78 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

Khobai, on 05 January 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

not really.

ERPPCs have travel time and only go 1000m/s. Theyre super easy to dodge at long range especially in a mech with decent acceleration/deceleration like the stormcrow.

Conversely my stormcrows ERLLs hit instantly at max range. At ranges of 1000m-1500m the accuracy advantage of hitscan over projectile weapons simply cannot be denied.

not to mention ERPPC usage for IS is limited to ONE mech in four. While ALL four clan mechs can use ERLLs.

IS may have the weapon with the longest max range. But clans have the range advantage. PERIOD.

I guess you didn't realize that there are IS chassis that can match or exceed C-ERLL range with IS ERLL...

[ztac]

@Rhaythe you wasted your time typing that all out ..... If you knew the game and read previous posts you would have read about HEAT and Quirks! these change everything......

@Khobai you have to see incoming to dodge .. and if you get hit by a laser.... move into cover... torso twist ... use JJ etc etc ... also clan lasers have a longer burn time!

Comparing laser to laser is not the way to go either due to other variables ... quirks.. heat .. burn time... recharge time, then we have the slots / weight argument which again has it's flaws due to just what you can fit into clan mechs due to limited slots and creates heat management problems... people need t realise it is not all black and white.. but a lot of grey too!

There is always more to it than simple numbers......

+Not to mention the better weapon systems IS has period over the clans (AC and LRM) and as for IS lights vs Clan lights.. no contest really. But you have to feel that the reasoning behind these is that PGI do not want to alienate a certain type of player from the game! (player numbers seems low due to long wait times and poor matchmaking which implies that the system is being loosened to find players).

Edited by ztac, 05 January 2015 - 01:21 PM.

[pwnface]

Yoseful Mallad, on 05 January 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

i want to point out that while IS weapons gap is closed a bit with the added help of weapon range modules but even that isn't enough to say iS weapons range is on par with Clan range... Because Clans also have range modules lol. And this just extends them right back out to the initial range as if no one even has modules lol. In fact modules actually help clan mechs a bit more. Take a IS ERLL and CLan ERLL and look at their standard ranges. The Clan ER has a better range. Now add a 10% range boost to both for having the ERLL range maxed module and 10% on the Clan ERLL is still greater than 10% on the IS ERLL range boost. Clans still come out on top lol

You aren't considering IS range quirks at all...

[Cragger]

I really don't get why anyone cries about the 9s. I don't even use 3 ERPPC on my 9s I prefer to stick to two with good convergence and then medium pulse lasers for up close work. Is the heat generation quirks a touch over stacked? Yeah probably needs to get cut down to 33% instead of 50% but the range is a non issue to me. Isn't like it is hard to close the distance unless your in a slowboat assault.

But clanners had to expect these quirks for IS to stay up with the clan mechs since the clanners seem to want to have their cake (Better tech) but not deal with the belly ache (honor code and self imposed limitations) that made clans need to have the better tech to even be a threat.

[Rhaythe]

ztac, on 05 January 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

@Rhaythe you wasted your time typing that all out ..... If you knew the game and read previous posts you would have read about HEAT and Quirks!  these change everything......

I mentioned both heat and quirks, so I have no idea what you're talking about. The initial argument was *range*. Whether you factor in heat, burn time, whatever - Clans beat IS at range. Unequivocally. Even quirks are not the end-all-be-all. The best IS medium laser quirk is 12.5 (25% combined with generic energy) percent. So, 67.5 meters. Add a 10% range boost to from a module for 27 meters, and you get a grand total of ~364.5 meters. Which is STILL short of the C-ERML range of 405m. Clans win range. You can't argue with that.

Now like I said in my post, that doesn't mean Clan-tech is OP. These factors are slightly mitigated by other arguments like burn time and heat, but ton-for-ton, Clans will win the range battle.

Edited by Rhaythe, 05 January 2015 - 01:25 PM.

[Trygger]

Why are the clan so reluctant on allowing crosstech if they truly believe they do not have a mech and weapon advantage over the IS?

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Trygger, on 05 January 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Why are the clan so reluctant on allowing crosstech if they truly believe they do not have a mech and weapon advantage over the IS?

Because it's not right for the current timeline lore wise, and would make it less immersive.

[Trygger]

Well if you want to get anywhere close to lore then Clan should definitely not be allowed to use artillery or air strikes. I understand it is impossible to implement most of the clan lore rules of warfare, but blocking arty and air strikes should be rather simple.

