653 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 January 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

I do see your inherent point, that using locked build choices to balance clan tech causes almost unavoidable internal balance issues within clan simply based on what the orginal TRO designers did with the mech. However, since PGI want to keep the slot and tonnage costs of everything from TT, if they made clan mechs fully customisable they would have to nerf the SH!T out of the individual weapon systems to account for their lower tonnage (and to balance out the Clan XL, the 7 slot ES, the 2 slot DHS, etc), which would end up with the clans having no trace of their TT flavour and would simply be like IS mechs except with more, but FAR crappier, guns. I dont want to see that.

Clan ACs and LRMs already suck, a heresy according to TT and to what you say, yet only a few complain about it. Clan tech is not supposed to be WORSE, but can be made EVEN in performance but DIFFERENT in stats, have one parameter BETTER at the cost of another being made worse.

But whatever, we're way off topic now. Bishop's humble request unintenionally turned out into mine game overhaul demand

Edited by kapusta11, 09 January 2015 - 07:01 AM.

[LordBraxton]

I dont like the clans but...

The summoner really might need endo.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 January 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Galahad? One of the Mad Dog variants carried 2..... with 3 tons from endo that will be a feasible build in MWO.

One can't base it purely on what's here, now. One has to see what is also coming. Clan Weapons are in many ways weaker that IS, true. But IMO it weakens ones stance and argument if we gloss over inconvenient truths.

Not every IS mech carries 2 GRs well, either. But it can be done, comfortably by several mechs on both sides, with more coming. People argue the Clan ER PPC is somehow not superior because they don't have a lower heat std PPC option. That overlooks the fact that the C-ER PPC is still superior to the ER PPC.

Regardless, this whole thing seems like it's veering way off topic, folks.

Its not hard for the C-ERPPC to be superior to the ERPPC, because unless you are driving an AWS-9M or a TDR-9S the ERPPC is the worst weapon in the game bar flamers. The C-ERPPC is simply less bad.

Thats the other thing, quirks - change the whole scene. No one fires IS weapons at base stats anymore.

On that topic id like to see every clan chassis apart from the Direwolf receive pretty large quirks that only relate to C-UACs, because i want to use ACs on clan mechs and i cant because they are terrible, but they cant buff the weapons because the Direwolf will be too powerful.

Sorry for off-topic, ill stop now.

[Lily from animove]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Clan ACs and LRMs already suck already, a heresy according to TT and to what you say, yet only a few complain about it. Clan tech is not supposed to be WORSE, but can be made EVEN in performance but DIFFERENT in stats, have one parameter BETTER at the cost of another being made worse.

and thats why lasers suck in comparison to IS, they have more range, and dmg, but they are less efficient in heat and have longer beam duration. they can not efficiently cause damage nor where needed unless you shoot at a sitting duck. and by this they are quite bad as what weapons require to be able in a shooter game. Yet they are some of the best weapons we have since clan UAC's are horrible compared to IS ones. And lrm's are generally pointless in the game at a specific skillevel.

So only the gauss and the PPC's are left.

PPC's are generally heat inefficient weapons, and a single gauss makes not much sense.

So weapon wise the IS is not worse, they just can't use their stuff right. And even after wuriks many struggle to use them right.

[Calamus]

I support this OP.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

hence the idea of buffing the second class citizens.

The Idea is to flatten the curve, which means bringing up the lesser, and reducing the superior.

Fact is, we can't bring all mechs up to the level ofthe TW. If we did, the IS would be a cinder in seconds. (I've run the 12 TW CW drops..... IS lost every time. Badly. Even good units. And we a lot of us were still in our first mech when Omega went down).

Summoner, Nova, Clan Lights, all need to be brought up. But the TW and SC need to come down a notch. Unlocking endo is a good first step to bring the weak ones up some. Though I think the Lights will need serious quirking, since most have endo, and it's speed, size, etc that are their issues.

Ok, let us be honest here...

The TW is a good mech. Not disputing that...

However...it is NOT some tier 0 mech. Want reasons?

1.) TW is a terrible SRM brawler since locked JJs in S torsos, you cannot carry enough to matter without being locked into 4 JJs. I suppose you could bring 1 S torso and carry 3 launchers...but have you seen how terribad that looks, not to mention making 1 ST the size of Gibraltar for hitbox purposes? Then you would have to bring ERLLs or something for range since you are carrying SRMs, and your heat efficiency tanks.

2.) TW has VERY average hit boxes. The STs are massive, and the CT is nearly that of a catapult. I do not care what anyone says, if you sneeze wrong in a TW you lose a ST.

