech. Gammas best if you're going for Omega; you've got 2 spots you can shoot Omega at long range from that have decent cover.

I'm also confused by this whole 'Liao are better pilots' thing. I rarely lose, even pugging, to Liao. Generally we lose worlds to ghostcaps during off-hours and then don't have enough time to roll them all back when everyone in Davion is showing up. Whe we've actually got equal numbers in queue, like yesterday, we take worlds.

Not trying to say Liao pilots are all bad, etc. etc. just that when there's equal populations in queue we don't lose worlds.

MadWOPR, on 14 January 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Mischief, I don't know how you made it to almost 4800 posts in this forum without smashing your head into a wall from frustration.

The walls of my cell are padded.

[Dimento Graven]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

...

I'm also confused by this whole 'Liao are better pilots' thing. I rarely lose, even pugging, to Liao. Generally we lose worlds to ghostcaps during off-hours and then don't have enough time to roll them all back when everyone in Davion is showing up. Whe we've actually got equal numbers in queue, like yesterday, we take worlds.

Not trying to say Liao pilots are all bad, etc. etc. just that when there's equal populations in queue we don't lose worlds.

...

Too true, today is the first day I've observed almost zero activity between 9:00am and 4:30pm CST from Liaos. Generally during that time there's 3 or more groups attacking Davion planets, so that by the time the NA-prime time heavy Davion units get online they're having to try and knock down planets that are already at 100%...

Maybe a little later this afternoon the Liaos will show up and start attacking.

Please note, I'm not saying this is entirely 'purposeful', I just happen to know that a lot of Liao units have more players in different prime times than the Davion units which are for a large part, mostly located in North America.

I can't be pissed at Liao for getting turret runs when there's basically no Davions on line to counter 'em.

[Faith McCarron]

It's confirmation bias at work, obviously. We all see ourselves winning more than we lose. I just happen to be correct and you happen to be wrong, no biggie.

[Dimento Graven]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

...

Maybe a little later this afternoon the Liaos will show up and start attacking.

...

As predicted I currently see Teng at 9/14, which means Liao will be able to knock it down some (it was at 20% before Davions lost interest due to Liao no shows), and Beid is at 3/0...

<shrug>

[Faith McCarron]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

As predicted I currently see Teng at 9/14, which means Liao will be able to knock it down some (it was at 20% before Davions lost interest due to Liao no shows), and Beid is at 3/0...

<shrug>

And your point is?