451 replies to this topic

[meteorol]

Hydrocarbon, on 03 January 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

Typical TDR-9S "ERPPC" build: 1620m max range & 30 pinpoint alpha at under 2 DPS, ~3 DPS sustained with 20+10 shooting, ~8 DPS max with quirks, 82 KPS max: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b4814d14e8111e4

"ThunderCat" clan response mech #1: 1480m max range & 33 alpha at over 3 DPS, max 54 alpha (advantage: you can paint any FAST moving target), 4.6 DPS sustained below 810m (ERML) and 4.3 DPS below 1480m (ERLL), 12 DPS max, JUMPJETS & Clan XL-engine, 89 KPS max: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8642aaaf3214d6e

"ThunderGaussCat" clan response mech #2: 1980m max range & 30 pinpoint alpah at over 6 DPS, 30 pinpoint alpha, 6.3 DPS max/sustained, 5 tons of ammo, similar armor to the TDR-9S (overall & leg-specific), and Clan XL-engine, 89 KPS max: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...83c28b421e0b970


If you really think the 9S should be nerfed, you are a dum bass. Yes the ERPPC's are great for sniping, but the clan has an answer to it for just 10 more tons. It's faster, one is FAR better short-med range (hint: anti-ZERG'er) and the other NEVER overheats, and neither go boom when loosing a side torso.


YOUR LOGIC IS FLAWED.

Dude, like seriously? Seriously?

First of all, i have not seen a single person using the 3ER PPC build with XL (only playing CW atm).

Second, you are comparing the TDRs frontloaded pinpoint dmg to clan ER LL dot. There is a reason PPCs were the meta for 2 solid years (before their speed was nerfed so hard, something the TDR quirks make up for). Pinpoint > dot

And that third mech? In all the time playing since clan mechs have been released, i have never seen a single 2x gauss timber. You know why?
If you hit every single shot within the optimal range (660m) you will have a maximum damage potential of 750 damage. Take a more realistic accuracy for the gauss (80%, which is still very high) you end up with 600 maximum damage you will be able deal if you only shoot inside the optimal range. If you are sniping at around +1km (CW ranges) you will lose almost 1/3 of your damage, making it around a bit over 400 maximum possible damage if you hit 80% of your shots.
It has no jumpjets so it can't use the "timberhop" to spread damage, and no backup weapons while only using 5t between 2GR.
Seriously, if you trying to argue with paperbuilds, atleast use builds someone would actually field.

Edited by meteorol, 03 January 2015 - 11:24 PM.

[Gyrok]

Hydrocarbon, on 03 January 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

Typical TDR-9S "ERPPC" build: 1620m max range & 30 pinpoint alpha at under 2 DPS, ~3 DPS sustained with 20+10 shooting, ~8 DPS max with quirks, 82 KPS max: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b4814d14e8111e4

"ThunderCat" clan response mech #1: 1480m max range & 33 alpha at over 3 DPS, max 54 alpha (advantage: you can paint any FAST moving target), 4.6 DPS sustained below 810m (ERML) and 4.3 DPS below 1480m (ERLL), 12 DPS max, JUMPJETS & Clan XL-engine, 89 KPS max: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8642aaaf3214d6e

"ThunderGaussCat" clan response mech #2: 1980m max range & 30 pinpoint alpah at over 6 DPS, 30 pinpoint alpha, 6.3 DPS max/sustained, 5 tons of ammo, similar armor to the TDR-9S (overall & leg-specific), and Clan XL-engine, 89 KPS max: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...83c28b421e0b970


If you really think the 9S should be nerfed, you are a dum bass. Yes the ERPPC's are great for sniping, but the clan has an answer to it for just 10 more tons. It's faster, one is FAR better short-med range (hint: anti-ZERG'er) and the other NEVER overheats, and neither go boom when loosing a side torso.


YOUR LOGIC IS FLAWED.

meteorol, on 03 January 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

Dude, like seriously? Seriously?

