399 replies to this topic

[Repasy Cooper]

Verenix, on 07 January 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

Want a TL;DR?

IS have T-bolts with 3-4 ERPPC's.

Clans have Gauss/ERPPC Direwhale.

The direwhale is harder to shoot, but you have 50 pinpoint as opposed our 30 (which we can only alpha max 3 times) YOU can keep on alpha'ing A LOT more.

You clans still have a massive advantage over IS. The 9S strategy is easily countered, as MischiefSC said.....it was countered shortly after it was released....You guys are just the low-elo players that have still not figured out how to fight it.

QQ Clans This argument is over.

Ya w/e scrub, is your elo in the double-digits? maybe your IQ is.

And you're ignoring my callout. Make me a Timber Wolf with 6x s-srm6 now or apologize and shut up forever.

[MischiefSC]

Kyynele, on 07 January 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

This must be why the lords are currently using the same 9S defence. Because it's bad and vulnerable to easy strategies that completely break it, not because it's absurdly heat efficient, capable of massive front loaded pinpoint damage both in long range and in point blank, with high hardpoints requiring minimal exposure.

Last time tonight, our 4-man faced a lord 6-man defending Boreal. Each lord, save for one died or ejected twice during that match, yet at no point did we see a lord in any other mech than a Thunderbolt. And we've faced them a few times, either they play the troll deck all the time, or it is their serious deck. Likewise for 228 and a couple of other comp teams. Your facts might be in need of an update.

I'm sure by now all competitive players are very aware of how OP the 9S currently is, and everyone also knows that it will likely get nerfed sometime soon. So, it's best to exploit it to the max while you still can. Our unit isn't a serious CW unit, so we haven't switched sides to abuse it. But we still play the 9S in the public queues. And it is brutal.

I get it, you want to fight the CW even here on the forums, and there's no room for objectivity. I obviously posted this because clams aren't strong enough, despite our unit kicking the same amount of ass when we played Davion a week back. So, carry on.

They didn't believe me at the time. Really sorta funny actually. A very prominent ex-Lords member even told me 'If you're getting killed by Thunderbolts then you are just bad'.

K.

A group of 12 Timber Wolves is very butal. A group of 12 Storm Crows is very brutal. The 9S works in big bundles and it works well for very well organized units doing focused fire. What you don't see is them being used in IS vs IS matches because we already worked through that and moved on to other tactics. They are abusing the **** out of Clans with it right now because for comp teams who have spent years training up focused fire and not so much split lance tactics or complex shell game tactics it's probably a better tactic for them. They have the skillset and focus fire coordination to pull it off well.

Again though, nobody else really uses that in IS vs IS anymore. Not sure any of them have in a while. They might; again, it's a tactic that plays to their strengths (when defending Boreal). Having to switch up your drop deck for two maps from two tactics is more than most people are willing to invest though so it's not that great overall. It shines defending Boreal though against 'typical Clanner tactics'. Absolutely shines. On Sulfur though you have to write off Ogens 1 and 3 immediately and focus on defending Ogen 2 in the straightaway, though some sneaky ******** might still get it from over the back up top. Also if you know where from you can LRM down Ogen2 from a long way off. So now you're trying to defend just the Omega with a pile of hot energy build mechs. A split ACboat/light zerg is going to give you a hard time. So is something like a 12 Atlas rush.

In any case. Again, it's not new. This isn't some super secret surprise. That's part of all the seething contempt in this thread; I doubt you'll find many IS vs IS players who haven't seen, deployed and dealt with this tactic. We adapted and overcame. To see this same thing here and suddenly Clanners are taking their toys and going home is the cause of the issue. Sure, scale back the 9S heat buff and projectile speed but a bit. I don't care. That's like telling me the Blackjacks are getting their AC2 quirks adjusted. Not going to impact my game at all. Not what I use nor how I play nor the people I play with and against. At some point the Clans will figure out what the rest of us did and the comp teams will move up to some more complex and significantly more 'cheap' tactics and we'll be back in this same spot.

