78 replies to this topic

[Joe Mallad]

CHH Badkarma, on 05 January 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

So you want to compare a quirk, that costs no money, has no weight and takes up zero space to an item that has weight, takes up space and cost money? Not to mention scales very poorly in regard to its weight and space per tc level.

You simply cant compare them for that reason. Quirts are free in every regard. Zero weight, zero space and no cost. Win win.

TCs, yeah, not even close. Very poor performance return for the weight and crit requirements

omg! Can we stop complaing about the quirks? clans are getting theirs. They won't be as extreme as IS quirks but you'll get quirks.

[Khobai]

Quote

So you want to compare a quirk, that costs no money, has no weight and takes up zero space to an item that has weight, takes up space and cost money? Not to mention scales very poorly in regard to its weight and space per tc level.

You simply cant compare them for that reason. Quirts are free in every regard. Zero weight, zero space and no cost. Win win.

I disagree.

Because I can put a targeting computer on the best clan mech.

But I cant put any quirk I want on the best IS mech. I have to use the mech that comes with those quirks.

In general quirks are better. But there are definite advantages to the targeting computer as well. Especially when clan mechs get quirks of their own which the targeting computer will stack with.

Edited by Khobai, 05 January 2015 - 07:41 PM.

[CHH Badkarma]

Yoseful Mallad, on 05 January 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

omg! Can we stop complaing about the quirks? clans are getting theirs. They won't be as extreme as IS quirks but you'll get quirks.

Man, relax. I wasnt complaining. I did say "win win". No need to be so defensive. I was only stating the pros and cons of both

Edited by CHH Badkarma, 05 January 2015 - 07:41 PM.

[Mystere]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 January 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

I'm not really sure. It's kinda hard to figure out how to have that translate over from TT.

If we still had convergence proper, then it'd be pretty obvious. In the current state though? I'm not really sure how I'd do it...

Yes, proper convergence would have been a really great feature and could be a solution to problems related to high-alpha damage, which is one of the root causes of these arguments about weapons.

CHH Badkarma, on 05 January 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

So you want to compare a quirk, that costs no money, has no weight and takes up zero space to an item that has weight, takes up space and cost money? Not to mention scales very poorly in regard to its weight and space per tc level.

You simply cant compare them for that reason. Quirts are free in every regard. Zero weight, zero space and no cost. Win win.

TCs, yeah, not even close. Very poor performance return for the weight and crit requirements

Yes, because they are part of the game and as such I want people to consider them in formulating their arguments, instead of just using raw weapons numbers.

My objective has been met by your answer.

Khobai, on 05 January 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

I disagree.

Because I can put a targeting computer on the best clan mech.

But I cant put any quirk I want on the best IS mech. I have to use the mech that comes with those quirks.

In general quirks are better. But there are definite advantages to the targeting computer as well. Especially when clan mechs get quirks of their own which the targeting computer will stack with.

Well said.

Edited by Mystere, 05 January 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

CHH Badkarma, on 05 January 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

Man, relax. I wasnt complaining. I did say "win win". No need to be so defensive. I was only stating the pros and cons of both

fair enough. I digress.

[xX PUG Xx]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Are you sure it was really splash and not actually a head shot?

The dozen or so glowing balls of death that lit up the cockpit were very pretty, there was probably a gauss round or two in there as well. If nothing else it was a spectacular show of focus fire and stupidity from me for sticking my scrawny 'Mechs head up at the same place twice.

The side and centre torsos were stripped of armour and the cockpit was well..... gone man , just gone.

Edited by xX PUG Xx, 05 January 2015 - 10:56 PM.

[Sagamore]

Lily from animove, on 05 January 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

in return IS benefits from most Cooldown modules because they don't have spay ac's or longer burn duration lasers. and with the higher heat fo clanweapons most cooldown modules on many clan weapons are nonsense to begin with anyways.

both sides have differences and advantages, but yet many people can not even define the difference, so how should they even build or further pilot a mech using these advantages? They can't and then everything seems to be bad and op.

A fair point but the topic of this discussion is "do clans truly have a range advantage"

[pwnface]

Sagamore, on 06 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

A fair point but the topic of this discussion is "do clans truly have a range advantage"

The average clan mech probably enjoys range advantage over an average IS mech.

A few quirked, dedicated sniper IS mechs may outperform clan mechs slightly at longer ranges

Honestly, it is pretty damn close IMO although the clans really should get a heavy 2xGauss platform.

[Lily from animove]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 January 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

Well the thing (that I REALLY, REALLY hate about the quirk system) is that on IS mechs, and LPL isn't an LPL.

LPL base stats:
-11 damage
-7 heat
-365m range
-0.67s beam duration

LPL on VTR-9B:
-11 damage
-7 heat
-365m range
-0.72s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

LPL on BLR-1G:
-11 damage
-6.3 heat
-401.5m range
-0.607s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

LPL on WVR-6K:
-11 damage
-5.25 heat
-547.5m range
-0.72 beam duration
-2.43s cooldown


While on Clan mechs, a C-LPL is a C-LPL is a C-LPL regardless of the chassis it's on.