First of all, i have not seen a single person using the 3ER PPC build with XL (only playing CW atm).

Second, you are comparing the TDRs frontloaded pinpoint dmg to clan ER LL dot. There is a reason PPCs were the meta for 2 solid years (before their speed was nerfed so hard, something the TDR quirks make up for). Pinpoint > dot

And that third mech? In all the time playing since clan mechs have been released, i have never seen a single 2x gauss timber. You know why?
If you hit every single shot within the optimal range (660m) you will have a maximum damage potential of 750 damage. Take a more realistic accuracy for the gauss (80%, which is still very high) you end up with 600 maximum damage you will be able deal if you only shoot inside the optimal range. If you are sniping at around +1km (CW ranges) you will lose almost 1/3 of your damage, making it around a bit over 400 maximum possible damage if you hit 80% of your shots.
It has no jumpjets so it can't use the "timberhop" to spread damage, and no backup weapons while only using 5t between 2GR.
Seriously, if you trying to argue with paperbuilds, atleast use builds someone would actually field.

This.

2x Guass on TW is ridiculous at best...especially in CW when you only have 5T ammo between 2 weapons.

Additionally...

Clan lasers are not pinpoint damage. Not even close. PPCs are like ballistics and hit a single component. You can spread a CERLL to hit every component on your mech above the legs during the burn duration.

Not the same.

EDIT: If it is not OP...then surely PGI should just make CERPPC heat 7.5 for clans across the board. What would you say to that?

Edited by Gyrok, 03 January 2015 - 11:45 PM.

[EvilCow]

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

EDIT: I have also broken 3k without a single IS mech

NERF CLAN TECH, ALL OF IT!!!!!!

[Ultimax]

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

EDIT: If it is not OP...then surely PGI should just make CERPPC heat 7.5 for clans across the board. What would you say to that?

I would say you are still working very hard to be obtuse.

The Thunderbolt is a 65 ton mech, that is so wide and un-agile it has to run STD engines or be a complete death trap, which reduces it's potential loadouts.

So the reason it shouldn't be "OK for clans across the board!" is because clan mechs are getting massive speed for their Clan XL tonnage investments, can fit well over 20 DHS on many builds and because the top performers have things like good hitboxes, jump jets, walk animations that spread damage, etc.


Try comparing apples to apples next time, the are few mechs clan side that are as bad as Thunderbolts were before quirks - and most of those are light mechs.

[Manei Domini Krigg]

If IS-mechs so OP, why INVANSION is going so fast?
We all see that IS is only defendeng, but Cnans take more and more planets.

Edited by Krigg, 04 January 2015 - 01:57 AM.

[Greenjulius]

I tried running this mech for the first time in almost 6 months, and was pleasantly surprised to see it become somewhat useful with these quirks. However, overpowered it is not. Ghost heat limits how useful more than 2 ERPPCs can be, even with quirks. I find myself balancing DPS with high alphas and always falling back on only bringing 2. Perhaps with mastery this may change, but I haven't seen any instance of this mech dominating the battlefield.

Personally, I might take the TDR-9S out every once in a while when I want something different, but my go-to for long range combat is still easily dual gauss.

Edited by Greenjulius, 04 January 2015 - 02:04 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Lava Cookies, on 03 January 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Poor Awesomes. :[

meanwhile warhawk is sitting there with no quirks...

[Nightshade24]

Greenjulius, on 04 January 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

I tried running this mech for the first time in almost 6 months, and was pleasantly surprised to see it become somewhat useful with these quirks. However, overpowered it is not. Ghost heat limits how useful more than 2 ERPPCs can be, even with quirks. I find myself balancing DPS with high alphas and always falling back on only bringing 2. Perhaps with mastery this may change, but I haven't seen any instance of this mech dominating the battlefield.

Personally, I might take the TDR-9S out every once in a while when I want something different, but my go-to for long range combat is still easily dual gauss.

chain fire... it isn't that hard...

