146 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Brody319, on 04 January 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

The flying **** is with all these whiny babies who think we are saying the 9S needs to be nerfed to hell?! I don't care if its GOOD, or has ERPPC quirks, I just don't think it should be firing them at HALF the heat of every other PPC boat we have! I mean jesus christ. If the Summoner could fire PPCs at half heat like the 9S the forums would never shut the hell up about it, but because its an IS mech its okay, even if that means the rest of the IS PPC boats are trashed.

Well, people do not like their latest flavor of the month toy taken away from them.

And, yes, give the Summoner the same ERPPC quirks.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 04 January 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

My bad with the variant name.. (i dont own thuinderbolds and never plan to buy some)

And yet you sound as if you are an expert:

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 04 January 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

9ss works as intended. killing some clans on distance. Since the clans dont have superiority on distance they appeared massively on forum to QQ all way long

[Mystere]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 04 January 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

Reduce the speed of the timber or/and remove the jumpjets from it

Be careful what you wish for. That's quite a bit of extra tons for equipment that can make a lot more people cry.

And also, a slow Timberwolf is no Timberwolf.

[Alienized]

i always wondered why the clanmechs got so much armor here.

a timberwolf has 12tons of armor.
a thunderbolt has 13tons of armor.

so in fact, clanmechs always traded a holy damn lot of armor for their firepower.
in mw4 the clanmechs had by far not that much armor than here.


that was the main tradeoff for their weaponry. high heat generation and lack of armor.


so i checked the armor on the timbers in mechlab... all at 460. more than most orions that should have 2.5tons more armor.

to me its obvious. they got the too much armor for their firepower. not the tradeoff as it should be.

[kapusta11]

Aliisa White, on 05 January 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

i always wondered why the clanmechs got so much armor here.

a timberwolf has 12tons of armor.
a thunderbolt has 13tons of armor.

so in fact, clanmechs always traded a holy damn lot of armor for their firepower.
in mw4 the clanmechs had by far not that much armor than here.


that was the main tradeoff for their weaponry. high heat generation and lack of armor.


so i checked the armor on the timbers in mechlab... all at 460. more than most orions that should have 2.5tons more armor.

to me its obvious. they got the too much armor for their firepower. not the tradeoff as it should be.

TW is 75 tonn mech, Thud is 65, that's why it has less armor.

[FupDup]

Aliisa White, on 05 January 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

i always wondered why the clanmechs got so much armor here.

a timberwolf has 12tons of armor.
a thunderbolt has 13tons of armor.

so in fact, clanmechs always traded a holy damn lot of armor for their firepower.
in mw4 the clanmechs had by far not that much armor than here.


that was the main tradeoff for their weaponry. high heat generation and lack of armor.


so i checked the armor on the timbers in mechlab... all at 460. more than most orions that should have 2.5tons more armor.

to me its obvious. they got the too much armor for their firepower. not the tradeoff as it should be.

The Mad Cat uses FF armor that is lighter weight than IS STD armor, thereby giving more armor points per ton. The Mad Cat stock has more total armor than a stock Thunderbolt and matches the protection of a stock Onion.

[C E Dwyer]

don't know don't care, the K2, and maybe the jester 'should' be the big PPC buffed heavy mechs on the IS side from the very begining, with nerfs on the balistic side for the K2

[MeiSooHaityu]

Cathy, on 05 January 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

don't know don't care, the K2, and maybe the jester 'should' be the big PPC buffed heavy mechs on the IS side from the very begining, with nerfs on the balistic side for the K2

I agree with everything but the ballistic nerf.

I run a K2 with 2 PPCs, 1 A/C 10 and 2 MLasers. It's nice, but I doubt ERPPC quirks or 40% velocity buff are going to make my build super OP like the Thunderbolt 9S. A big nose and the general power creep of new mechs negates the need for the K2 to receive negative ballistic quirks.

I understand not buffing ballistics specifically at all, but the K2 has enough issues to warrant leaving negative quirks out of the picture.

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

Be careful what you wish for. That's quite a bit of extra tons for equipment that can make a lot more people cry.

And also, a slow Timberwolf is no Timberwolf.

A slow TimberWolf is a Night Gyr; with a 300 engine instead of a 375.

Without JJs, it could mount 42 tons of guns. Pretty close to a Dire Whale, while moving at 64/71.



That would be fun.