C-LPL base stats:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

C-LPL on Warhawk:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

C-LPL on Timberwolf:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

C-LPL on Stormcrow:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown


I mean, Weapon X doing A, B, and C regardless of if it's on Mech X, Y, or Z is kinda sorta what makes Battletech, and to a large extent Mechwarrior, what it is.

so you hate that some mechs basically get free modules? lol

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 January 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[ice trey]

Do clans have truly have range advantage?

If the inner sphere are playing with a broad mix of mechs? Yes.

If the inner sphere are playing with only ERPPC Thunderbolts and other Min-maxed, number-crunched, "Win in the mechbay" builds? no.

That you can't compete with clanners, all other things being equal, unless you're using cookie-cutter optimized builds does concern me. if anything, the quirks as they are have made the cookie-cutter build syndrome even worse.

Edited by ice trey, 06 January 2015 - 03:18 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

ice trey, on 06 January 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

Do clans have truly have range advantage?

If the inner sphere are playing with a broad mix of mechs? Yes.

If the inner sphere are playing with only ERPPC Thunderbolts and other Min-maxed, number-crunched, "Win in the mechbay" builds? no.

That you can't compete with clanners, all other things being equal, unless you're using cookie-cutter optimized builds does concern me. if anything, the quirks as they are have made the cookie-cutter build syndrome even worse.

The only two proper sniping weapons are gausses and ERLLs.
Gausses are hands down IS advantage simply because Clans don't have Mechs that can meaningfully take 2 of them. Also, no quirks.
ERLLs, Clans have some advantage in range but huge disadvantage in longer beam duration, heat and missing quirks. Whether that is enough to say ERLLs are better than CERLLs I leave up to you but suffices to say that they are at least on par.

I leave the current ERPPC Thunderbolt aside for this one, without the incomming Nerfs it would be another clear win for IS but since it will get somehow nerfed it will only remain a small + for IS. If they keep the velocity high it will still be very powerful but I hope they nerf that to oblivion.

All in all, in a LR department IS has a nice position. Clans may get their quirks, yes, but they are out for 6 months, they don't have them yet and there is not even an ETA on that. So please, pardon my scepticism.

[Joseph Mallan]

ztac, on 05 January 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

IS have the range advantage period..... The real problem is that people seem to have adopted a mantra of 'The clans are OP' without actually knowing why people say they are OP... when someone try's to explain they just get cut down with a flawed argument.

The real problem is poor IS builds ... If someone in the IS gets the right mech with the right build it is OP! ...... IS mechs have a lot of advantages in a lot of areas , whatever advantage the clans did have vanished while back although their last bastion may well be the range of lasers , but people forget that Clans are heat intensive and shutdown all too easy if pushed!

IS get longer range on LRM and stupid range on ERPPC ! other weapons I cant say I've looked at in great detail but these two are the best right now!

If this statement is true, then The Clans need to be quirked as well. IS players are meant to be at a tech disadvantage but have superior numbers. The problem is players don't WANT to press the numbers advantage when they can have BOTH the Tech and more players cause the good gear is in Clan hands. Or at least it was supposed to be. Ya'll got screwed on front loaded damage.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Lily from animove, on 06 January 2015 - 01:29 AM, said:

so you hate that some mechs basically get free modules? lol

In essence, yeah. I'm also not a fan of the weapon module system either.

If a weapon or mech has to be quirked over 15% to 20% then it's clearly nowhere near balanced if it has to be propped up that much.

In TT, a PPC was a PPC was a PPC was a PPC.

In MWO, a PPC on a Victor is vastly inferior to a PPC on an Awesome. The Victor got paltry quirks and yet it's still VASTLY superior to the Awesome. Why is the Awesome still a garbage tier mech? Because it has shitboxes and a crappy engine cap.

ice trey, on 06 January 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

Do clans have truly have range advantage?
That you can't compete with clanners, all other things being equal, unless you're using cookie-cutter optimized builds does concern me. if anything, the quirks as they are have made the cookie-cutter build syndrome even worse.

I'm glad someone understands this.

[Jman5]

ztac, on 05 January 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

IS have the range advantage period..... The real problem is that people seem to have adopted a mantra of 'The clans are OP' without actually knowing why people say they are OP... when someone try's to explain they just get cut down with a flawed argument.

The real problem is poor IS builds ... If someone in the IS gets the right mech with the right build it is OP! ...... IS mechs have a lot of advantages in a lot of areas , whatever advantage the clans did have vanished while back although their last bastion may well be the range of lasers , but people forget that Clans are heat intensive and shutdown all too easy if pushed!

IS get longer range on LRM and stupid range on ERPPC ! other weapons I cant say I've looked at in great detail but these two are the best right now!

What?

Quote

IS get longer range on LRM

They're both 1,000 meters. In fact Clans have the range advantage here because they can still do some damage to mechs under 180 meters. There is only one LRM specific range quirk and it's on an Awesome.