Even then ,2 ER PPC's + quirks + modules = 3 Warhawks in ER PPC builds OR 2 Awesome in ER PPC builds.

I think they accidentally put the Adder quirks on the thunderbolt

Krigg, on 04 January 2015 - 01:56 AM, said:

If IS-mechs so OP, why INVANSION is going so fast?
We all see that IS is only defendeng, but Cnans take more and more planets.

Not today. I saw quite a few clan planets lost and many clans lossing the fight to deffend there planets while attacking the IS is very slow.

I've been seeing nothing but 12 thunderbolt 9S's and firestarter A's with the occasional raven or so for the past few days and I haven't won a single game. Regardless of 100% pugs verse 100% pugs or me being the pug in an 11 man group.
I haven't won at all.

I've had so many missions as a clan defending on rather boreal or sulfur and we lost due to the first 8 minutes 40 of the mechs on our team died with only a third of theres dead.

This shouldn't happen when we have the so called "Turrets, walls, and position" advantage or on Sulfur we have the lead heatsinks advantage...

[meteorol]

Krigg, on 04 January 2015 - 01:56 AM, said:

If IS-mechs so OP, why INVANSION is going so fast?
We all see that IS is only defendeng, but Cnans take more and more planets.

Man, if i see this argument one more time i will probably break down and cry because i can't handle it anymore. Critical brain error. Meltdown.

CW invasion speed is completely irrelevant for balance. It is influenced by skill gap between units, numbers, ghostwins.
Clans were going strong and recently many of the clan big players (Lords, SJR, QQ, MS) went IS. Guess what happened? Steiner took 5 planets during the last 2 days. FFR took 2. Two factions that got their ass handed to them ever since CW started are winning now.
Jade Falcons lost 2 planets the last 2 days because the already small faction lost their bigger units.

Who owns how many planets is entirely irrelevant from a balance point of view.

[Nightshade24]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

I would say you are still working very hard to be obtuse.

The Thunderbolt is a 65 ton mech, that is so wide and un-agile it has to run STD engines or be a complete death trap, which reduces it's potential loadouts.

So the reason it shouldn't be "OK for clans across the board!" is because clan mechs are getting massive speed for their Clan XL tonnage investments, can fit well over 20 DHS on many builds and because the top performers have things like good hitboxes, jump jets, walk animations that spread damage, etc.


Try comparing apples to apples next time, the are few mechs clan side that are as bad as Thunderbolts were before quirks - and most of those are light mechs.

I run XL on all my thunderbolts and do not have any problems...

Since when was XL on a thunderbolt a no no? I never heard any complaints.

[Greenjulius]

Nightshade24, on 04 January 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

chain fire... it isn't that hard...

Even then ,2 ER PPC's + quirks + modules = 3 Warhawks in ER PPC builds OR 2 Awesome in ER PPC builds.

I think they accidentally put the Adder quirks on the thunderbolt

Chainfiring PPCs is the same as using lasers. If you aren't hitting them all in the same place, you are spreading damage all over the enemy. Only bad players present their CT to you to put chainfired projectiles into.

I find I need more DHS in an extended firefight. A 3rd ERPPC takes away too many. The Thunderbolt requires a standard engine, just like the Atlas. Barn door torsos and all. Only 2 of the hardpoints are high mounted.

Nightshade24, on 04 January 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:

I run XL on all my thunderbolts and do not have any problems...

Since when was XL on a thunderbolt a no no? I never heard any complaints.

I had no idea the Thunderbolt was considered XL friendly with those big side torsos. I usually lose a side torso before my CT goes. At least if you use the left side as a sponge, that is.

Edited by Greenjulius, 04 January 2015 - 02:26 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Greenjulius, on 04 January 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

Chainfiring PPCs is the same as using lasers. If you aren't hitting them all in the same place, you are spreading damage all over the enemy. Only bad players present their CT to you to put chainfired projectiles into.

