472 replies to this topic

[Gorgo7]

Alexander Steel, on 16 January 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

From the Townhall meeting on 1/15/2015.

Q31 (CW planets being won on ghost drops? plans for fixing this?):

Simply put, they're NOT being won on ghost drops. Russ has the stats, and that's just not the case. He thinks this is just because people don't have enough info on queue state. Only 12% of matches in entire day are ghost drops, and almost all of those are outside that final 2 hour crunch period. Expects upcoming changes above to further reduce this.

http://www.reddit.co...n_hall_summary/

12% Ghost drops are huge! 1/6 (2%) during the last 3 hours is massive. Especially if applied asymmetrically to one or two houses.
Liao grumbling remains justified.

[Harathan]

Gorgo7, on 16 January 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Liao grumbling remains justified.

Even if Russ came out and said straight up that ghost drops on the Liao/Davion border contribute no more to that 12% figure than other faction borders, you'd still claim your grumbling is justified. Frankly, it's a bit disturbing.

[Gorgo7]

Harathan, on 16 January 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

Even if Russ came out and said straight up that ghost drops on the Liao/Davion border contribute no more to that 12% figure than other faction borders, you'd still claim your grumbling is justified. Frankly, it's a bit disturbing.

Is that what I would say?

[Faith McCarron]

Let me illustrate why the pure numbers don't necessarily tell the the entire story.

Let's take the town of Mechsville. Mechsville is usually a peaceful and happy place. It has 10 streets, and each of those 10 streets has 10 houses on it. At the town hall meeting, the residents of 10th come out to speak to the city council. You see, there has been a rash of burglaries on 10th street. Every night it seems like several houses are burglarized during the last two hours of the day, their valuables stolen, and every night the residents of 10th street see juvenile delinquents that live on 9th street scurrying around in the darkness. The residents of 10th street are tired of this, and want to form a town police force to patrol the town at night and stop these burglaries.

But wait! The residents of 9th street protest! They don't want to pay taxes to form a police force, those people on 10th street, they say, they're just misplacing things. There really is no theft going on, and so a police force isn't needed. It's not a problem, they say. In fact, their own houses are brimming with valuables, many many valuables, so many valuables, it's a great time to live on 9th street!

Now, the two streets' residents yell at each other and argue over the point, until finally, Mayor Bullock consults with the keeper of the town records, and addresses the residents of the entire town with the facts.

"Relax", he says, "there is nothing to worry about. It turns out only 2% of houses in Mechsville are burglarized on any given night."

Ha! The residents of 9th street shout out, "Look, only 2%, those people on 10th street are just whiners! Whiners, neener neener, we dont need a police force!"


Now, of course, if you look at the facts, it's true, only 2% of the entire city's 100 houses are broken into each night, but every house that is burglarized is on 10th street, and the robbers all live on 9th street, that 2% is pretty darn important if you're a 10th street resident. So if you are a resident of one of the 10 houses on 10th street, there is a 20% chance your house is going to be broken into on any given night! It's a crime wave!

[Gorgo7]

Nice illustration!

[Grynos]

jaxjace, on 16 January 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

Alright look, YES we want a ceasefire but **** man there is NO ONE ON, its to the point that kurita is the only place we can get a fight .

Hmm very very interesting......

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

It is not 'turret drops' that screw Liao and make their efforts seems pointless. It's map position. Their success is driven not by their own performance but Davion population and Marik generosity. THAT is the biggest problem here. That's where you get to 'what happens then'.

The first comment is actually " what happens ". Might have to fight against an ally of sorts because there is no other place to fight. How long will it be before Davions have only friends to fight against?? The Davions ability to not have to really worry about the clans only increases this issue. Waste your time , sitting in queues because the Little green giants refuse to fight a battle they clearly cannot win. Take over those little pixels of green , so that you can feel proud that you did your very best to contribute to " the cause" . It has already started to happen, if there is no place to fight a competitive battle during your peak playing times you will have to seek one out elsewhere.

[Faith McCarron]

Grynos, on 17 January 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Hmm very very interesting......


The first comment is actually " what happens ". Might have to fight against an ally of sorts because there is no other place to fight. How long will it be before Davions have only friends to fight against?? The Davions ability to not have to really worry about the clans only increases this issue. Waste your time , sitting in queues because the Little green giants refuse to fight a battle they clearly cannot win. Take over those little pixels of green , so that you can feel proud that you did your very best to contribute to " the cause" . It has already started to happen, if there is no place to fight a competitive battle during your peak playing times you will have to seek one out elsewhere.