Quote

stupid range on ERPPC

ER PPC and Clan ER PPC ranges are identical. And the one IS mech that everyone brings to matches with ER PPCs does not have a range quirk.

If you want to research the topic some more, I suggest reading these two links:

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

http://snafets.de/mwo/quirks.htm

Edited by Jman5, 06 January 2015 - 10:04 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Mott, on 05 January 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Indisputable... and yet... this is the interwebs... so folks with dispute endlessly.

But again to the OP... The clans have the range advantage. BT made them so, countless BT/MW properties have held them to it, MWO is produced using Table Top values... so yes, Clans have the range advantage as the previous 2 posters reinforced and it's impossible for anyone to argue (intelligently) otherwise.

The "intelligent" part went out the window when I read this tidbit.

Quote

Conversely my stormcrows ERLLs hit instantly at max range.

Not sure what "instantly" means to that posters, but a 1.5s burn time to get full damage value at maximum is not what many others would consider "instant" by any stretch.

So back to non-intelligent discussion then right?

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 05 January 2015 - 07:38 PM, said:

I disagree.

Because I can put a targeting computer on the best clan mech.

But I cant put any quirk I want on the best IS mech. I have to use the mech that comes with those quirks.

In general quirks are better. But there are definite advantages to the targeting computer as well. Especially when clan mechs get quirks of their own which the targeting computer will stack with.

And just for quibbles sake, the I.S. CC starts at 3 tons and ends at 3 tons. Smurfy's Clan TC entries don't currently show the % values in the description.

Does anyone have the numbers or know if the I.S. 3t CC unit compares directly in buff level to the equivalent Clan TC3 version?

[Vlad Striker]

Jman5, on 06 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

They're both 1,000 meters.

You are forgot about missiles quirk.

[RogueLdr]

Just a couple points here,

First off, the clans have to be different in some way, otherwise... what's the damn point; a slightly different shaped mech?
And that difference is our weapons have a longer range and are lighter. (to offset that for balance purposes they run hotter and longer)

If your goal is to make all mechs equal in every way; why not just get rid of all of them and put everyone in the same mech with the same load out because that's pretty much what you're asking for.
Clans are supposed to be slightly better at range, IS is supposed to be slightly better up close. Embrace the difference.


Second, while numbers don't lie, their interpretation can be wildly manipulated.

On paper, yes, the clan weapons have better range. However even if that's true, that doesn't make them better by default, other things need to be considered.

If i gave you a laser with

D = 20
H = 18
R = 2000m
Dur = 4
Cyl = 6

Would it be OP?
Oh but look at the dmg and that range, it HAS to be nerfed!!!!1!!1!

I was going to post a break down of clan weapons vs IS with quirks, but it'd be too long. Do the math, often times the IS end up being better.

Instead i'll just add this, what % of your shots fired during a match are over 700M? Some pot shots, some quick strikes in the beginning maybe? Most people are smart enough to use cover. Extended dmg in the ranges that clans have the adv is limited at best. In the end it always comes down to a brawl.

In a brawl IS have more PP, shorter burns, quicker cycle times and will run cooler.
At best our "softening you up" at range makes us roughly even once the brawl begins because your weapons are better suited for that.

And that, in the end, is the point. Clans have some advantages, IS have others. Play to your advantages.

[Khobai]

In fairness, the ERPPC Thunderbolt does need a heat generation nerf. Id like to see the heat generation buff get changed from 50% to 30%. But id also like to see it get a new quirk that increases ERPPC projectile velocity by 25%. The mech should be less about spamming ERPPCs nonstop and more about making carefully aimed shots with ERPPCs... and a heat generation nerf + projectile speed increase helps accomplish that.

Quote

Does anyone have the numbers or know if the I.S. 3t CC unit compares directly in buff level to the equivalent Clan TC3 version?

Not even close. The command console should really give its buff to all friendly IS mechs in the same lance. Clan equipment should give a bigger buff but only buff the mech its equipped on. IS equipment should give a smaller buff but buff their entire lance.

That also lays the groundwork for how C3 computers could work; basically an IS mech could equip a C3 master computer for 5 tons and 5 crits (includes an integrated TAG laser) and all IS mechs in their lance could get the equivalent of MK II targeting computers for free (but only the weapon bonuses, not the zoom/sensor bonuses, because those buffs would come from the command console). So a mech like an Atlas D-DC with ECM, Command Console, and a C3 Master Computer could really offer its lancemates a lot of buffs.

For reference:

Targeting computer Mk III
Zoom distance increases by 8.5%
Sensor range increases by 4.25%
Time to gather target info decreases by 42.5%
Projectile weapon projectile speed increases by 8.5%
Beam weapon long range increases by 4.25%
Beam weapon max range increases by 4.25%
Critical chance for projectile and beam weapons increases by 9.25%

Command Console (IS heavies/assaults only, must be placed in head)
Zoom distance increases by 12.0%
Sensor range increases by 6.0%
Time to gather target info decreases by 42.5%

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2015 - 12:08 PM.