The Clans got fed 1 month of pugs and dontcares and people farming 80pts. Now you're getting a taste of what all the big faction big unit IS vs IS stuff is like. You're not going to outfight the high-end comp units - you've got to outwit them. Use, you know. Tactics. That's not just 'Okay, everyone take a Stormcrow or Timber Wolf. We'll go Alpha gate. Oh, wait, couple guys bring ECM something'.

[kf envy]

dezgra, on 06 January 2015 - 09:12 PM, said:

This is a silly thread! If the thunda is over powered, why not counter with the OP timby or crow?

op timby or crow dont make me LOL. if seen 3 timbers take on 1 cheesebolt and in the end all 3 timbers dead an cheesebolt just missing both arms a ST and one leg. but then again PGI has given you tec that fallowing the time line you should not have for 2 years.

Nightshade24, on 07 January 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

"Stormcrow 5 streak 6 OR srm 6 106 kph
Madcat 6 streak 6 OR srm 6 89 kph
Direwhale 6 UAC 5
DireWhale 2 ERPPC 2 Gauss <----Think IS have forgotten this build? And clans complain of 3 ERPPC's.....>.>"

1) streak? ye-nope... Those are not over powered at all.

They take forever to reload, (especially streak 6's) and have a slower movement speed meaning AMS can pick more off them off then an IS Streak. Ontop of that this build is very ammo dependent and is only ever used in CW specificly when they die because 5 or so firestarters are circle jerking the team.

It's kinda mandatory to run a streak build however it's only a short term sollution to the game as when the bigger boys start attacking you, you are pretty defenseless.

You also forget streaks spread a lot and you can't aim where they are. This isn't that much of a problem when firing at lights because if you take there leg out, good job. you took there main defense out.
You took there arms off? good job. they now can't hit as hard back
You took the ct out? yay it's dead.
you took it's st out? yay it's still dead.

Etc... when it's an atlas your firing at. all you do is tickle it.

Also a "Mad Cat" timberwolf can't even mount 6 SRM 6's... it can do 4 max... and guess what? it's only on the timberwolf S torsos. So you lost 2 tons per 2 missile slots. (so 4 SRM 6's = 4 tons gone)
I rarely see a timberwolf mount missiles in general let alone 4 of them.


Direwolf 6 UAC 5 build isn't that good in CW. In pug matches it's fine though on conquest/ assault/ skirmish.
You need to drop a UAC 5 or two for some lasers... ironically a few medium lasers already is hotter then all your ballsitics... so it quickly becomes a hot build quickly as you remove energy for ballistics.

2 ER PPC 2 Gauss is the only competitor to the Thunderbolt 9S. But the problem is the direwolf is more ammo dependent in longer term CW matches.

The thunderbolt 9S can still out damage the direwolf in DPS... 65 ton verse 100 ton = 65 ton has all the advantages besides armour. Seems fair....

Also a direwolf in your line up?

100 tons taken. that leaves 140 left.

Timberwolf? that's a 75 ton mech, that leaves 65 tons left between two mechs....

that can be 1 Kitfox and 1 Adder or 1 Mist lynx and 1 Ice ferret.

Those 4 mechs are not that good in CW. Kitfox is most likely the best and you could go down 5 tons to just have 2 kitfoxes however the problem here is that the only reason it's good in CW is for the ecm and tripple AMS....

AMS can't save anyone against ER PPC's and mechs can still be hit by ER PPC's when they are in ECM cover, also if they hit you you get emp effect on you..

Also the thunderbolt and firestarter can easily out maneuver a direwolf and beat it in a brawl (unless it has A arms... but no one is going to use 1 ballistics and 3 energy hardpoints in the arms for a direwolf without using anything bigger then a machine gun or without using a ppc)

Also there is more "OP" is mechs...

Well by OP i mean suitable to fight clanners...

And post the quirkening... pretty much every IS mech can compete....

Rather that be atlas, stalker, jager, king crab, locust, firestarter, trebuchet, cicada , etc....