What does that even mean?

[Grynos]

Faith McCarron, on 17 January 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

Let me illustrate why the pure numbers don't necessarily tell the the entire story.

Let's take the town of Mechsville. Mechsville is usually a peaceful and happy place. It has 10 streets, and each of those 10 streets has 10 houses on it. At the town hall meeting, the residents of 10th come out to speak to the city council. You see, there has been a rash of burglaries on 10th street. Every night it seems like several houses are burglarized during the last two hours of the day, their valuables stolen, and every night the residents of 10th street see juvenile delinquents that live on 9th street scurrying around in the darkness. The residents of 10th street are tired of this, and want to form a town police force to patrol the town at night and stop these burglaries.

But wait! The residents of 9th street protest! They don't want to pay taxes to form a police force, those people on 10th street, they say, they're just misplacing things. There really is no theft going on, and so a police force isn't needed. It's not a problem, they say. In fact, their own houses are brimming with valuables, many many valuables, so many valuables, it's a great time to live on 9th street!

Now, the two streets' residents yell at each other and argue over the point, until finally, Mayor Bullock consults with the keeper of the town records, and addresses the residents of the entire town with the facts.

"Relax", he says, "there is nothing to worry about. It turns out only 2% of houses in Mechsville are burglarized on any given night."

Ha! The residents of 9th street shout out, "Look, only 2%, those people on 10th street are just whiners! Whiners, neener neener, we dont need a police force!"


Now, of course, if you look at the facts, it's true, only 2% of the entire city's 100 houses are broken into each night, but every house that is burglarized is on 10th street, and the robbers all live on 9th street, that 2% is pretty darn important if you're a 10th street resident. So if you are a resident of one of the 10 houses on 10th street, there is a 20% chance your house is going to be broken into on any given night! It's a crime wave!

Would be interesting to see the actual faction by faction breakdown of percentage of ghost drops instead of a generalized statement that it only occurse 12% of the time. I mean really if you think about it the clan vs IS battles until recently were always 60+/60+ , so just by those matches alone it would drop the overall percentage. Ten matches go into battle, one of those is a ghost drop.. There is 10% right there. So if lets say 100 matches happen before the ceasefire , and 8 of those are ghost drops, which is only 8% which is really not that much in the grand scheme of things. Yet of that 8% , half of that , so four matches , was Davion dropping against Liao, that's very significant . In PGI's eyes it is not, because overall 8% ghost drop turnout is nothing, it is not good and they are trying to improve on it, but still it is minuscule. But to Liao , that four ghost drops during prime time before ceasefire is what we see, it is looking at the map and seeing 24/0 or 36/12 in favor of Davion . So while it is not that huge of an overall issue to CW, it is in the eyes of most Liao units, who are getting 50% plus of those ghost drops against us.

I am also not saying that it is not happening in reverse during off times. I do not know what happens during the day, if the Liao units are actually playing other opponents or ghost dropping. That being said I would love for PGI to show the data, in relation to faction to ghost drop % .

Faith McCarron, on 17 January 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

What does that even mean?

Basically HHoD , had to fight on kuritas behalf against clan smoke jaguar, because there were not many, if any units fighting on Liao.

[John Wolf]

Hello Mechwarriors,

I've had to check in on this thread a couple of times and its starting to look less like a discussion on the ghost drop situation, and more of an argument between some players about the topic and who's right or wrong.

Liao players, Russ has provided you information about the ghost drop numbers. However, if you feel that the effect is greater then you can continue to collect data on ghost drops in an attempt to provide additional input on the topic.

Davion players, there are no restrictions on where you can post on the forums so you are free to post here and contribute constructively to the discussion. However, keep it constructive and on topic.

If the thread has outlived its usefulness, I will close it down and everyone can move on.


As a player? I have fought hard for worlds and had days where we never lost a drop all night.. and the queue was heavily imbalanced and generating ghost drops. So, yes, its highly likely that there were ghost drops contributing to the overall score and result. However, I am also painfully aware that while one group may be winning all of their matches, another group may be losing all of theirs.

We 'Liao' are not losing based solely on the ghost drops.. is the system flawed? I think so.. and I've put forward suggestions on changes and fixes. Hopefully the system improves over time.

So, lets see this thread back on track, and polite.. so I don't need to moderate anyone and we can all contribute to making CW better.

Thanks,

John Wolf

[Harathan]

Gorgo7, on 16 January 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

12% Ghost drops are huge! 1/6 (2%) during the last 3 hours is massive.

