43 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 04 January 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

Note that I didn't literally ask for the 8 ballistic arm right now, because that specific omnipod would be batshit insane (in any timeline).

It was just an example of FASA admitting they made certain Omnis bad on purpose, and thus they attempted to give them less-bad loadouts to compensate (or at least, tried to).

I doubt any game developers intentionally make bad mechs--as it will not sell well. Actually, the Summoner Prime was a decent mech in TT with hard hitting weapons and great mobility, even with 3 hard points in total.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[WhoDidTheElf]

I think there are two things here that the Summoner ultimately makes the point of.

1) Endo is the difference maker between a crap mech and a Timbergod in many case.
2) Endo is such the difference, how do we implement it in a way that would be fair. I.e. case by case basis, or a blanket offering to all mechs, or make it a quirk on the CT of certain mechs.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

I doubt any game developers intentionally make bad mechs. Actually, the Summoner Prime was a decent mech in TT.

If you compare it to IS stock mechs at the time, probably. A min-maxer could whip up something deadlier in SSW though, maybe even using IS tech.

FASA made things like the Urbanmech, Charger, and various others, so I wouldn't put it past them...

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 04 January 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Nice write up, but I disagree with you on the ballistic cooldown & energy cooldown quirks.


Both of those stack with weapon modules, which the summoner can take two of, and both are utilized in the Gauss/CERPPC build.


The quirk buff is mech-wide, so you are only using the Prime RA for the quirk and then stripping the armor for tonnage.


RoF is more important when you have to lean on a few, larger, weapons.


Something like this, takes full advantage of those quirks + modules.

I honestly do not see that being fielded much, for whatever the reason. It amounts to being one of those Raven-3L type of snipers... it's a bit gimmicky. Once the Summoner-M's torso is released, there is likely to be more of that, in torso form.

Cooldown is good for every ballistic but MGs... velocity is good for most ballistics but MGs AND Gauss, which was kind of the goal of that change. Whenever I use the Gauss cooldown modules, it syncs a lot better with CERMEDs (I can only imagine its effect with ERPPCs ontop of everything else).

Quote

Ballistic velocity is almost irrelevant for Gauss, the Summoner can't comfortably do more than 2x UAC 2s without stripping heavily from armor and/or going low on ammo - leaving you with something like one UAC 10 or one UAC 20.

So I'm not convinced this would actually be a better buff than CD reduction for ballistics, although it would be welcome for CERPPCs.

Every single time I see any sort of AC other than LBX, it's a lost cause... unless you're a Dire Wolf stuffing them to the max. It's hard to view any Clan AC/UAC as a good option compared to CLBX... but somehow CLBX5 manages to really disappoint me...even with closing distance.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Deathlike, on 04 January 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

I honestly do not see that being fielded much, for whatever the reason. It amounts to being one of those Raven-3L type of snipers... it's a bit gimmicky. Once the Summoner-M's torso is released, there is likely to be more of that, in torso form.

Cooldown is good for every ballistic but MGs... velocity is good for most ballistics but MGs AND Gauss, which was kind of the goal of that change. Whenever I use the Gauss cooldown modules, it syncs a lot better with CERMEDs (I can only imagine its effect with ERPPCs ontop of everything else).




Every single time I see any sort of AC other than LBX, it's a lost cause... unless you're a Dire Wolf stuffing them to the max. It's hard to view any Clan AC/UAC as a good option compared to CLBX... but somehow CLBX5 manages to really disappoint me...even with closing distance.

Just admit you need to L2P. Everyone knows if you toss a Gauss and a PPC on it, you'll break 1000 dmg all day long.

[Wintersdark]

Illya Arkhipova, on 04 January 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Just admit you need to L2P. Everyone knows if you toss a Gauss and a PPC on it, you'll break 1000 dmg all day long.

Totally tier 2. A website told me, so it has to be true.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 04 January 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

Every single time I see any sort of AC other than LBX, it's a lost cause... unless you're a Dire Wolf stuffing them to the max. It's hard to view any Clan AC/UAC as a good option compared to CLBX... but somehow CLBX5 manages to really disappoint me...even with closing distance.

well, there's two angles to this.

First, the LBX's are generally better than the Carl's, except the LBXAC2 which is superior to the UAC2 but inferior to the AC2 (UAC and AC have different stats). But, then your picking the prettiest flower in the trashcan; all three clan AC2's are worse than IS AC2's which still aren't good.