3.) For a "Jack of all trades" it does LRMs and Ballistics poorly. You cannot boat LRMs (honestly not upset about that, but some likely are, or run inefficient builds...). The only ballistics you can carry 2 or more are UAC/LBX2 and UAC5s. The 2s do not really count because even when you can boat them, they are a tier 9 weapon on a 5 tier scale, and the 5s eat up a lot of tonnage for mostly lackluster performance. Sure it can hold 1 Gauss, 1 erppc, and ermls...IS mechs can bring 1 gauss and similar loadout on a Shawk though...so what does that say?

4.) Heat efficiency on clans is proper f*cked. Seriously...even the TW and SCR feel it. We get out "wubbed" by the 5SS, we get outdone with ERPPCs on the 9S, for a group of mechs that PGI must have clearly intended to have superior options with energy weapons the superiority is gone. If you are not clearly better where you are strong, what are you?

5.) IS has WAY more PP FLD. Every IS AC is clearly superior to clans, and our supposed to be superior CERPPCs are terribad. This compounds other problems because the longer face time that clans require to do damage is now not possible. This was the case before, but post quirks it has become painfully obvious that equal skill in some IS mechs is an advantage over any clan mech. If clans are so superior, why can a 9S T-bolt out trade any clan mech, even with pilots of lesser skill?

Sorry, but until some of the IS mechs are brought into line with their current OP issues, I cannot support in any way, shape, or form, any nerf, to any clan mech. Some clan weapons need buffs, so we actually have options not named laser vomit or gauss vomit. Some chassis are good where they are...

Let me ask all of you some legitimate questions...

Why do any of you think the TW is still top tier? Because you do a lot of damage in it, or because the heavy options in the IS are still mostly bad (except for the T-bolts)?

If the Warhawk prime and Hellbie prime got 9S buffs would it be OP? Why/Why not?

Why not buff the IS heavies to get *closer* to the TW (and bring the outlier that now exists down a couple of notches)? In my mind, Clans should have superior heavies because aside from the SCR, the only other 2 mechs worth bothering with are heavies.

TL;DR: Until you fix all clans and finish buffing IS mechs, leave the TW/SCR they are holding their own, but the margin by which they do so is entirely questionable.

EDIT: Take your 12 TW drops to Boreal against MS with a bunch of ERPPC 9S T-bolts...see how well that goes for you...

Edited by Gyrok, 09 January 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

The question I have, are the mechs we are piloting being made from scratch in some factory, or are we dealing with an existing mech getting tweaked after the fact? Because I understand that it was more common to see a new mech get Endo than an old mech to get that particular refit. With Ferro being the more common refit to older mechs.

Endo is supposed to be rare after all, right? So, if mechs did not come Stock with Endo out of the factory, I'd be okay if mechs wouldn't be able to mount it.

And I have plenty of my mechs modded with Endo, so this would certainly affect me.

[Karl Streiger]

Praetor Knight, on 09 January 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

The question I have, are the mechs we are piloting being made from scratch in some factory, or are we dealing with an existing mech getting tweaked after the fact? Because I understand that it was more common to see a new mech get Endo than an old mech to get that particular refit. With Ferro being the more common refit to older mechs.

Endo is supposed to be rare after all, right? So, if mechs did not come Stock with Endo out of the factory, I'd be okay if mechs wouldn't be able to mount it.

And I have plenty of my mechs modded with Endo, so this would certainly affect me.

To get a Endo, CASE, FF a different reactor rating, switchin heatsinks from single to double- are all factory reftis.
in other words that are complete brand new mechs - nothing you can make in the field.

so the average AS7-D DC you see in the field is more a kind of AS9-X-DC

considering that - only few IS mechs should have the ability to have neither ES or FF.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 09 January 2015 - 07:14 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

Praetor Knight, on 09 January 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

The question I have, are the mechs we are piloting being made from scratch in some factory, or are we dealing with an existing mech getting tweaked after the fact? Because I understand that it was more common to see a new mech get Endo than an old mech to get that particular refit. With Ferro being the more common refit to older mechs.

Endo is supposed to be rare after all, right? So, if mechs did not come Stock with Endo out of the factory, I'd be okay if mechs wouldn't be able to mount it.

And I have plenty of my mechs modded with Endo, so this would certainly affect me.

What do you ask for- remove of every Mech beside Clan nor IS to equip endo/es if they do no not have it on board coming out of factory? - This is the other way of the supposed you grab it. I could smell tears when most mechs can't use endo and many can't use ff because it is locked by stock mech since they do not have it. - In the end not only clan mechs would spread between tier of usability - is mechs would do so too. Hell this would need a new round of quirks for is if many of those chassis do not longer could equip es/ff. And to be honest, nobody would strip es/ff of the stock mech, since it is a good upgrade. This would set many Mechs back and creat a new list of good and bad mechs.