[Brody319]

Mcgral18, on 05 January 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

A slow TimberWolf is a Night Gyr; with a 300 engine instead of a 375.

Without JJs, it could mount 42 tons of guns. Pretty close to a Dire Whale, while moving at 64/71.



That would be fun.

I tried to give him the math. the engine you would have to put into it to make it run his suggested speed of 80kph, would free up like 6 tons, you give the timberwolf more firepower by removing the parts that people complain makes it broken.

[Alienized]

FupDup, on 05 January 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

The Mad Cat uses FF armor that is lighter weight than IS STD armor, thereby giving more armor points per ton. The Mad Cat stock has more total armor than a stock Thunderbolt and matches the protection of a stock Onion.

ok so we got the ability to put FF armor onto our thunderbolts.... does that get us near the ability of a tbr?..... uh..... nope. since we cant even put the extra-minor-tons from our FF armor on top of the already existant armor.... uhm... how should we balance this out now.....

[FupDup]

Aliisa White, on 05 January 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

ok so we got the ability to put FF armor onto our thunderbolts.... does that get us near the ability of a tbr?..... uh..... nope. since we cant even put the extra-minor-tons from our FF armor on top of the already existant armor.... uhm... how should we balance this out now.....

IS FF is worse than Clan FF (heavier, bulkier), and the Thud is 65 tons anyways (therefore lower armor capacity than a 75 tonner).

Having a higher armor limit with FF would be a kewl change though, and maybe people would use it outside of lights and low-end mediums.

[MeiSooHaityu]

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 January 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

I agree with everything but the ballistic nerf.

I run a K2 with 2 PPCs, 1 A/C 10 and 2 MLasers. It's nice, but I doubt ERPPC quirks or 40% velocity buff are going to make my build super OP like the Thunderbolt 9S. A big nose and the general power creep of new mechs negates the need for the K2 to receive negative ballistic quirks.

I understand not buffing ballistics specifically at all, but the K2 has enough issues to warrant leaving negative quirks out of the picture.

BTW: Another reason to not negative quirk ballistics on the K2. If the Jester also gets PPC quirks (which it probably should), where does that leave the K2?

The K2 is now a nerfed Jester with 2 less "effective" hard points and no JJs. If the K2 gets ballistics nerfed into uselessness (MG spots like people say they want), it effectively has 4 energy hardpoints vs a Jesters 6 energy. Plus like i said, no JJs. Not good for balancing.

Just leave out the negative quirks to ballistics and don't make any buff ballistic quirks to the K2

[Brody319]

Aliisa White, on 05 January 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

ok so we got the ability to put FF armor onto our thunderbolts.... does that get us near the ability of a tbr?..... uh..... nope. since we cant even put the extra-minor-tons from our FF armor on top of the already existant armor.... uhm... how should we balance this out now.....

comparing a 65 tonner to a 75 tonner in armor values was your first problem. Your second was coming in already deciding that the Timberwolf was better, and any evidence otherwise is bullshit.

Lets compare the armor values of the 65 ton Hellbringer to the 75 ton Orion. Huh thats what 40 more points of armor. OMG plz pgi nerf the orion's armor values, it shouldn't be that high in comparison to the hellbringer.

[ztac]

It seems that every time PGI try to fix something they just make it worse.

Weapons and mechs should be put into 2 different category's for a start. Weapons need to be universally balanced , then mech's looked at on a mech by mech basis.

Simple but no doubt a long job. Part of the problem with quirks is that you can easily make a given weapon that is balanced become unbalanced once placed in a certain mech. The real problem is that someone did not think! Or maybe they thought too much about it and missed the obvious!

[Alienized]

ok so what you say is... that 13 tons are not 13 tons. no matter if its a 65 ton IS or a 75ton IS... yep. its 13 tons.
and calm your nipples.
ofc the the tbr is better since it has far superior equipment.

people-brainstorming for everyone to see why the TBR should be so much better overall than a thunderbolt.
because some people still dont get it and cry for a tbr nerf. nope. its just nope. it should not happen any further.
its enuff.


now about the hellbringer... i do some quotes:
"However, due to its poor armor, the Hellbringer is often passed over"
"Armor: Forging Omni-H24 (so no FF)"
"mounting a mere eight tons of Standard armor"

Edited by Aliisa White, 05 January 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[Burktross]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

There aren't any.

Outside of the 5SS & 9S, nothing else can compete against SCR, HBR & TBR in the 50 to 75 ton range.