Ultimately, clan LBX's are bad for all the same reasons IS LBXAC10 is bad... It's just the the regular C(U)AC's are so terrible, the difference isn't so extreme.

Clan ballistics are unspeakably bad, except of course the Gauss.

Sadly, like with mechs, the forums are full of halfway with 1000 damage game scoreboards insisting that because They Do Fine With Theirs, they are clearly all right and people just need to L2P.

*grumbles*

I want a good Summoner, because I'm a long time fan of the Mech. But I want non-terrible ballistics even more.

... Sorry, got distracted ranting. Anyways, I'm sure I managed to convey my disgruntlement at the state of affairs.

[Deathlike]

Illya Arkhipova, on 04 January 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Just admit you need to L2P. Everyone knows if you toss a Gauss and a PPC on it, you'll break 1000 dmg all day long.

Not sure if serious...

Wintersdark, on 05 January 2015 - 12:02 AM, said:

Totally tier 2. A website told me, so it has to be true.

I have had some good games, but had to work for it. However, I wish it didn't suck that much more than a Hellbringer, let alone a Timberwolf.

If the Summoner is Tier 2, then the Adder is Tier 2... and the Mist Lynx is god tier.

Wintersdark, on 05 January 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

well, there's two angles to this.

First, the LBX's are generally better than the Carl's, except the LBXAC2 which is superior to the UAC2 but inferior to the AC2 (UAC and AC have different stats). But, then your picking the prettiest flower in the trashcan; all three clan AC2's are worse than IS AC2's which still aren't good.

Ultimately, clan LBX's are bad for all the same reasons IS LBXAC10 is bad... It's just the the regular C(U)AC's are so terrible, the difference isn't so extreme.

Clan ballistics are unspeakably bad, except of course the Gauss.

Sadly, like with mechs, the forums are full of halfway with 1000 damage game scoreboards insisting that because They Do Fine With Theirs, they are clearly all right and people just need to L2P.

*grumbles*

I want a good Summoner, because I'm a long time fan of the Mech. But I want non-terrible ballistics even more.

... Sorry, got distracted ranting. Anyways, I'm sure I managed to convey my disgruntlement at the state of affairs.

Well, at some point I'd like to think dual Clan LBX5s would be equal or better than the Clan LBX10...

We can't have nice things.

[Navid A1]

Illya Arkhipova, on 04 January 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Just admit you need to L2P. Everyone knows if you toss a Gauss and a PPC on it, you'll break 1000 dmg all day long.

I can tell you...that is not true... maybe 1 game or 2...but ...nope.!

Wintersdark, on 05 January 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

...
Sadly, like with mechs, the forums are full of halfway with 1000 damage game scoreboards insisting that because They Do Fine With Theirs, they are clearly all right and people just need to L2P.

*grumbles*
...

that is kinda true
I dont know how... but this build worked pretty well:
SMN-PRIME
while it shouldn't have.

[Erkki]

I think we'll get to 3051 at some point... Not only would the Summoner M with torso energy hardpoint become possible/available, but there would also be the chance to see the Dart, the Wolf Trap, the Mauler and 2 re-seen variants of the Marauder....

[Yosharian]

Summoner isn't a bad mech, it just needs a few nice quirks to off-set the ******** Ferro-Fibrous armor

edit: really?

ok fine, the DUMB Ferro-Fibrous armor

Edited by Yosharian, 05 January 2015 - 06:07 AM.

[CygnusX7]

Navid A1, on 05 January 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

I can tell you...that is not true... maybe 1 game or 2...but ...nope.!


that is kinda true
I dont know how... but this build worked pretty well:
SMN-PRIME
while it shouldn't have.

That's how I leveled all of mine and ended up with decent W/L and K/D ratios.

[mogs01gt]

Yosharian, on 05 January 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Summoner isn't a bad mech, it just needs a few nice quirks to off-set the ******** Ferro-Fibrous armor
edit: really?
ok fine, the DUMB Ferro-Fibrous armor

When compared to the TBR, Crow or Hellbringer, its a bad mech.