[Blood Rose]

Personally I am against this - yes, I am a lore lover - but I can see why it is needed. Short of some incredible buffs the lower tier Clan Mechs will never be able to function well.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Karl Streiger, on 09 January 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

To get a Endo, CASE, FF a different reactor rating, switchin heatsinks from single to double- are all factory reftis.
in other words that are complete brand new mechs - nothing you can make in the field.

so the average AS7-D DC you see in the field is more a kind of AS9-X-DC

considering that - only few IS mechs should have the ability to have neither ES or FF.

Cool, I remember reading about all of the time required to do the refits also. Something that wouldn't translate to MWO with its current format.


And thinking about it, it would be cool to have the displayed designation change dynamically, as we mod our mechs, and not just what players can privately name.

Kuritaclan, on 09 January 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

What do you ask for- remove of every Mech beside Clan nor IS to equip endo/es if they do no not have it on board coming out of factory? - This is the other way of the supposed you grab it. I could smell tears when most mechs can't use endo and many can't use ff because it is locked by stock mech since they do not have it. - In the end not only clan mechs would spread between tier of usability - is mechs would do so too. Hell this would need a new round of quirks for is if many of those chassis do not longer could equip es/ff. And to be honest, nobody would strip es/ff of the stock mech, since it is a good upgrade. This would set many Mechs back and creat a new list of good and bad mechs.

It would affect IS mechs, I don't see how Clan mechs would be affected since their upgrades are preset and locked in right now.

[Karl Streiger]

Praetor Knight, on 09 January 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Cool, I remember reading about all of the time required to do the refits also. Something that wouldn't translate to MWO with its current format.

as long as you are not Kai Allard Liao and you are lying outstretched before the almighty Stackpole - all the refits we can do will never happen.
Even Victor Steiner - dropped in a Stock Victor 9B - when he faced the Clans the first time.

[Kuritaclan]

Praetor Knight, on 09 January 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

It would affect IS mechs, I don't see how Clan mechs would be affected since their upgrades are preset and locked in right now.

Yes and why the IS Mechs should get punished that way to devide them into "usfull" ones with es/ff on board and others just beeing terribad since they do not be allowed to equip it? I mean this would have a really hard impact on balance of is mechs within another - and cause more problems since a whole new quirk wave would be needed to overcome those flaws of bad mechs. If you woulnd't do so with quirking them, IS would also only have a handfull of mechs what are their T1 and you only would see those on the drop deck. This propossal is counterlogic, since you make the developers more problems than solving balance issus of the mechs on is side or clan side to each other not looking for the balance between is and clans on the next page.

And on a footnote. Doing so for example all IS Lightmechs don't have es or ff so you would punish them in speed for around 10 to 15kp/h, mechs running around customized right now. And only the Hero Mechs have like ES so it would be pretty much Pay2Win. - Humm not the best Idea for a F2P game, but a good Idea to kill it within some months. Since those months quirks get introduced to overcome this heavy drawback will make many people breaking with the game.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 January 2015 - 08:22 AM.

[Vanguard836]

Blood Rose, on 09 January 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

Personally I am against this - yes, I am a lore lover - but I can see why it is needed. Short of some incredible buffs the lower tier Clan Mechs will never be able to function well.

You are against it yet understand that some of the chassis need some loving, can you elaborate more as to why you oppose it and what other alternatives you can suggest ?

[Lucian Nostra]

Vanguard836, on 09 January 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

You are against it yet understand that some of the chassis need some loving, can you elaborate more as to why you oppose it and what other alternatives you can suggest ?

Im thinking he meant to say for this or not against this.

[Tombstoner]

Vanguard836, on 09 January 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

You are against it yet understand that some of the chassis need some loving, can you elaborate more as to why you oppose it and what other alternatives you can suggest ?

I agree with Blood Rose. But this is a legacy hold over from TT. Where mechs where deliberately designed to not be optimum but as flavor text. That's whats so cool about the first BT supplemental manual 3025. The stories in that book alone sucked me and i expect many others into the world of BT and the IS wars.

Years later we have MWO. A game that is fundamental missing systems that would take into account reasons for why you dont want to take ENDO and FERO on everything.

Personally i think the function of endo and fero should be radically changed from TT... for example why would you ever not take endo if given the option.... only if you need the space for more weapons( daishi). In MWO endo should come with a speed penalty...... why, effectively your internal structure is much larger then normal and should restrict articulation. IE movement. The same for fero armor. but with more armor to justify the speed penalty. speed is life.... or revers that and give non endo/fero designs a speed buff.....

TL:DR - Endo and fero gives you more tonnage for more important things then internal structure and armor.... But needs a MWO centric solution such as trading speed not space for tonnage. Otherwise you would never not take endo and puts you at a disadvantage vs other mechs. The point of this topic. 50% of IS tonnage is simply too good to pass up when space in not an issue. Speed vs. firepower different story....

