78 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Rhaythe, on 05 January 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

SL: 135m
C-ERSL: 200m
Diff: 33%

ML: 270m
C-ERML: 405m
Diff: 34%

LL: 450m
ER-LL: 675m
C-ERLL: 740m
Diff: 40% || 9%

PPC: 540m
ER-PPC: 810m
C-ERPPC: 810m
Diff: 33% || 0%

SPL: 110m
C-SPL: 165m
Diff: 34%

MPL: 220m
C-MPL: 330m
Diff: 34%

LPL: 365m
C-LPL: 600
Diff: 40%

Flamer: 90m
C-Flamer: 90m
Diff: 0%

Numbers are numbers. Clans have range. Clans have damage. Clans have heat. A few outsiders, obviously. But those are the numbers. Clans do more damage at greater range by generating more heat. There is no way to dispute that. There are, of course, ways for the IS currently to extend their range via modules (which clans also have) or quirks. But out of the box, and in the vast majority of IS vs Clan battles, Clans WILL win the range war when it comes to energy weapons.

I am not claiming ClanTech is OP (it's not). I'm just posting numbers that prove Clan weapons *do* have larger range. Take that for what you will.

Then maybe, just maybe, you should include the effects of quirks and modules on your numbers. Otherwise, your attempt in an "analysis" is a very good example of what I call "one-dimensional thinking".

daxiazun, on 05 January 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

It seems the clan guys can not do math ...

Clan guys can do math. It's just that IS guys use what I call "one-dimensional thinking" and thus are not able to see Clan guys doing math.

See above.

Edited by Mystere, 05 January 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[Mystere]

Aethon, on 05 January 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Something I do not see being brought up very often: the height of Clan weapon hardpoints, as compared to IS sniping platforms ...

Of course people don't bring it up. That will be very "inconvenient".

[Thorqemada]

There are Clan Mechs with high weapon hardpoints - though they belong not to the Holy Trinity...

[Joe Mallad]

pwnface, on 05 January 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

You aren't considering IS range quirks at all...

i am indeed.

This is an extreme example but here you go. Keep in mind there are no ERLL range quirks for IS mech but there are Energy range quirks of which the TRD-5SS has at energy range +25% so I'll us that and compare the IS ERLL on the TRD-5SS against any Clan mech with its ERLL.

IS ERLL = 675 range + 25% energy range (TRD-5SS)= 843.75 + ERLL max module range of +10% = 928.1

Now to also go to an extreme, let's go with the ploy that all Clan layers are smart and pair their really light ERLLs with an added bonus of the max level 7 targeting Computer which is a "perk" in itself and gives an added energy range of +15%.

Clan ERLL = 740 range (greater than IS range) + 15% Energy range (max targeting computer) = 851 (still greater range over ERLL quirked TDR-5SS) + 10% max ERLL range module = 936.1 (still 8 meters more range over IS ERLL)

So with the ERLL range debate, the IS only has 1 mech (maybe 2) if I missed something that with +25% energy range, could still keep pace with the Clans ERLL of which can be put on how many Clan mechs?

And if you do the math on the ERPPC for both, you come out with very similar numbers. But in the end, Clans still out range IS (as long as they plan smart and pair their targeting computers with the max modules).

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 05 January 2015 - 05:36 PM.

[Iron Felix]

another thing people never mention....for example, an IS A/C 10 is a single slug...a clan A/C 10 is 4 little slugs, which spreads damage to a moving target and makes it harder to hit accurately, especially at range, same with lasers, or missile barrages....laser durations, shot composition, and missile groupings have a huge effect on overall field effectiveness in that hitting a single target area is prefferable to spreading damage over 2 or 3 different zones.
i dont know anyone who stays at exactly their prime weapon range to take advantage of their range advantage...as far as i can tell, that is mostly terrain and cover positions that are built into the map, modified by how much a percentage of your potential damage is registered. honestly, at the exact same range, the difference in actual damage done, modified by the spread, isnt very big....yet this whole thread is arguing about that......and if that isnt enough...people keep saying they want weapons to be LESS lethal...lol....WHAT?......one shot kills, 2 shot kills, death in 2 seconds should be the norm, not running around in circles for 5 minutes trying to do enough damage to slow your target down a little....they are weapons!, they are meant to destroy!...how can i shoot something 10 times and not see any effect?....i dont feel like im in a high powered and highly armored battle machine, i feel like im in a paintball game with the short schoolbus kids...