The most 'competitive' mechs the clans have. (timberwolf and stormcrow running all energy) still can't compete with a good half of IS mechs...

The thing is quite a few people want to have the 'field mod' ability on clan mechs... pretty much removing it's omnitech properties so they can mount what ever engine they want, endo steel, ferro, etc...
Plenty of clanners also want to use IS weapons on their mechs as well. I wounder why



If I can do that can you buy me the hellbringer for me? (I already got the ice ferret pack)



Stormcrow isn't that fast for a medium. Most IS mediums can go 100 kph to 150 kph

For the timberwolf, sure it isn't that slow but most people agree it's huge engines it's downfall, if it had a clan XL 300 or 320 you will see a new whole side to the timberwolf that you never saw before...

Hellbringer isn't that fast for its' tonnage either.

You call the kitfox, mist lynx, adder, nova, summoner, warhawk, or direwolf fast?



yes... 65 ton IS = 100 ton Clan

you can put 3 thunderbolts in 1 line up but you can't fit 2 direwolfs in 1 line up. (1 direwolf line up forces the use of 2 lights and a heavy, or another combination like that)

to bad clans don't have any 20 ton light mechs. ware the IS has a 20 ton locust so with that said IS can drop 2 assaults with 2 lights ware clans thats there an but of a problem because the fire moth is not in game.

Edited by kf envy, 07 January 2015 - 07:59 PM.

[Gorgo7]

Wow!
Just got out of my second match Vs. the Clan ever and had my ass handed to me. Was unprepared to assault on the cold world thats' for sure...
This post is silly to read after facing the firepower out there.
Energy! Missiles! Ballistic! Half of them had ECM! The THUD's may have great ERPPC's but the clan has EVERYTHING else.
Make no mistake the THUDS and ALL IS machines need more buffs.

Happy hunting!

[Harathan]

1 T-Bolt took out 3 T-Wolves? Really?

Wow. They must have been some REALLY bad pilots.

Oh wait, Clans don't have bad pilots, right. Must be OP mech.

To quote the most obnoxious cretins in the game: GGclose

Edited by Harathan, 07 January 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Harathan, on 07 January 2015 - 07:49 PM, said:

1 T-Bolt took out 3 T-Wolves? Really?

Wow. They must have been some REALLY bad pilots.

Oh wait, Clans don't have bad pilots, right. Must be OP mech.

To quote the most obnoxious cretins in the game: GGclose

yes... and when you compaire the fact a Thunderbolt is better in every way to an awesome.

It must be "Awesome pilots are bad pilots. Thunderbolt is not op".

[Gorgo7]

AWESOME IS A BETTER MECH.
ISN'T IN THE SWEET 65 TON SPOT, BUT IS A BETTER MECH.

[kf envy]

Harathan, on 07 January 2015 - 07:49 PM, said:

1 T-Bolt took out 3 T-Wolves? Really?

Wow. They must have been some REALLY bad pilots.

Oh wait, Clans don't have bad pilots, right. Must be OP mech.

To quote the most obnoxious cretins in the game: GGclose

well when the cheesebolt get an head shot the 1st timber an blows the mouse ears off the other. you know the timber take an 50% loss in fire power an any extra DSH that were there to in the ST.

[Mr Beefy]

Tolkien, on 07 January 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

*Ding* Give this man the gold star.

Last night my unit did some CW drops and ~6 of the guys would take thunderbolts in their first wave so they could lay down some respectable PPC bukake.

The only match we lost was on boreal vault, against a clan team. I know you're already asking 'but but how could this be!? Half our team was abusing the Thud 9s stronk meta, we couldn't lose!!11!'

Not only did we lose to them, but we got absolutely rolled, because the enemy team did a masterful job of countering the PPC spam:

1) They formed a train up the alpha side so we could only hit the lead mech at any given time while they proceeded to knock out the alpha generator in a single pass of ~40 seconds. They didn't even lose a single mech doing this.