[Lily from animove]

Rhaythe, on 05 January 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

SL: 135m
C-ERSL: 200m
Diff: 33%

ML: 270m
C-ERML: 405m
Diff: 34%

LL: 450m
ER-LL: 675m
C-ERLL: 740m
Diff: 40% || 9%

PPC: 540m
ER-PPC: 810m
C-ERPPC: 810m
Diff: 33% || 0%

SPL: 110m
C-SPL: 165m
Diff: 34%

MPL: 220m
C-MPL: 330m
Diff: 34%

LPL: 365m
C-LPL: 600
Diff: 40%

Flamer: 90m
C-Flamer: 90m
Diff: 0%

Numbers are numbers. Clans have range. Clans have damage. Clans have heat. A few outsiders, obviously. But those are the numbers. Clans do more damage at greater range by generating more heat. There is no way to dispute that. There are, of course, ways for the IS currently to extend their range via modules (which clans also have) or quirks. But out of the box, and in the vast majority of IS vs Clan battles, Clans WILL win the range war when it comes to energy weapons.

I am not claiming ClanTech is OP (it's not). I'm just posting numbers that prove Clan weapons *do* have larger range. Take that for what you will.

and thats why IS shoudl use the heat efficiency advantage, i mena there are gates you don't have to snipe over them you can go in CW rather close . an then IS has the upper hand with cooler weapons and better AC's + some mechs with quirks. Yet I see so many still tyring to outsnipe the clanners at hopeless ranges.

Trygger, on 05 January 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Why are the clan so reluctant on allowing crosstech if they truly believe they do not have a mech and weapon advantage over the IS?

because only if clanners are allowed to change engines/ES/FF as well, otherwise IS can take the advantage of fully customizeable mechs + clanweapons. yet having regular medium lasers for clanlights and some mediums would be great because the heatefficiency is a lot better. So not all is an disadvantage for crosstech, clanners with IS AC's awwww that would be epic.

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 January 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

Trygger, on 05 January 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Well if you want to get anywhere close to lore then Clan should definitely not be allowed to use artillery or air strikes. I understand it is impossible to implement most of the clan lore rules of warfare, but blocking arty and air strikes should be rather simple.

Untrue. While Clans did not rely as heavily on such, they did in fact have artillery units and used aerotech strafing runs and all that. They tended to do 1v1 fights when following zellbrigen or whatever, but to say that clans never used and should not be allowed artillery and airstrikes is an incorrect assumption from the lore, I feel.

[That Token Canadian Guy]

It seems the clan guys can not do math, how can you figure IS has a range advantage when for example, Med lasers on clan have further reach then IS . That goes for all lasers btw, ERPPC is equal to IS unless the clanner puts in a targeting comp.Then the clan has further range. Maybe just all around stop complaining because you are losing and start working with your team to win. Stop blaming the weapons and realize CLANS HAVE THE ADVANTAGE. Simple math boys and girls... wtf is wrong with you all.

PS . Manage your heat properly on any mech! If you can't manage your heat , you need to build a mech you can manage!

AND Lily can do math . LEARN from Lily

Edited by daxiazun, 05 January 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[Sagamore]

Rhaythe, on 05 January 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

SL: 135m
C-ERSL: 200m
Diff: 33%

ML: 270m
C-ERML: 405m
Diff: 34%

LL: 450m
ER-LL: 675m
C-ERLL: 740m
Diff: 40% || 9%

PPC: 540m
ER-PPC: 810m
C-ERPPC: 810m
Diff: 33% || 0%

SPL: 110m
C-SPL: 165m
Diff: 34%

MPL: 220m
C-MPL: 330m
Diff: 34%

LPL: 365m
C-LPL: 600
Diff: 40%

Flamer: 90m
C-Flamer: 90m
Diff: 0%

Numbers are numbers. Clans have range. Clans have damage. Clans have heat. A few outsiders, obviously. But those are the numbers. Clans do more damage at greater range by generating more heat. There is no way to dispute that. There are, of course, ways for the IS currently to extend their range via modules (which clans also have) or quirks. But out of the box, and in the vast majority of IS vs Clan battles, Clans WILL win the range war when it comes to energy weapons.

I am not claiming ClanTech is OP (it's not). I'm just posting numbers that prove Clan weapons *do* have larger range. Take that for what you will.

And Clan benefits more from range modules than IS since it is % based.

