653 replies to this topic

[Xeren KelDar]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 January 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

well, looks like I inspired some other posts. curious to see where the discussions lead.

I'm kind of curious what kind of effect just unlocking endo/FF would have on the clans. The summoner with maxed armor has 20.69 tons of pod space currently. Give it Endo as well and SSW says it gets 24, so essentially 3.5 tons.

The Stormcrow and Timber all ready have both, so they won't be getting any extra weight savings, and the Dire usually will need crits more than tonnage since it has 50.5 tons of pod space right? A lot of mechs may become better once you give them a little more tonnage to play with. It's not a huge buff to any of them though and stripping FF from the Crow or Timber shouldn't add that much benefit either.

Maybe even removing non engine heatsinks could help some. The Warhawk would keep its 13 heat sinks, but lose the 7 hardlocked ones in its torsos and legs. Might open up more builds for it, and again the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf get nothing from that change (though the Dire Wolf would get 3 tons/6 crits).

With the omni restrictions adjusted for MWO (hardpoints on pods and changing armor allocation) I think we can deviate some from the original restrictions considering how open IS customization is. Keep the hardlocked engines and any engine mounted heat sinks, but maybe try relaxing some of the other restrictions and see what happens. The lower performing omnimechs need some help and I'm saying this as an IS pilot.

[Mycrus]

Keep the clamz the way they are... all they need is a nob of butter and a drizzle of white wine...

[Bishop Steiner]

Xeren KelDar, on 09 January 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

I'm kind of curious what kind of effect just unlocking endo/FF would have on the clans. The summoner with maxed armor has 20.69 tons of pod space currently. Give it Endo as well and SSW says it gets 24, so essentially 3.5 tons.

The Stormcrow and Timber all ready have both, so they won't be getting any extra weight savings, and the Dire usually will need crits more than tonnage since it has 50.5 tons of pod space right? A lot of mechs may become better once you give them a little more tonnage to play with. It's not a huge buff to any of them though and stripping FF from the Crow or Timber shouldn't add that much benefit either.

Maybe even removing non engine heatsinks could help some. The Warhawk would keep its 13 heat sinks, but lose the 7 hardlocked ones in its torsos and legs. Might open up more builds for it, and again the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf get nothing from that change (though the Dire Wolf would get 3 tons/6 crits).

With the omni restrictions adjusted for MWO (hardpoints on pods and changing armor allocation) I think we can deviate some from the original restrictions considering how open IS customization is. Keep the hardlocked engines and any engine mounted heat sinks, but maybe try relaxing some of the other restrictions and see what happens. The lower performing omnimechs need some help and I'm saying this as an IS pilot.

I've been pondering the non engine heatsinks for a long time myself, but probably would leave them locked, at least for now. Though I admit every time I drive a Warhawk I come close to changing my mind about that.

[Ultimax]

Xeren KelDar, on 09 January 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

I'm kind of curious what kind of effect just unlocking endo/FF would have on the clans. The summoner with maxed armor has 20.69 tons of pod space currently. Give it Endo as well and SSW says it gets 24, so essentially 3.5 tons.

The Stormcrow and Timber all ready have both, so they won't be getting any extra weight savings, and the Dire usually will need crits more than tonnage since it has 50.5 tons of pod space right? A lot of mechs may become better once you give them a little more tonnage to play with. It's not a huge buff to any of them though and stripping FF from the Crow or Timber shouldn't add that much benefit either.

Maybe even removing non engine heatsinks could help some. The Warhawk would keep its 13 heat sinks, but lose the 7 hardlocked ones in its torsos and legs. Might open up more builds for it, and again the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf get nothing from that change (though the Dire Wolf would get 3 tons/6 crits).

With the omni restrictions adjusted for MWO (hardpoints on pods and changing armor allocation) I think we can deviate some from the original restrictions considering how open IS customization is. Keep the hardlocked engines and any engine mounted heat sinks, but maybe try relaxing some of the other restrictions and see what happens. The lower performing omnimechs need some help and I'm saying this as an IS pilot.

A lot of good points.

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

I've been pondering the non engine heatsinks for a long time myself, but probably would leave them locked, at least for now. Though I admit every time I drive a Warhawk I come close to changing my mind about that.

I went through just now, and these are the clan mechs with locked external heatsinks that do not need them to meet their min 10 requirements.


Nova 4
Warhawk 7
Dire Wolf 3



The Nova will likely need them in every single configuration, giving it the ability to take endo would be sufficient to add a bit more tonnage.

