177 replies to this topic

[Inveramsay]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

Hmm. You seem to be mistaking my expression of concern for whining. But that's nothing new from you.

There is a lot of discontent out there about CW. I have seen players just disconnect upon seeing a second wave of 3xERPPC TDRs. Heck, some have disconnected seemingly in disgust after seeing just the first wave. There is already a lot of grumbling from masses of solo players. And even some units are already avoiding CW. At this rate, very few players will be playing CW or even MWO. Is that something you want? Or do you just not care?

Also, do you think the Summoner deserves to remain as is? I am asking because I have seen no one using it so far in CW. In addition, I am seeing very few Warhawks out there. Heck, for most of my CW matches, the only Warhawk around was mine.

In any case, variety is very much lacking on both sides. Something must be done to promote it.

Is it really that different to a clan team loading up with 12 ERPPC/gauss whales or a IS team loading 12 dual gauss jagers? I'd be more worried about the gauss as they are far easier to hit with and have even longer ranges than the ERPPC

Much of the problem is in the map design favouring extremely long ranges in CW

Edited by Inveramsay, 05 January 2015 - 06:08 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

topgun505, on 05 January 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

When you start seeing literally 10 identical mechs in a drop, that just might be a red flag that something is rather borked for balance.

From a lore perspective the ERPPC was hot as hell and almost no mechs had more than 2 of them. Not only can the 9S mount three but it can chain fire them in rapid succession pretty much all day long.

Honestly PGI should probably not make bonuses stack.

If a mech has a generic quirk like Laser Cooldown and a specific like ER Large Laser 15% ... they shouldn't combine to make a 25% reduction. It should just use the better of the 2 bonuses that apply to the weapon.

Or you are seeing smart players on a team that have a set build list like Mercs and Standard armies would bring. Do teh Marines have 15 different rifles they use? You are playing a game based on warfare and Mercs SO YMMV but folks will always use what is the best they can bring... But a Marik Piloting a Kurita only Mech... Chaps my ash!

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

So Thunderbolts are what the Awesomes is supposed top be? Is that what people are complaining about?

Yes, I think partly so. And I also find that to be a bit of the problem. The Awesome should be what the 3xERPPC TDR is right now.

Joseph Mallan, on 05 January 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

I am really getting sick of video gamers.

But who are we going to play with if they stop playing? I do not have a brood of 22 Mechwarriors.

[Tastian]

topgun505, on 05 January 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

When you start seeing literally 10 identical mechs in a drop, that just might be a red flag that something is rather borked for balance.

I fought a 12 man clan group. Their first wave was nothing but Laser vomit Timberwolves. Their next wave was a solid group of streak crows. In fact, every clan group I've fought, every person has at least 1 or 2 crows in their deck (that's 12 to 24 crows). At the MOST, I've seen maybe 4 Tbolt 9S in a PUG drop. But then again I haven't faced 12 man IS units either. So, let's say there are groups bringing 12 to 24 Tblolt 9S; and if you take away the Tbolt 9S, guess what? Those 12 man IS groups will then put 12 of something else in their line up. How about 12 Cicada 3C all with ERPPC? Just like boating weapons, a single Tbolt 9S is a non issue; but 12 of them from a skilled group can be a challenge.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

But who are we going to play with if they stop playing? I do not have a brood of 22 Mechwarriors.

Well, I could go back to playing against the the same guys I played TT against for 28ish years.

[Mystere]

Inveramsay, on 05 January 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Is it really that different to a clan team loading up with 12 ERPPC/gauss whales or a IS team loading 12 dual gauss jagers? I'd be more worried about the gauss as they are far easier to hit with and have even longer ranges than the ERPPC

Much of the problem is in the map design favouring extremely long ranges in CW

Frankly, my personal concern is variety, or more specifically the obvious lack of it on both sides. But I am also not deaf to the grumbling that is increasingly getting louder. There was a whole lot over the weekend.

[Tastian]

luxebo, on 04 January 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

This is my opinion of the Thunderbolt vs Timber/Hellbringer/Stormcrow: Buff all mechs to their respective levels. The quirks aren't quite done yet, but while Thunderbolt and all this stuff is considered OP, you look at stuff like Awesome, Dragon, etc. Therefore this means that we need buffs on Awesome, Dragon, etc. Basically everything NOT OP.

TL;DR: Solution to everything is buff things bad to good, not nerf things good to bad. I don't really care how, but a Dragon should be just as worth taking as a Thunderbolt. Same as a Quickdraw being as good as both Dragon and Thunderbolt. Everything should be good as each other within their respective roles (or at least have a niche in gameplay).