It has more than just omnipod issues:

offset cockpit makes SRMs hit to the left of your cross hairs
Low mounted arms + high mounted cockput = you shooting into the ground
Limited weapon hardpoint, loss of weapons = a HUGE loss in DPS
Only a bit more agile than TBR-S
not enough crit space for sustain brawling(lack of DHS)
small arms = ST's taking most of the damage

Everything you want in a mech is not in a Summoner other than its a dream to pilot. Handles fantastically, the high mounted cockpit and decent torso twist.

[Ursh]

When even most Atlas builds make a point out of fitting Endosteel, restricting it from clan mechs seems pretty silly.

The clans had better engineers than the IS, if everyone and their mother can kit out 100 ton assault mechs with endo steel, I think the clans should be able to as well, because the most bitched about clan mechs have the es/ff combo already, except the DW, which doesn't need it.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Navid A1, on 05 January 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

I can tell you...that is not true... maybe 1 game or 2...but ...nope.!


that is kinda true
I dont know how... but this build worked pretty well:
SMN-PRIME
while it shouldn't have.

Just because you get wrekt all the time doesn't mean the mech is the issue. Real pros can use the Summoner all day long, nub!

And that build is terribad. I can say so because I am obviously 1337!

[a gaijin]

Deathlike, on 05 January 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

I have had some good games, but had to work for it. However, I wish it [Summoner] didn't suck that much more than a Hellbringer, let alone a Timberwolf.

If the Summoner is Tier 2, then the Adder is Tier 2... and the Mist Lynx is god tier.


We can't have nice things.

Do you still feel this way or feel it has changed? I was still not playing when you made these remarks?

[RestosIII]

Star Commander Horse, on 26 January 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

Do you still feel this way or feel it has changed? I was still not playing when you made these remarks?

You're a damn dirty necromancer, that's what you are. Burn him! Burn him before he brings our loved ones back for his army!

[Deathlike]

Star Commander Horse, on 26 January 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

Do you still feel this way or feel it has changed? I was still not playing when you made these remarks?

You could've asked in a new thread.. instead of necroposting...

I don't have the loyalty Summoner omnipods, so I couldn't tell you.

Without them, the Summoner really does keep it's Suckoner status. I'm doing too much knuckle dragging with PPCs. Optimal mech variant is the D version as it has +9 torso yaw that no other Summoner has (it hasn't been fixed yet) and the worst variants are still the hero and the Prime variant (the loyalty variants are apparently immune to nerfs or something).

Weirdest omnipods are the D as well (I don't understand given how dakka-tonnage unfriendly it is) and the best omnipods for PPCs involve many of the Prime's omnipods (torsos and right arm) and the left arm of the D for range.

If/when I get access to the omnipods, it's a more complete mech, with some flaws.

[a gaijin]

RestosIII, on 26 January 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

You're a damn dirty necromancer, that's what you are. Burn him! Burn him before he brings our loved ones back for his army!

Guilty as charged
In your name...is that three capital i's or three small L's?

Deathlike, on 26 January 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

You could've asked in a new thread.. instead of necroposting...

I don't have the loyalty Summoner omnipods, so I couldn't tell you.

Without them, the Summoner really does keep it's Suckoner status. I'm doing too much knuckle dragging with PPCs. Optimal mech variant is the D version as it has +9 torso yaw that no other Summoner has (it hasn't been fixed yet) and the worst variants are still the hero and the Prime variant (the loyalty variants are apparently immune to nerfs or something).

Weirdest omnipods are the D as well (I don't understand given how dakka-tonnage unfriendly it is) and the best omnipods for PPCs involve many of the Prime's omnipods (torsos and right arm) and the left arm of the D for range.

If/when I get access to the omnipods, it's a more complete mech, with some flaws.

I'm trying to be electronically ecological?

I agree with you that it is TOUGH piloting the standard PPC-in-the-arms SMN.
D variant is best match for me (pretty much all I use).
The loyalty variant is hit hard by the nerfs. I can say from first hand experience it is so much hotter that sustained fire is nowhere near possible as before. A lot more pausing to run away and cool down. And overheating and getting killed that way as well...or hitting override trying to stay in the fight...baking myself, then popping

But point is this: as far as your experience goes, Summoner is still pretty average then?

[RestosIII]

Star Commander Horse, on 26 January 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

Guilty as charged
In your name...is that three capital i's or three small L's?

Three i's. Restos the Third is the actual name, just used to shortening it.

And Suckonners are still holding their title strong if they don't have the loyalty pods.