The Warhawk is by far the most limited by this, and this would open up not just builds but more optimal configurations because having that entire ST locked is punishing on crit heavy loads.

The Dire Wolf doesn't need more tonnage, and while I'm open to giving it Endo allowing it to remove those DHS would see it now move up to an extra 8 tons (combined with the endo change).

That takes a 6 UAC 5 build from 9 usable tons (after you slot the guns) to 16 extra tons, Quad Gauss goes from 3 tons of ammo to 10 or 11 tons of ammo...that's getting out of hand.


Easiest solution is some optional pods for the Warhawk, something like a LT pod that doesn't have any DHS in it.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 January 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

if they were keeping to canon, you could not modify your armor amounts, either.

Again, depending on the situation.

The concept of the Omni, and what made it a significant improvement on the Battlemech, was the ability to refit and rearm quickly while in the theater of operations. That and you could easily change weapons loadouts so the Omni can be terrain appropriate.

None of those things are represented in MW:O anyway, so they're moot.

If a Clan warrior has enough time to prepare for combat....let's say getting ready for a Trial....then he could easily have his 'techs modify his mech in any number of ways, including the addition of or removal of armor. It's a time/cost thing, just like the Inner Sphere....only economy is significantly different in the Clans. It's more a matter of filing paperwork and getting approval than paying out of pocket.

Ultimately, it was the decision to keep the Clans and IS tech completely separate forever that is driving the current issues over "this is OP, that is OP, he hurt me!" that we all see every day.

The idea to "balance" the Clans and IS by using the TTK vs PPFLD mechanic was a pretty good one and I'd say they've done reasonably well so far. The concept is sound. But, by keeping the tech bases separate, they're creating two separate economies, both driven by imaginary currency.

The IS economy is sound...it costs cbills to buy and modify a huge number of mechs, all the way down to internal structure and engines. That's why there's a grind, after all.

The Clan economy, however, is a dismal failure. We're treated like Inner Sphere mechwarriors insofar as we're required to grind to earn cbills. Our equipment is substantially more expensive, as it should be, but is not issued to us...we have to buy it. We have a relatively small selection of Omnis to choose from, our options to modify those Omnis are limited and due to the balancing mechanic, some of our stock builds are simply unplayable (those are the ones, by the way, that PGI executives thought would make the most appropriate trial mechs....like that Champion Stalker they had a while back).

It is what it is, man. Personally, I'd much rather see them open the tech bases and allow purchasing and installation of both types of tech. Then you'd see some of the IIC variants, or fairly close to them, running around. Players would have a choice between PPFLD and TTK....oddly enough, some of the TTK modifications actually improve it's function.

Granted, I see the concern...someone's worried that another guy will make a faster Dire Wolf or speed his Kit Fox up fast enough so that it will get the unfair advantage the Spider and Firestarter have due to their ability to move faster than the engine can render. Oh well. The "balancing" process is always going on. Adding more variety to the mix seems a better idea than beating everything with Paul's hockey racket until it's unusable.

[generalazure]

My nova approves of shiny endo, carry on.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 09 January 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

True enough, however, the same thing is possible with Omnis as well. There are any number of examples in the novels....certain Chassis being retrofitted with something that is non-standard because it's for a trial and they've got plenty of time to prepare.

It's six of one, half a dozen of another. They never should have locked out the internals on the Omnis in the first place..since they place so much stock in their pretend economy. The price of Clan XL engines is ridiculous...the same as Clan technology. Their decision to keep the two technologies separate forced them to create two separate economies...one driven by play and pretend currency, the other by purchasing another form of pretend currency with real money.

And, since at this point they seem to think both technologies have been "equalized" by TTK vs PPFLD, what's the point in keeping them separated?

PGI hasn't changed, man, they've just learned a new line.

ONE Large Difference. Clan Warriors are Trained to NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY. Ya wanna change your structure? You have to fight the trials and win them to do it.

You are ALLOWED to change the weapons or anything Not bolted down and would be harshly punished if you tried. Cause you are a genetically engineered super soldier in the most elite military in the canon universe and should be able to beat me in my not awesome Atlas with a Fire Moth and one small pulse laser. People wanna play in a game that has a shitton of back story and then people wanna rewrite that story cause it is inconvenient.