So many mechs are incredibly good for the non CW queue, but do not have the endurance for CW.

Even if the Awesome 9M had the same ERPPC quirks; you could only put 2 of them in your deck because of the weight.

You don't see Dragon 1N because the incredible AC5 quirk requires ammo (which runs out in CW). Same with the duel Gauss Jag or Catapult.

The Wubverine is incredible but once that arm is destroyed its useless.

This is also why you see plenty of Gauss Timberwolves in the regular queue, but not many in CW (at least I haven't). But the Twolf is much more diverse. If you can't use one build on the Timberwolf, it still excels with plenty of others. But take away the Dragon's one ability; and you can't use it.

Mechs that don't require ammo, are mid range in weight, and aren't slow are your best bets. The Tbolts (and stormcrows) have found that niche.

Edited by Tastian, 05 January 2015 - 06:33 AM.

[Shredhead]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

Hmm. You seem to be mistaking my expression of concern for whining. But that's nothing new from you.

There is a lot of discontent out there about CW. I have seen players just disconnect upon seeing a second wave of 3xERPPC TDRs. Heck, some have disconnected seemingly in disgust after seeing just the first wave. There is already a lot of grumbling from masses of solo players. And even some units are already avoiding CW. At this rate, very few players will be playing CW or even MWO. Is that something you want? Or do you just not care?

Also, do you think the Summoner deserves to remain as is? I am asking because I have seen no one using it so far in CW. In addition, I am seeing very few Warhawks out there. Heck, for most of my CW matches, the only Warhawk around was mine.

In any case, variety is very much lacking on both sides. Something must be done to promote it.

I do actually agree, yes. More variety is needed. The Thor in its current state (I'd put it in tier 3) can easily become a tier 1 mech just by giving it some more omni pod options. Its lack of hardpoints is the problem. As for the Warhawk, you can thank all those forum whiners and again, the 240 ton limit. It's simply more efficient for clanners to take Timbies and Crows. Clans need more mechs, and IS need more and better quirks to make other mechs as viable. That would be the solution to the variety problem. And I think I'll never really get why PGI decided for the Ice Ferret instead of the Viper. Meh.

[C E Dwyer]

This is one of those I keep getting butt ***** by a TDR so I want it nerfed because I can only play one way and this mech stops me threads.

Lets nerf all weapons and builds until we can't do any damage to eachother

[EgoSlayer]

Black Arachne, on 04 January 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Why is a 65t mech superior to an 80 ton mech using the same weapon layout?

Because of a 240 ton weight cap you can take 3 65 tonners.

[Ngamok]

I would drop it to 20% + 20% instead of the 25s it is now.

[jlawsl]

Or change the speed buff to a negative quirk, that way it won't be nearly as effective at range. Instead of a +15%, give it -15%, which would make it about 50mps slower then an unquirked regular ppc. You could still hit still targets, but it would need a lot more shots to have any kind of accuracy against moving ones even at medium ranges.

[topgun505]

Agree Mystere. The Awesome should be what the TDR currently is. At least it would have a bit more balance in regards to not being able to hill hump as well as the TDR and it's as big as a billboard.

Tastian. I didn't say that the TW wasn't a problem. But at least with that chassis you DO see significant weapon variations.

As for the streakcrows, you can thank PGI not entirely fixing the hitboxes on the FSRs for that (plus the fact that light rushes can still be moderately successful in CW, you just need 2 waves of them now instead of only 1). So the crows are there to guard against the light rush cheese. Can't say I blame them. That's just being prudent.

[warner2]

The thing with the 9S as it currently stands is an ERPPC is the same heat as a PPC on that 'mech. So it's a no brainer whether to take ERPPC or PPC on a 9S.

If it's considered too powerful I would support dialling back the heat reduction on the ERPPC a little. That way it will also open up a choice as to whether to take ERPPC or PPC or combinations of both since now PPC will still be less hot even on this chassis.

[MechWarrior9376871]

Mordin Ashe, on 04 January 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Clans have 3 solid Mechs and those two are 2/3 of that, the last one is close to useless in CW. Besides, you see many other Clan mechs in battles, much more than other IS mechs that aren't TDRs.
And as KrazedOmega wrote above, the Mechs have different loadouts.

So yes, your attempt failed. Logic check recommended next time, focus on comparing Mech pools and % viability of specific chassis and take weaponry into consideration. Too much for you? I suppose so but still, try it.