[Lily from animove]

Sagamore, on 05 January 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

And Clan benefits more from range modules than IS since it is % based.

in return IS benefits from most Cooldown modules because they don't have spay ac's or longer burn duration lasers. and with the higher heat fo clanweapons most cooldown modules on many clan weapons are nonsense to begin with anyways.

both sides have differences and advantages, but yet many people can not even define the difference, so how should they even build or further pilot a mech using these advantages? They can't and then everything seems to be bad and op.

Edited by Lily from animove, 05 January 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Aethon]

Something I do not see being brought up very often: the height of Clan weapon hardpoints, as compared to IS sniping platforms. Most Clan energy hardpoints are at waist level, approximately, and spread out very widely. As a result, trying to snipe without either hitting the hill/objects you are behind, hitting the hill you are walking around, or shooting allies in the back as you all try to engage the target simultaneously.

I cannot overstate the difference of skill and care required for sniping with better-located weapon hardpoints, as opposed to poorly-optimized hardpoints.

Then, many Clan mechs have hard-mounted equipment that blocks the ideal placement of certain weapons, and the fact that our weapons generate more heat, yet we still have no real DHS. This leads to heat problems when brawling.

So, to summarize: Clan mechs tend to have low available weapon weight, which leads to heavier energy weapon loadouts, which means we have heat problems when brawling, we also have almost no pinpoint, front-loaded damage weaponry, pretty terrible weapon hardpoint locations, and long-duration beam weaponry. Most stock configurations are rather short on armor as well, so the available pod space numbers you see people throwing around tend to be inflated.

Yes, we have a minor range advantage that we cannot even use in most cases, and a weapon tonnage advantage; we pay for it rather dearly, in the long run.

Edited by Aethon, 05 January 2015 - 03:16 PM.

[KuroNyra]

3CLIPZ3, on 05 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Please keep this from turning into another nerf/OP thread.

I just noticed that when playing CW as clan, the IS seems to be easily dominating the clans in range battles, (so bad that clans have a really tough time pushing even past the Bor Gate. Is this probably from the fact that nearly every IS has a 9S 3or4PPC in the deck? It seems that most of my deaths have been from 9S's at least from the snipe battles.

They have it on the paper. On the practice, it is much more different.

On the Artic Map in defense Clans can indeed make great use of that range advantage, especially at the beginning when the Barbarian Spheroid are trying to open the gates.
But Inner Sphere got his own weapons who can rivalise with them, some of them can even be superior for sniping. (> ThunderBolt 9S)

It is an advantage, but it won't be that advantage who will mak the battle.

[Lily from animove]

Aethon, on 05 January 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Something I do not see being brought up very often: the height of Clan weapon hardpoints, as compared to IS sniping platforms. Most Clan energy hardpoints are at waist level, approximately, and spread out very widely. As a result, trying to snipe without either hitting the hill/objects you are behind, hitting the hill you are walking around, or shooting allies in the back as you all try to engage the target simultaneously.

I cannot overstate the difference of skill and care required for sniping with better-located weapon hardpoints, as opposed to poorly-optimized hardpoints.

Then, many Clan mechs have hard-mounted equipment that blocks the ideal placement of certain weapons, and the fact that our weapons generate more heat, yet we still have no real DHS. This leads to heat problems when brawling.

So, to summarize: Clan mechs tend to have low available weapon weight, which leads to heavier energy weapon loadouts, which means we have heat problems when brawling, we also have almost no pinpoint, front-loaded damage weaponry, pretty terrible weapon hardpoint locations, and long-duration beam weaponry. Most stock configurations are rather short on armor as well, so the available pod space numbers you see people throwing around tend to be inflated.

Yes, we have a minor range advantage that we cannot even use in most cases, and a weapon tonnage advantage; we pay for it rather dearly, in the long run.

and guess who are the borderline op clanners? those with the high mountpoints, SCR and TBr, which to hav some very advantaged Torso mountpoints, I cna not describe how often exactly those mountpoints made the total differenc ein piloting thes emehcs to success.

this match


was the prime example of epic hardpoint usage, thw atlas was left in a good shape and me on HPG, he was a great pilot as well, yet he had not really a chance I just was spitting flashbubbles on his steel bald while he could not shoot back because the torso mountpoints of the SCR only allowed me a line of sight and fire at his head (CT) while he could not shoot back. in probably no other clanmech than an adder would have this match turned out to my favour, because others don't had those hardpoints. And many IS mechs have great hardpoints, the CTF's have good Torso Mountpoints, Stalkers and Jeagers, the chciken leg lights. They have great advantages but hadly one is using them. But thats ok, makes my gaming life easier xD

currntly the HBR is the only unicorn mech we can get on clannersside having an superhighmounted hardpoint. but it can not fit an LPL or ERPPC, and CERLL beamduration is crap, so its not that great at all.