P.S.,.....I am ALL FOR crosstech weapons capability....let me use whatever is available....every game speaks of salvage, but never shows a benefiet....this makes sense...its available because of salvage,,,,duh!

also...wtf is up with the IS guys complaining about the clan mechs?....there are (#) IS mechs available in their many configurations, and only (#) clan mechs to choose from altogether.....perhaps in THIS games universe, the clan invasion failed miserably and never happened...story over...lets go home....game over....bye....

Edited by Iron Felix, 05 January 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

Then maybe, just maybe, you should include the effects of quirks and modules on your numbers. Otherwise, your attempt in an "analysis" is a very good example of what I call "one-dimensional thinking".



Clan guys can do math. It's just that IS guys use what I call "one-dimensional thinking" and thus are not able to see Clan guys doing math.

See above.

Well the thing (that I REALLY, REALLY hate about the quirk system) is that on IS mechs, and LPL isn't an LPL.

LPL base stats:
-11 damage
-7 heat
-365m range
-0.67s beam duration

LPL on VTR-9B:
-11 damage
-7 heat
-365m range
-0.72s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

LPL on BLR-1G:
-11 damage
-6.3 heat
-401.5m range
-0.607s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

LPL on WVR-6K:
-11 damage
-5.25 heat
-547.5m range
-0.72 beam duration
-2.43s cooldown


While on Clan mechs, a C-LPL is a C-LPL is a C-LPL regardless of the chassis it's on.

C-LPL base stats:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

C-LPL on Warhawk:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

C-LPL on Timberwolf:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown

C-LPL on Stormcrow:
-13 damage
-10 heat
-600m range
-1.12s beam duration
-3.25s cooldown


I mean, Weapon X doing A, B, and C regardless of if it's on Mech X, Y, or Z is kinda sorta what makes Battletech, and to a large extent Mechwarrior, what it is.

[Joe Mallad]

Iron Felix, on 05 January 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

another thing people never mention....for example, an IS A/C 10 is a single slug...a clan A/C 10 is 4 little slugs, which spreads damage to a moving target and makes it harder to hit accurately, especially at range, same with lasers, or missile barrages....laser durations, shot composition, and missile groupings have a huge effect on overall field effectiveness in that hitting a single target area is prefferable to spreading damage over 2 or 3 different zones.
i dont know anyone who stays at exactly their prime weapon range to take advantage of their range advantage...as far as i can tell, that is mostly terrain and cover positions that are built into the map, modified by how much a percentage of your potential damage is registered. honestly, at the exact same range, the difference in actual damage done, modified by the spread, isnt very big....yet this whole thread is arguing about that......and if that isnt enough...people keep saying they want weapons to be LESS lethal...lol....WHAT?......one shot kills, 2 shot kills, death in 2 seconds should be the norm, not running around in circles for 5 minutes trying to do enough damage to slow your target down a little....they are weapons!, they are meant to destroy!...how can i shoot something 10 times and not see any effect?....i dont feel like im in a high powered and highly armored battle machine, i feel like im in a paintball game with the short schoolbus kids...

the clans also have a single slug AC-10 of which has a greater range over the IS AC-10.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Yoseful Mallad, on 05 January 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

IS ERLL = 675 range + 25% energy range (TRD-5SS)= 843.75 + ERLL max module range of +10% = 928.1

Your maths are off, you add all your percentages before multiplying your ranges/cooldowns/heat to them.