It really amazes me how most people with absolutely no concept of logic always use the word "logic" to backup their incredibly stupid analysis.

[Brody319]

The thunderbolt is not a PPC boat! it has 1 stock. These PPCs quirks need to go to a real PPC boat like the Awesome.

The Awesome has to expose more of itself, and for the 8Q giving it PPC quirks and not ERPPC quirks would mean it has a minimum range, get in that range and it can't hurt you. Its also a huge target. There are weaknesses and thus it makes sense for it to have more powerful quirks.

Thunderbolt should have AT most 20% ERPPC heat reduction, and it should have some Flamer damage, or Medium laser range quirks. Hell you could even buff the Medium laser range to near ER levels and it would be more balanced than it is now.

I mean stock this thing has 1 ERPPC, and yet it gets the best ERPPC quirks in the ******* game?! Over the 9M awesome which has 3 ERPPCs, 8Q which has 3 PPCs, the K2 which comes with 2 of them?

I mean shouldn't the 8V which comes with 1 PPC get half heat, velocity buffs, and 25% cooldown?

[Mcgral18]

911 Inside Job, on 05 January 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

It really amazes me how most people with absolutely no concept of logic always use the word "logic" to backup their incredibly stupid analysis.

Mcgral18, on 04 January 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

I did mention that, actually.

It would need about 8 to increase the cap 11 points, while also benefiting the cooling.

Endo and a 325 means 1 less DHSm unless you want to go XL
AWS-9M

6!=8
TDR-9S


So, it gains .84 H/s dissipation over the Thud (without efficiencies), but for every 2+1 ERPPC punch, it generates 11.25 more ERPPC heat.


My Basic'ed 9S can fire (4) 2+1 ERPPCs before shutting down on the 12th ERPPC shot for a second(or use trigger discipline to not fire until at 85% heat).

The Awesome firing 12 ERPPC shots generates 45 additional heat, compared to the Thud (11.25*12=135 heat, 7.5*12=90 heat). No amount of heatsinks will offset that difference.

We did make an analysis, actually. It had numbers.


The 9M overheats on the 9th ERPPC, with 8 additional heatsinks, both mechs being basic'ed means 10% cap and 7.5% dissipation boosts.

So, that means my Thud has a cap of 61.16 heat, and a dissipation rate of 2.752 H/s.

My Awesome has a cap of 73.48 heat, and a dissipation rate of 3.956 H/s.


The Thud has 7.5 heat ERPPCs, the Awesome has 11.25 heat ERPPCs. That 10 heat capacity extra means...it can fire 3 less ERPPCs before shutdown?

If the Thud was mastered, it would gain another 5 to the heat cap and dissipate at 2.944 instead. Maybe enough to shoot 14 ERPPCs instead of 12.



I don't know about you, but that's pretty ridiculous to me. I don't suppose you've actually done any numbers on it, have you? Or do you just want to defend the mech that requires no trigger discipline?

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 January 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 05 January 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

We did make an analysis, actually. It had numbers.


The 9M overheats on the 9th ERPPC, with 8 additional heatsinks, both mechs being basic'ed means 10% cap and 7.5% dissipation boosts.

So, that means my Thud has a cap of 61.16 heat, and a dissipation rate of 2.752 H/s.

My Awesome has a cap of 73.48 heat, and a dissipation rate of 3.956 H/s.


The Thud has 7.5 heat ERPPCs, the Awesome has 11.25 heat ERPPCs. That 10 heat capacity extra means...it can fire 3 less ERPPCs before shutdown?

If the Thud was mastered, it would gain another 5 to the heat cap and dissipate at 2.944 instead. Maybe enough to shoot 14 ERPPCs instead of 12.



I don't know about you, but that's pretty ridiculous to me. I don't suppose you've actually done any numbers on it, have you? Or do you just want to defend the mech that requires no trigger discipline?

thats the whole entire porblem, Mechs somehow do not get balanced and be compared to the others, nd then you create mosnters of choice that make other mechs obsolate. How cna this be good, or balanced? How is that vital for IS vs Clan? Ifa mech is going to eb dominant like TBR, SCR and now the Thunder, shouldn't this ttoally ring some bells and cause rethinking. I don't see the balance in there.

but loosk liek people do always defend their trigger discipline less mechs, because easy mode is easy.

I also hate russ twittering, It creates the feelijg the Forum gets ignore and he is listening to god knows what people that hardly can do any math past the plus and minus. Some mechs are already on paper not balanced.