Thats 12 drops out of every 100. That's really not that big a number.

Grynos, on 17 January 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

So while it is not that huge of an overall issue to CW, it is in the eyes of most Liao units, who are getting 50% plus of those ghost drops against us.

So for clarification, you think that of that 12%, the Davion/Liao border accounts for 6% of it.

That would make 6 drops out of every 100, ghost drops.

6 out of every 100.

6.

Ghost drops are a frustrating extension of expected shifting of the playerbase. Even if CW was changed so ghost drops weren't permitted, we'd still need a system whereby the Attacker can claim uncontested territory. But they're not happening nearly as often as claimed, even if you try to bias the numbers toward the Liao/Davion border.

[Gorgo7]

Harathan, on 19 January 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

Thats 12 drops out of every 100. That's really not that big a number.

What do you mean? Can you expand upon that statement?

[Harathan]

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

What do you mean? Can you expand upon that statement?

In what way does it need expanding upon? 12% means 12 out of every 100. Out of every 100 drops, across the whole of CW, only 12 are ghost drops.

Since the Liao/Davion border does not represent the entirety of CW, there is no way that ghost drops are having the impact on this particular border than you claim they are.

Maxwell Albritten, on 19 January 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

I hope for your sake that you're just playing dumb.

We've literally just had a moderator in here talking about this. Ad Hominem does not help your case. Either refute the case that I made, or troll elsewhere.

Edited by Harathan, 19 January 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[Gorgo7]

Harathan, on 19 January 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

In what way does it need expanding upon? 12% means 12 out of every 100. Out of every 100 drops, across the whole of CW, only 12 are ghost drops.

Since the Liao/Davion border does not represent the entirety of CW, there is no way that ghost drops are having the impact on this particular border than you claim they are.


We've literally just had a moderator in here talking about this. Ad Hominem does not help your case. Either refute the case that I made, or troll elsewhere.

Read post 421 and 424.
Refuted.

[Harathan]

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Read post 421 and 424.
Refuted.

Since those 2 posts were what I was addressing, you can't just point back to them and yell "I win!". That's not how debates work.

You are contesting that 12 is a large number compared to 88. I'm contesting that 12 is not all that large compared to 88. I'm fairly certain only one of us is on solid mathematical ground.

You're further contesting that at least half of those 12 are occuring on the Davion/Liao border. So out of every 100 drops, 6 are ghost drops occuring on the Davion/Liao border. I'm contesting that you have no proof of that other than your own conjecture.

You're also contesting that those 6 drops out of every 100 form the majority of the drops that occur along the Davion/Liao border. I'm contesting that again, you have no proof other than your own conjecture.

Am I wrong on any of the specifics? Not that I can see.

So unless Russ cares to elaborate on the figures he gave, you've got nothing to go on except this bizarre persecution complex backed by flimsy anecdotal evidence. That's why you're getting called out so much on it.

Edited by Harathan, 19 January 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

They're also not all 1 sided. So even if it's 8 Davion and 4 Liao drops out of every 100 that's not flipping planets.

You watch the map the bulk of ghost drops are clan border. You'll get Wolf worlds with 60+ vs 0 or 12 - for long stretches of the day. Also the inverse; Smoke Jags will drop 48+ vs 0 on Kurita pretty much right after ceasefire.

We'll see what happens after tomorrow. Currently there are certainly a lot of ghost drops against Liao the last few days; nobody from Liao showed up. It's unfortunate.

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

MischiefSC, on 19 January 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

They're also not all 1 sided. So even if it's 8 Davion and 4 Liao drops out of every 100 that's not flipping planets.

You watch the map the bulk of ghost drops are clan border. You'll get Wolf worlds with 60+ vs 0 or 12 - for long stretches of the day. Also the inverse; Smoke Jags will drop 48+ vs 0 on Kurita pretty much right after ceasefire.

We'll see what happens after tomorrow. Currently there are certainly a lot of ghost drops against Liao the last few days; nobody from Liao showed up. It's unfortunate.

Amen. It's been difficult to get 12 mans up on the Liao side at all, and it doesn't seem like much interest remains. For all the back and forth about all the CW mechanics, the gameplay and CW hasn't been fun enough to keep people coming back on the Liao side. It seems like a lot of this is happening all over, but with the already small faction we have, having a lot of people not care anymore pretty much kills the viability of it for a lot of people.