So it would be:

(+25% energy range + 10% max range ERLL range mod) x 675m = 911m

I can confirm because my TDR-5SS rolls two ERLLs and 5 MPLs.

[Vassago Rain]

Well, yeah, almost all their guns have 30%+ more range.

[B0oN]

Imma clansman and I dunno and dun giv a farrg ...

Smackdown is smackdown, no matter where ye live ^^

911? fecking meter ? thats further than the ERPPCs on my WHK prime .....

Fecking spheroids ....easy mode cheeze

pffff

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 05 January 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 January 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

Your maths are off, you add all your percentages before multiplying your ranges/cooldowns/heat to them.

So it would be:

(+25% energy range + 10% max range ERLL range mod) x 675m = 911m

I can confirm because my TDR-5SS rolls two ERLLs and 5 MPLs.

ok well even if you do it that way and the TDR-5SS gets a 911 on its ERLL range, al other Clan mechs with ERLLs, max range module and max targeting computer will still end up with a ERLL range of 925 which still proves my point that the Clans still have range over IS.

Rad Hanzo, on 05 January 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

Imma clansman and I dunno and dun giv a farrg ...

Smackdown is smackdown, no matter where ye live ^^

911? fecking meter ? thats further than the ERPPCs on my WHK prime .....

Fecking spheroids ....easy mode cheeze

pffff

so add the max range module and max targeting computer and you get your holy range right back ll

[xX PUG Xx]

OK I'll throw this in there while we're talking about stuff people never mention (huh, what?)

Yes my T-Bolt 9S can trade ER-PPC fire with a T-Wolf at similar range but if he scores a hit, splash damage scrubs armour from adjoining torso/limbs. The IS ER-PPC doesn't have THAT benefit and it is not to be sniffed at, the first time I dropped against a Clan defence my Cicada died from a heatshot and I can guarantee alot of the damage came from C-PPC splash.

Just to be clear, Clans in general are no longer OP as far as I'm concerned. Yes they are tough to fight against and they should be BUT they have nothing available to them that a well pilotted and setup IS' Mech can't counter or equal in some form or fashion, whether it be by technological or mental means (come on, who still goes face to face with a Dire Wolf if you have any other choice? )

[pwnface]

Yoseful Mallad, on 05 January 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

i am indeed.

This is an extreme example but here you go. Keep in mind there are no ERLL range quirks for IS mech but there are Energy range quirks of which the TRD-5SS has at energy range +25% so I'll us that and compare the IS ERLL on the TRD-5SS against any Clan mech with its ERLL.

IS ERLL = 675 range + 25% energy range (TRD-5SS)= 843.75 + ERLL max module range of +10% = 928.1

Now to also go to an extreme, let's go with the ploy that all Clan layers are smart and pair their really light ERLLs with an added bonus of the max level 7 targeting Computer which is a "perk" in itself and gives an added energy range of +15%.

Clan ERLL = 740 range (greater than IS range) + 15% Energy range (max targeting computer) = 851 (still greater range over ERLL quirked TDR-5SS) + 10% max ERLL range module = 936.1 (still 8 meters more range over IS ERLL)

So with the ERLL range debate, the IS only has 1 mech (maybe 2) if I missed something that with +25% energy range, could still keep pace with the Clans ERLL of which can be put on how many Clan mechs?

And if you do the math on the ERPPC for both, you come out with very similar numbers. But in the end, Clans still out range IS (as long as they plan smart and pair their targeting computers with the max modules).

Nice try, but wrong again. TC Mk 7 gives you 7.5% range not 15%

The range bonuses are calculated additively and not multiplicatively.

TDR-5SS : 675m base range x (1 + (0.25 quirk + 0.10 module) ) = 911.25m
C-ERLL : 740m base range x ( 1 + ( 0.10 module + 0.075 TC7) ) = 869.5m

The IS have an advantage in extreme long range combat (over 900m). The Clans have an advantage in a very large mid-range of combat (400-850m). IS mechs may have a slight advantage in close range combat (under 300m)

The C-ERPPC with TC7 and module does have more range than the TDR-9S ERPPC but doesn't enjoy the nice ERPPC heat gen quirks.