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Kuritaclan, on 09 January 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Yes and why the IS Mechs should get punished that way to devide them into "usfull" ones with es/ff on board and others just beeing terribad since they do not be allowed to equip it? I mean this would have a really hard impact on balance of is mechs within another - and cause more problems since a whole new quirk wave would be needed to overcome those flaws of bad mechs. If you woulnd't do so with quirking them, IS would also only have a handfull of mechs what are their T1 and you only would see those on the drop deck. This propossal is counterlogic, since you make the developers more problems than solving balance issus of the mechs on is side or clan side to each other not looking for the balance between is and clans on the next page.

And on a footnote. Doing so for example all IS Lightmechs don't have es or ff so you would punish them in speed for around 10 to 15kp/h, mechs running around customized right now. And only the Hero Mechs have like ES so it would be pretty much Pay2Win. - Humm not the best Idea for a F2P game, but a good Idea to kill it within some months. Since those months quirks get introduced to overcome this heavy drawback will make many people breaking with the game.

I actually forgot that so many Hero mechs have Endo slapped on them!

I wonder if this idea would be seriously considered by the devs, if they would simply be able to swap to Ferro on those mechs and tweak the builds?

---

Well, if you are talking about the need to min/max a chassis, then I can see where limiting these upgrades can be a cause for concern.

But Endo doesn't save that much tonnage either. For 20 and 25 Ton mechs Endo saves one ton, and saves 1.5 tons for 30 and 35 ton mechs. Up to the 100 tonners that save 5 tons with Endo. It's better than Ferro though in saving weight.

And a lot of the balancing concerns stem from base systems such as how heat works (including rather cool firing ER LL, LLs and LPLs for their boosted damage potential for example), how we can access to tons of engine options, how we can aim grouped weapons against different mech sections and so on for example. But some of these are fine while others like heat need a tweak and others need a complete overhaul.

Endo simply allows the illusion of squeaking out every ounce of performance out of our mechs. I know I often goof around in the mech lab trying to fill every crit slot!

And I currently have 10 IS Lights so not having access to Endo, I'd simply switch over to Ferro and tweak my builds.

Nonetheless, if we do get logical limits to Endo, it can be a way to help mechs that are considered oversized for their weight. Where say a Centurion would be able to use Endo while a Hunchback would not on a case by case basis. But with that thought in mind I'm reminded of Novas...

[InspectorG]

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

.



you can't "fix" thsose hitboxes, The design of the Nova is the design of the Nova. Only "fix" would be what the dragon got: internal structure buffs. Or significant acceleration buffs so that you can appear and disappear faster maybe a good mix of both.

I would like to see:

+10% acceleration
+10% break efficiency
+10% Torso Turn Rate

then it would start feeling like a medium and less like a heavy

I know the hitboxes cant be fixed and it is highly unlikely PGI will spend the resources to remodel it.

PGI should have the experience to know that BT doesnt always translate well to MWO.
BT mechs could look however, shape didnt determine anything other that aesthetics. Hits were results of dice rolls.

MWO, size/shape is pretty important.

Maybe those buffs will be enough???
Does PGI now have a Size : HP : enemy Alpha ratio?

Main gripe i have is on uneven terrain, you end up shooting the ground more than you should.

[Lightfoot]

Lily from animove, on 08 January 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

not good, too easy to break line of sight with radaderp and prevent locking, also they sread a load more, works only well when the opponent twists and shows his side, but if hw would face your frontally, those s-srms spread and you need ages to destroy a light mech. srrm's if you cna aim well are a lot better. but still adder is capable of killing lights extremely well, unless you coem with crappy cerml who burn ages for laods of heat and have no hitreg

SSRMs don't actually do what the animation is showing, except as possible. SSRMs are pre-loaded with a script that gives them a 14-16% chance to hit any section from any angle. So you could be head-on and have not one SSRM hit the CT. SSRMs are another weapon like the Gauss Rifle that PGI has removed from normal gameplay and average pilots. Normally SSRMs are excellent short range weapons vs any Class of mech, not just lights.

Also I did respond Bishop. I said that players do pay for the Endo-Steel internals on Clan mechs. It's in the upfront CBill charges for the mech. And I wish it came on my Thor! or that I could add it in Mechlab, but this all seems to be wishing on a star to me.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

I own all the Mediums. Only ones I don't wreck face in are cicadas.....but I see enough other people do just fine. But put me in a Centy, Hunch or SHD? I am going to kill a lot of people.

Really, you could call the Cicada an honorary light.
Play it like one with a xl300 engine and good stuff happens. You have to play 'shy' though.
You can be aggro, but those hardpoints really scream 'peek-a-boo'.

I do better in Pugs than team drops due to campers.
Cicadas shoulda been called Horseflies. You can chew campers up real raw.

If PGI releases smaller-tonnage CW drop decks, Cicada C might be the next ERPPC spammer???