2) They didn't waste time screwing around out in the open taking PPC spam to the face. They killed the generators then they rushed up the sides where we were forced to close to range to engage them.

3) Their mechs were packing a good number of clan ER mediums, SRMs, etc. They *DOMINATED* the 'unbeatable' thunderbolts at any range under 500 metres.

4) At the end of the match their 12 man had farmed our 12 man 48 to 25, despite our 12 man abusing this supposedly unstoppable meta.

In conclusion: The problem the clanners have is that they no longer absolutely own the long range game and can't stand still out in the open and expect to win any and all weapons fire exchanges with the inner sphere. It worked that way in tabletop, it worked that way here for the last 8+ months, but now you guys have to learn the same painful lessons us mediocre inner sphere pilots had to learn: Don't stand out in the open at 700-900 metres!

Hells bells, the clans have so many weapons that work at this range it isn't even a hard and fast rule! It really is just 'don't stand around in the open trading fire with inner sphere OR clan mechs unless you have numerical superiority.

TL:DR; I'm not trying to be mean, but if you're losing to TDR9s erppc spam, it's because you're making the mistake of believing your clan mech is so superior it can stand still out in the open at range against a numerically superior enemy and not get smacked upside the head. The TDR9s is very specialized in the role of 'punishing stupidity' - people who move slowly out in the open at long range. If you don't stand out in the open at long range, it is not a very good mech. The OP capabilities of clan equipment is finally starting to get dialed back after 8+ months of ruling the battlefield, and now you guys are going to have to unlearn a bad habit.

I think you and I was in the same game, because this is what we did in one of them and it worked so well, and we won. In fact I have had about 7 CW drops tonight, and have lost only 3 of them and it was because we was out played. Two of the the 3 loses was close. The one game I dropped was with 7 or 8 man's and I think it was the SA team of Jags I dropped with. We closed the the range on them and dropped them like it was nothing. We didn't storm the gens right out the gate. We went to the left just past the turret and stayed in the dips in the hills there. We brawled them till we had the advantage in numbers and it worked. We then proceeded to move to the gens, took them out, and took out omega.

I agree with much of what Vass's has said here, but one thing I don't agree with is that I brawl in IS or in my Clan mechs. I make it a point in every match to take out 2 TBolts min, and focus fire on them as much as I can. I also try to get teammates to focus on them also. This game really all is how you get into your opponents heads, and informing the IS team that all their Thunderbolts will die at the start of the match works wonders. Either they will be like, " What did I do?" and be more timid with their shots, or they will come at you even harder then norm. Either way its a win win because closing range with them and staying in cover and speed is the real way to counter all these Erppc bolts.

It comes down to skill, team play, and some luck to beat a Bolt heavy team. Using your head, tactics, and teamwork is surprisingly effective guys. Who would of thought that some quirks and a few Erppc's would scare so many clan players into laying down and kicking their feet in the air?

Edited by Mr Beefy, 08 January 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

Its funny.... Until the comp teams helped to bring balance to the IS front we never heard much about the 9s...  

I know that MS wasnt complaining when we were out in Clan Ghost Bear space.

Edited by Saxie, 07 January 2015 - 09:22 PM.

[MischiefSC]

bobF, on 07 January 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

[Redacted]

You know that names on planets is more about how many people are in your unit than anything else. I hopefully don't need to explain that to you. Could win every single drop but if only 6 people are generally online, no planets.

Then again you're generally about the ad hominem and trying to imply that some totally unrelated personal insult is in some way associated with the validity of someones points - since you generally don't have valid points to bring, just bad opinions or hyperbole put forward as a legit argument.

I'm not sure if you've actually had a good point to put forward that I've seen. Why don't you break your streak and actually put forward a legit useful point of argument. Seriously, start a trend for yourself. A useful point relating to the subject at hand - not some flat out silly misrepresentation (like saying because someone is in a small unit and doesn't have their name on a planet they don't understand how the Tbolt 9S works. You know, unrelated silly stuff like that) but an actual point.