I find I need more DHS in an extended firefight. A 3rd ERPPC takes away too many. The Thunderbolt requires a standard engine, just like the Atlas. Barn door torsos and all. Only 2 of the hardpoints are high mounted.



I had no idea the Thunderbolt was considered XL friendly with those big side torsos. I usually lose a side torso before my CT goes. At least if you use the left side as a sponge, that is.

ER PPC's still have the counter ECM effect, and you can't really roll damage from 5 to 12 er ppc boats.

If I move to take the er ppc's from 1 Thunderbolt with an arm, there is another right there that could line up shots for my CT.

Also mechs like the Direwolf, Timberwolf, kitfox, etc isn't that hard to hit the CT from the front or side. and for the direwolf situation after the first hit of an er ppc, you start reacting and detect the threat and turn after the 2nd should have hit, you wouldn't have turned away in time by the time the 3rd hit.

And if it isn't the CT working against you, it's the huge arms on the gargoyle, kitfox, mist lynx, etc that take most the damage and thus 100% to 50% of your firepower is gone.

etc...

Anyway, I have no problems running a 3 ER PPC thunderbolt even before ANY quirks came. (I ran it on the 5SS). If you have issues with it post quirks and post ER PPC heat reduction then I do not know what you are doing wrong.



Anyway back to my Thunderbolt. I always found the CT bigger then the ST's on my thunderbolt. I often load up as much firepower I have. 2 of the 3 thunderbolts I got are for close range combat. not a single problem. The times I die from ST destruction is when my CT is already orange/red cored. Not like 3 seconds of living would help me.

[kapusta11]

I'm doing fine in XL Thuds.

[Nightshade24]

kapusta11, on 04 January 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

I'm doing fine in XL Thuds.

2000+ damage on 2 people on an IS mech?
Never seen anything like that on a clan mech... I rarely see over 1500 damage, even with the lords...

[KuroNyra]

Nightshade24, on 04 January 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

2000+ damage on 2 people on an IS mech?
Never seen anything like that on a clan mech... I rarely see over 1500 damage, even with the lords...

CW battle.

[EvilCow]

Nightshade24, on 04 January 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

2000+ damage on 2 people on an IS mech?
Never seen anything like that on a clan mech... I rarely see over 1500 damage, even with the lords...

Over 30 minutes it is nothing really unusual.

[Nightshade24]

KuroNyra, on 04 January 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

CW battle.

Yes, and I repeat. I never see clans get over 1500 damage.

EvilCow, on 04 January 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

Over 30 minutes it is nothing really unusual.

nothing unusual for an inner sphere mech I guess....

[John80sk]

Nightshade24, on 04 January 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Yes, and I repeat. I never see clans get over 1500 damage.

nothing unusual for an inner sphere mech I guess....

That's either a lie, or the people you're playing with aren't very good. It's not unusual to see over 3,000 damage. A 4,000+ game is roughly as hard to get as a 1200-1500 game in regular drops.

Saxie, on 03 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Huh.... Clanners say Thunder bolt is op... IS say clanners are OP...

I say sounds pretty balanced lol.

Weird how the closer things get to being balanced the more folks cry eh?

[Nightshade24]

John80sk, on 04 January 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

That's either a lie, or the people you're playing with aren't very good. It's not unusual to see over 3,000 damage. A 4,000+ game is roughly as hard to get as a 1200-1500 game in regular drops.

I have never seen a 3000 damage game + in CW.

I have seen full teams of golden khan mechs before (minus me).
I have seen 12 man groups both IS and Clan.
I have seen LORD in action as Clan.
I have seen youtube videos of people rolfstomping in CW.

I have never saw anyone get 3000 damage+ in CW and I usually see an average of 2 people getting 1500 damage as clans and a half dozen IS getting 1700+. but never saw 2000+ until that screenshot.

[EvilCow]

Nightshade24, on 04 January 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

I have never seen a 3000 damage game + in CW.

....
I have seen LORD in action as Clan.

The above two sentences are not compatible, I have achieved 3000+ myself and I am average.