Edited by pwnface, 05 January 2015 - 06:08 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

pwnface, on 05 January 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

Nice try, but wrong again. TC Mk 7 gives you 7.5% range not 15%

The range bonuses are calculated additively and not multiplicatively.

TDR-5SS : 675m base range x (1 + (0.25 quirk + 0.10 module) ) = 911.25m
C-ERLL : 740m base range x ( 1 + ( 0.10 module + 0.075 TC7) ) = 869.5m

The IS have an advantage in extreme long range combat (over 900m). The Clans have an advantage in a very large mid-range of combat (400-850m). IS mechs may have a slight advantage in close range combat (under 300m)

The C-ERPPC with TC7 and module does have more range than the TDR-9S ERPPC but doesn't enjoy the nice ERPPC heat gen quirks.

i stand corrected. You are right. I was liking at he wrong stat lol. My bad guys. Ok with that then, there are some IS mechs that can out range Clan mechs with "some weapons". I still don't see it as a major issue for Clan players tho? Some Clan layers are making it sound like because of Quirks, that IS mechs are running al over Clan mechs? Am I missing something? Does it happen that IS mechs do run over Clan mechs? Sure!! It happens and I can contest to this as I have been involved in some good old Clan stomping with my IS mechs. But it happens just as much if not a bit more that the Clans still run over the IS. And it's more the players than it is the mechs or any weapons or quirks. Get good players behind any mech and they are still good and will roll you no matter what.

I apologize for my lack of reading the right stats in the TC info and therefor giving out bad math lol.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 05 January 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[Khobai]

one thing no ones mentioned, the clan targeting computer increases the projectile speed of the clan ERPPC.

nothing IS has will increase the projectile speed of their ERPPCs.

[CHH Badkarma]

Yoseful Mallad, on 05 January 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

the clans also have a single slug AC-10 of which has a greater range over the IS AC-10.

I am sorry to say this but that is false. All clan auto cannons, with the exception of the LBX series are burst fire. The clan ac fires in burst mode, just like the UAC. However you cant double tap them, and they weigh more.

We have no pinpoint damage ac.

[Mystere]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 January 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

Well the thing (that I REALLY, REALLY hate about the quirk system) is that on IS mechs, and LPL isn't an LPL.


...

I mean, Weapon X doing A, B, and C regardless of if it's on Mech X, Y, or Z is kinda sorta what makes Battletech, and to a large extent Mechwarrior, what it is.

That's a very good point. So what do you think of the Clan targeting computer?

[Mystere]

xX PUG Xx, on 05 January 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

Yes my T-Bolt 9S can trade ER-PPC fire with a T-Wolf at similar range but if he scores a hit, splash damage scrubs armour from adjoining torso/limbs. The IS ER-PPC doesn't have THAT benefit and it is not to be sniffed at, the first time I dropped against a Clan defence my Cicada died from a heatshot and I can guarantee alot of the damage came from C-PPC splash.

Are you sure it was really splash and not actually a head shot?

Edited by Mystere, 05 January 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

That's a very good point. So what do you think of the Clan targeting computer?

I'm not really sure. It's kinda hard to figure out how to have that translate over from TT.

If we still had convergence proper, then it'd be pretty obvious. In the current state though? I'm not really sure how I'd do it...

[CHH Badkarma]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

That's a very good point. So what do you think of the Clan targeting computer?

You just cant compare a quirk, that costs no money, has no weight and takes up zero space to an item that has weight, takes up space and cost money Not to mention scales very poorly in regard to its weight and space per tc level.

You simply cant compare them for that reason. Quirts are free in every regard. Zero weight, zero space and no cost. Win win.

That being said..

TCs, yeah, not even close to being worth the penalties. Very poor performance return for the weight and crit requirements

Edited by CHH Badkarma, 05 January 2015 - 07:38 PM.