Hopefully tomorrow picks things back up a bit, since CW being dead three months after launch would be sad.

Edited by MadWOPR, 19 January 2015 - 08:00 PM.

[Gorgo7]

This isn't a debate. It's a post about ghost drops on Liao.
You are the one ranting in another factions forum not me.
Tonight on Capella there were fights but honestly there were one or two scraps for two ghost drops.
Bring this up in the Davion forums if you dare.
Denying reality, as you do, doesn't make it not true. You don't like to hear it because it cheapens Davion victories on the Liao front. We all know that, but you are the one feeling that cheapness. This is not a feeling this is truth.
Witnessed it tonight on Capella. Were you there? If so what did you see?
No? You weren't there? Keep your prim comments to yourself if unable to honestly answer.

Defending were a ragtag collection of GS, 4TCR, PMP, 9th, SCA, OCP, WHM and MasterDDragon (himself).
From the time I got on at 5:45EST I played in 8 matches and lost one. The first three were defense and won them all we held ONE box for the duration. Then i missed a fight and had to wait. We lost the box. Twice we counter attacked and we took back territory both times but got ghosted out of it during the following match.

Dinner.

Davion vanished around 9:30 pm EST. We got a ghost drop in! There was probably another unit involved as the planet quickly moved to 2 pips.
-T defended Boreal and we licked 'em. Hell, we licked 'em all night long. Ask them about that if my word isn't good enough for you.
HHOD made an appearance with a twelve man. We defended on Sulpher and lost to a nice Zerg/swich and bait. That was my last game.

Ghost drops occur frequently on this boarder. [Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 28 January 2015 - 07:44 AM.
Stay on topic.

[Harathan]

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

This isn't a debate. It's a post about ghost drops on Liao.

It certainly started out as a thread about ghost drops on Liao. Too many people were ready to call BS on it, I'm afraid.

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

You are the one ranting in another factions forum not me.

Making calm, measured, reasonable, well founded arguments is ranting? Whatever you say. As per the Moderator, any faction is allowed to post here, as long as it's polite and constructive. I've been nothing but polite and am attempting to be constructive by showing you that I feel your beliefs about ghost drops are in error.

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Tonight on Capella there were fights but honestly there were one or two scraps for two ghost drops.
Bring this up in the Davion forums if you dare.

If I dare...what? Make a post on the Davion forum complaining that Liao aren't bothering to turn up to defend their planets so if we want to take them we're being forced by Liao to ghost drop? Honestly, I don't need to make a post, we already know.

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Denying reality, as you do, doesn't make it not true.

You mean like insisting that the only guy who can provide accurate figures on the rate of ghost drops is wrong? Oh wait, that wasn't me was it?

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

You don't like to hear it because it cheapens Davion victories on the Liao front.

Liao not bothering, or not having the numbers, to defend their worlds is not a Davion problem. Saying it is doesn't make it so.

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Witnessed it tonight on Capella. Were you there? If so what did you see?

Same thing as you, just without the inherent persecution complex and insistence that the opposing team should simply stop playing when you can't get enough people online to defend your worlds.

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Ghost drops occur frequently on this boarder. Deny it and you are a liar or stupid.

Nobody is denying they happen. I have never denied they happen. The difference is, you are insisting they are mostly only happening against Liao and that is the only reason you're losing worlds. This, despite the figures from Russ stating how little they really actually happen.

Gorgo7, on 19 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

We are keeping this thread alive as a testimony. You come here to Troll.

You are keeping this thread alive because some of you are convinced that either there's some kind of conspiracy against Liao, or that one faction having a number advantage over another is broken and somehow PGI's responsibility to fix. Since neither is true, you're going to continue being called out on it.


[Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 28 January 2015 - 07:45 AM.
Moderated Quote

[Valar13]

Maxwell Albritten, on 06 January 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

What the eff are your rambling about? Sounds nothing more than a bunch of rubbish to try and excuse you from the fact that you joined the largest faction in hopes of just reaping the easy wins.

And besides, now that Davion can't literally dump 100% of their players on Liao due to the Marik offensive you guys suddenly can't get a win.

I see no issues.

Or maybe they actually like Davion, just like you apparently like Liao? And Seraphim likes Marik? And NS likes Kurita? And CGBI likes Ghost Bear? And...so on and so forth.

[Valar13]

What I basically gather from the Liao forums is that Davion is the one faction no one plays because they actually *like* that faction (never mind that my entire in-game identity is based on my limited TT experience) but is solely composed of win-farming bullies.

Gotcha.