What's your tactic for dealing with a comp group with, well, any sort of passable decent set of builds, tbolt 9S or otherwise? Then again, have you actually played against a comp group?

Edited by John Wolf, 11 January 2015 - 07:31 AM.
moderated Quote

[TiguriusX]

Very ragey. Sounds like the stocking stuffers who had no clue what was going on but they could point to their "match score" as validation for doing nothing towards a CW win

[Nightshade24]

kf envy, on 07 January 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

op timby or crow dont make me LOL. if seen 3 timbers take on 1 cheesebolt and in the end all 3 timbers dead an cheesebolt just missing both arms a ST and one leg. but then again PGI has given you tec that fallowing the time line you should not have for 2 years.




to bad clans don't have any 20 ton light mechs. ware the IS has a 20 ton locust so with that said IS can drop 2 assaults with 2 lights ware clans thats there an but of a problem because the fire moth is not in game.

The next light mech will be the Firemoth, 20 ton like mech.

However we need MASC and the speed cap to rise for that...

[Martis Gradivus]

Verenix, on 07 January 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Let's get this out of the way.....These laser arguments from BOTH sides are really hallow.

Trying to compare lasers against ERPPC's (in the way of replacing the ppc with lasers) is like comparing Apples to Planes. "I really like apples, but i'm terrified of flying"

ERPPC is a one shot hit. Lasers are over a duration. You CANT substitute ERPPC's with lasers! So yes, the clans in this respect are right, none of their lasers compare to the ERPPC....BECAUSE THEY ARE TWO MECHANICALLY DIFFERENT WEAPONS!

Now you're going to complain on how op they are? Well i'm not going to say how some have figured it out....but clans have WAY more OP than IS will ever get....EVEN with all these quirks.

Let's look at easy to read OP Build counts.

IS have 2 strong op mechs from the quirks: T-bolt 7 med pulse & T-bolt ERPPC.

Count for IS op = 2

Clans have the following:

Stormcrow 5 streak 6 OR srm 6 106 kph
Madcat 6 streak 6 OR srm 6 89 kph
Direwhale 6 UAC 5
DireWhale 2 ERPPC 2 Gauss <----Think IS have forgotten this build? And clans complain of 3 ERPPC's.....>.>

Clan OP count = 4

This is just off the top of my head. I only own 1 type of clan mech so I don't know the others just like that, but I'm SURE some of you know others.

Just from these numbers Clan already double the IS op count.

(To those thinking 6 UAC 5 direwhales suck in CW you haven't been doing it right)

So please clans get out of this thread. Take this argument alongside mischiefSC's post and you guys should just take your weak arguments and go home packing.

Maybe now you're actually forced to think up of a strategy to beat our ONE SINGLE OP MECH!

Wow.....you're pretty clueless here.

You count 4 clan configs OP yet only 1 is decent, and that's as a light hunter. Let me illuminate.

The MOST hard points on a TBR for missiles is, wait for it, 4. 2 x RT and 2 x LT. That's 4 SRMs or 4 Streaks or 4 LRMs. Hardly over powered.

The 6 U/AC5 Direwhale? Allow me to introduce the 6 U/AC5 King Crab......with NO DOT I might add.......

The 2 x Gauss 2 x ERPPC Direwhale? Allow to to re-introduce the King Crab......only it does it BETTER since those 2 Energy Hardpoints, they are HIGH UP on the mech......very high. Point King Crab again.

The Stormcrow with 5 SRM-6 or SSRM-6? Decent build.....5 x SSRM 6 = 5 alphas before shutting down (without any modules and it has a long cool down) and 6 and a half cycles before over heat while chain firing. Hardly OP. Dangerous, but that's it. With 5 SRM6, due to 2 second faster cooldown, again no modules, 3 full alphas (92% heat), overheat on the 4th and CT damage. With chainfire, 4 full cycles, overheat on the 5th. Again..........hardly OP, only dangerous.

So tell me again how those 4 mechs are OP?