It will be fun to watch most of the top comp teams suddenly switch back to clan.

50 tons? You're thinking too big.
I vote the cicada as tribute for the IS stormcrow.

This is my second day in this variant. 4th or so in the mech.
#cicadaoppgiplsnerf

Edited by Burktross, 05 January 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[Alienized]

the cicada... such a funny mech. but absolutely useless if it doesnt have mechs around that have the attention of the enemy.
man i been doing 980 damage with a -3M and a 4 med laser + ac2 loadout.... but it cant do anything on its own. its a backstabber and flanker. its hitboxes are too bad (propably even bigger than a SCR which has the sickets hitboxes of any mech)

[Koniks]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

Dual Gauss Jager mechs tend to be limited to XL engines, making them fragile.

They are also ammo dependant, and can't make the same kind of snapshots due to gauss charge up.

AC 5s are not sniping weapons at the ranges you see on Boreal, and both of those mechs have several glaring flaws - they are not even close to the same level as SCR, HBR and TBR - not to mention it is a sniper's game in that phase of CW, not a "stand there for extended face time DPSing". Doing that will see you cored quickly.

ERLL Shadowhawk is a good build but at 27 damage per alpha, it loses exchanges vs. Clan Laser vomit builds - which all 3 of the mechs I mentioned can bring, with Alphas in the 40 to 55 range.

Stalkers force tonnage compromises elsewhere, Quickdraws aren't even worth mentioning.

OP asked for what was next. It's obviously the case that there's no replacement that does exactly what the 9S does.

Those are some of the next best options.

AC5s on the quirked Dragon and Wolverine both hit out to about 700m before losing damage. They also put out roughly 12 DPS which is enough to basically keep pace with the ERML+ERLL combination. You fire 4 volleys for about 40 damage to their 1 volley. The Clan alpha runs between 40-52 max. But they start losing damage beyond 500m because of their ERML range. Their beam duration also means you can spread damage for 80% of their beam duration between your 1st and 2nd shot, then you still get 2 more uncontested shots.

It will obviously struggle a bit more against 4xERLL loadouts and Gauss+ERLL/ERPPC Dire Wolves.

But it makes up for some of that by being more effective in the post-snipe rush with its speed and sustained DPS. Hitboxes are a liability.

As pwndface pointed out, ammo dependency for the Jagermech isn't an issue. You get 30+ shots for a max of about 1000 damage during the first phase. So long as there's no C-Bill or XP penalty for ejecting, that's enough for one mech before having to trade for something better suited to the rest of the match.

The SHD has a DPS advantage because of its beam duration and heat efficiency. That makes it at least as good as the ERML+ERLL laser vomit though it's inferior to 4xERLL. It also has to expose less of itself because of the hardpoint location. And it has 2 shield arms and a full shield side.

Oh no, you have to take 2 Firestarters with your Stalker and up to 65-ton mech.

Quickdraw has 4xERLL, mobility, and a near-optimal tonnage efficiency. That's enough reasons to not overlook it.

Edited by Mizeur, 05 January 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Apnu]

Kassatsu, on 04 January 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Pretty much this. Even if you nerf the admittedly excessive heat quirks on the TDR, people will just find something else that's "OP". Ever watch a DRG-1N or WVR-6R flank a team and activate their disintegration beam while they're busy with the assault in front of them?

I love the WVR-6R, but I don' t play it like you have in your sig. That build is the definition of min/maxed. Yikes. Not my cup of tea. Those arms pop off too easily. I play mine with 3xSRM6+A. But I do the same thing. Flank and wreck stuff at close range.

[JC Daxion]

and see this is the exact problem for people calling for nerfs on one map... Instead of Nerfing mechs because they perform well on one map.. Why not add more maps, where those mechs are not the best to use?


Then, ok,, a drop on one map will give a certain mech an advantage.. Like a Dual Gauss cat on Alpine.. But that same mech dropped on canyon, or perhaps Frozen city, it just does not have the same effectiveness. (really any map that you can sneak right up to the mechs and be in brawl range.


Now i have yet to play my 9S, been to busy grinding in a hero with all the primetime bonuses going around! But as far as the game play in game verse them.. I have hardly found any of them something impossible to beat. and i have run into quite a few. get into brawl range, and they go down quite easy.. I've been running into them with my Jester, hardly a mech that people call over powered, but with Dual LL's and 4MPL's it can dish out 600-900 in a good match. But it is just a decent mech.