[Thorqemada]

IS does not have U/AC10s and 20s...of course a Colldown Mod will increase your DPS and no AC10/20 Quirk the IS has can compete with them.
I found it especially easy to leg Mechs (all Weigthclasses) with them in the Beta Tests - and Hit Reg has gotten better since then?

Clan Streaks be not SRM - they be MRM!

The IS does not have a range Advantage - some IS Mechs can come close to compete at some ranges...

Lurms Need a Los or a Spotter - you can kill eiher the Lurmboat or the Spotter - UAVs have a rather short range and can easily be destroyed - Narcs to have a rather restricted range and a good Anti Light defense would handle Narcers pretty well.
AMS is low in weight...Clans have even a decent ECM Heavy.

At no range is the Clan at a disadvantage!

Edited by Thorqemada, 05 January 2015 - 03:41 PM.

[Mystere]

Rhaythe, on 05 January 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

Now like I said in my post, that doesn't mean Clan-tech is OP. These factors are slightly mitigated by other arguments like burn time and heat, but ton-for-ton, Clans will win the range battle.

Clans will win the range battle only on very low terrain maps. Any terrain features that go above Clan Mech arms can and do negate that advantage. And maps that have short sight lines also negate that advantage.

Consider this. How many Clan Mechs can fire their weapons while exposing only the upper half of their torso? How many IS Mechs can do the same?

This is why using just raw weapon numbers in any Clan vs. IS debate is woefully inadequate. There are other things beyond the weapons and even Mechs themselves that have to be in the "debate".

This also provides a clue on how balancing beyond mere weapons and Mechs can be done. But you can only do that if you go beyond what I call "one-dimensional thinking".

[Hydrocarbon]

ztac, on 05 January 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

@Rhaythe you wasted your time typing that all out ..... If you knew the game and read previous posts you would have read about HEAT and Quirks! these change everything......

Any player worth his salt will know how to counter a known loadout. IS mechs that are "so OP" are basically boxed into a known loadout, so Clanners can use their advanced zoom via targeting comp's to figure out what the IS opfor is fielding.

TDR-9S? Oh, must be ERPPC's and likely an XL.

Stromcrow? Hmm, is it an SRM, LRM, or energy boat??

Timberwolf? Hmm, is it an SRM boat or LRM boat? Wait, I don't think those ears are tall enough, must be a...hmm, UAC, gauss, or energy boat??


Quirks only affect a few chassis, and to elite an IS chassis you still have to play 1-2 ****** mechs first. Clan mechs can move nearly an entire build between all 3 variants. I won't even mention the omnipod EXP bonus...whoops, I just did. FYI if you've read this far, I've often had my TDR-9S with 3 ERPPC's get eaten up by ERLL Stormcrows - they focused on a side torso, knowing EXACTLY what my build needed(XL300) to no break the quirk bonus.

Also look at alpha strike numbers possible. The majority of clan mechs can have a higher alpha than most IS mechs...even with a side torso blown off!

Last thing I'll mention is how cooldown modules suck. There are precious few IS mechs that can benifit from them. IS DHS's take up 3 crits not two, and most IS mechs can't boat a single type of weapon. In the end that module allows you to do 10% more damage for a few more seconds before your overtaxed DHS's are nearly overheating.

[Kiiyor]

3CLIPZ3, on 05 January 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Please keep this from turning into another nerf/OP thread.

I just noticed that when playing CW as clan, the IS seems to be easily dominating the clans in range battles, (so bad that clans have a really tough time pushing even past the Bor Gate. Is this probably from the fact that nearly every IS has a 9S 3or4PPC in the deck? It seems that most of my deaths have been from 9S's at least from the snipe battles.

I think that the 'Sphere has one mech with a range advantage, but it's not like the Clans are completely helpless against it. It just so happens that the PPFLD nature of those three PPC's trumps Clan laser vomit at long range.

There are probably builds that can counter it, but it appears that all the Clanners running about are reluctant to change their meta to counter just the one 'Sphere mech. I know some of my intrepid fellow pilots have had success running Gauss against them, but this takes away some of the fabled "good at everything-ness" that MadCats and DoomCrows are famous for.