[Whiteagle]

MischiefSC, on 07 January 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

That's like telling me the Blackjacks are getting their AC2 quirks adjusted.

Wait, WHAT?!?!

[Verenix]

I've got to admit....If people actually read what MischiefSC writes....these arguments would be over.

Thank you bobF for perfectly outlining the immaturity of the clanners complaining in this thread.

As MischiefSC stated....Your argument is so flawed i'm pretty sure you even caught it after you posted your point (hopefully).

T-bolt ERPPC's are op...but easily countered. Clans are just mad that they can't sit in the open anymore half-asleep while their lrms do the work for them....

[Harathan]

bobF, on 07 January 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

You talk waaaaaay too much smack for somebody with ZERO PLANETS.

Let me say again. The single indicator of actual, contributed victory in CW, winning planets, and having your unit name on them, YOU HAVE A GRAND TOTAL AMOUNT OF:


wait for it


ZERO.


Before you predictably reply how much more awesome you and your zerg faction is, understand that my rebuttal will be that you have zero planets, and you should stfu, scrub.

BTW, you have zero planets. Please get good.

Everyone may now return to blaming specific mechs for a population balance and poor map design issue.

I had to read this several times, over and over, because I genuinely couldn't believe that you were suggesting what you seem to be suggesting.

Are you seriously trying to say that the validity of the arguments someone is making regarding the quirks on a specific chassis is directly related to how many planets that persons unit has claimed in CW?

So if a person has never dropped in CW, but the rest of their unit has and they've claimed planets, then that person has a better idea of how a chassis is performing in CW than someone who drops regularly in CW but whose unit is too small get a planet tag?

A lone wolf who has put hours and hours into CW, dropping on every border, has a less valid opinion than someone who has never played CW, but their unit has a bunch of planets tagged?

...

You were joking right? Please, tell everyone here you were joking. The possibility that you were actually serious is frankly mind boggling.

Edited by Harathan, 07 January 2015 - 10:41 PM.

[Roadbeer]

bobF, on 07 January 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

You talk waaaaaay too much smack for somebody with ZERO PLANETS.

<continues on a while with nonsensical tripe>

Shhhh, honey no, just no.

You're not very good at this (posting), you should do it less.


also, your Epeen is showing, you might see to that.


EDIT:
Lucky for Bob, and the Clans, that even with Faction grouping coming in 2 weeks, we'll still only be able to defend. But I see Clan progress coming to a screeching halt when they have to deal with more than just Thunderblob tactics that the Southern Houses have gotten used to using. There isn't a forum large enough for all the <insert nerf thing> threads that will be created.

I shall be making my own brand of salt, harvested from test tube baby tears.

Edited by Roadbeer, 07 January 2015 - 10:42 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Yep, Clans have to deal with almost every MWO comp team plus quite a few pugs on the side of FRR. It is more of a badge of honor that you need such force to stop us. OP Thunderbolts are OP, but I hope Russ will get some idea about this issue soon and eventually this will be fixed. All in all, given what you need to stop us, I feel great about my faction. And that comes from faction member that has only three good Mechs, compared to how many solid Mechs IS has at its disposal... I really think we are doing well.

But keep whining, IS :-) Each and every drop of your tears fills the rivers and ocean on our beautiful planets.

[MischiefSC]

Roadbeer, on 07 January 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Shhhh, honey no, just no.

You're not very good at this (posting), you should do it less.


also, your Epeen is showing, you might see to that.


EDIT:
Lucky for Bob, and the Clans, that even with Faction grouping coming in 2 weeks, we'll still only be able to defend. But I see Clan progress coming to a screeching halt when they have to deal with more than just Thunderblob tactics that the Southern Houses have gotten used to using. There isn't a forum large enough for all the <insert nerf thing> threads that will be created.

I shall be making my own brand of salt, harvested from test tube baby tears.

Meta changes every two days with you guys. Every two ******* days. If one stale meta is rolling the entire Clan front (truth is it's a set of solid comp teams but they blame one mech) it's going to turn into a river of tears. A flowing river of tears.