I dropped my original $60 Expecting Omnis to be Close to TT Omnis and chose Lyran as my Faction cause I wanted to be front line against the Boogieman, Godzilla & Freddie Kruger and instead I get Lord Zed and his minions

[Kalimaster]

I want to see what some of the future Clan builds have in store for us before I jump onto this boat.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

...
Easiest solution is some optional pods for the Warhawk, something like a LT pod that doesn't have any DHS in it.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with the idea of unlocking external dubs, but I do want to point out that just making "a LT pod without DHS" isn't that simple. You see, the LT DHS on the WHK aren't mounted in an Omnipod. Just like how you can remove the Flamer from any Omnimech except for the (B)Adder's CT. Why? Because some people felt like it back in the 90's. It is what it is.

I think I'll make a comparison to illustrate the dilemma here. You see, Omnipods are like drawers...



(Excuse my horribad GIMP skillz).


The green colored drawers are your "Omnipods" on this piece of furniture. You can put stuff in and out of them as you like. They can be customized easily.

The purple colored part, however, can't just be exchanged like you're referring to. You'd have to break out your hacksaw and other tools and take it apart manually to change the purple part of the picture. In the case of our beloved WHK, those dubs in the left torso are actually counted as the "purple part" instead of green part. You'd need to tear it apart and rebuild it from the ground up to get rid of them, at least that's how the original Omnimech rules are described as working.

Of course, it would have been smarter of the engineers to simply put the dubs in a "drawer" green part instead of the frame purple part, but they were probably drinking and/or smoking when they did it...

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I'm not going to agree or disagree with the idea of unlocking external dubs, but I do want to point out that just making "a LT pod without DHS" isn't that simple. You see, the LT DHS on the WHK aren't mounted in an Omnipod. Just like how you can remove the Flamer from any Omnimech except for the (B)Adder's CT. Why? Because some people felt like it back in the 90's. It is what it is.

I think I'll make a comparison to illustrate the dilemma here. You see, Omnipods are like drawers...



(Excuse my horribad GIMP skillz).


The green colored drawers are your "Omnipods" on this piece of furniture. You can put stuff in and out of them as you like. They can be customized easily.

The purple colored part, however, can't just be exchanged like you're referring to. You'd have to break out your hacksaw and other tools and take it apart manually to change the purple part of the picture. In the case of our beloved WHK, those dubs in the left torso are actually counted as the "purple part" instead of green part. You'd need to tear it apart and rebuild it from the ground up to get rid of them, at least that's how the original Omnimech rules are described as working.

Of course, it would have been smarter of the engineers to simply put the dubs in a "drawer" green part instead of the frame purple part, but they were probably drinking and/or smoking when they did it...

Are you talking about MWO or TT?

Because in MWO you can clearly swap in and out of pods that do or do not have locked equipment (JJs: Kit Fox, Timber Wolf).


So the tech to do this for PGI already exists.

If you're talking about TT, to be blunt I don't care.

I don't personally feel beholden to some stupid rule made several decades ago by games designers who had different priorities for what is effectively a completely different game.


The Warhawk in that game does not really resemble the one in this game.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 January 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I'm not going to agree or disagree with the idea of unlocking external dubs, but I do want to point out that just making "a LT pod without DHS" isn't that simple. You see, the LT DHS on the WHK aren't mounted in an Omnipod. Just like how you can remove the Flamer from any Omnimech except for the (B)Adder's CT. Why? Because some people felt like it back in the 90's. It is what it is.

I think I'll make a comparison to illustrate the dilemma here. You see, Omnipods are like drawers...



(Excuse my horribad GIMP skillz).


The green colored drawers are your "Omnipods" on this piece of furniture. You can put stuff in and out of them as you like. They can be customized easily.

The purple colored part, however, can't just be exchanged like you're referring to. You'd have to break out your hacksaw and other tools and take it apart manually to change the purple part of the picture. In the case of our beloved WHK, those dubs in the left torso are actually counted as the "purple part" instead of green part. You'd need to tear it apart and rebuild it from the ground up to get rid of them, at least that's how the original Omnimech rules are described as working.

Of course, it would have been smarter of the engineers to simply put the dubs in a "drawer" green part instead of the frame purple part, but they were probably drinking and/or smoking when they did it...

while what you say is technically true, it would be very easy for them to simply make them part of the LT "Pod".

Canon? No. Simple, yes.

And had the engineers really been "smart" all external sinks would be DHS and omni, period. (Doesn't make sense for the clans, resource strapped to have a separate factory and line devoted to SHS on mechs like the Piranha. It would be more cost effective and less wasteful to simply mount DHS on everything.)

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 January 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

ONE Large Difference. Clan Warriors are Trained to NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY. Ya wanna change your structure? You have to fight the trials and win them to do it.

You are ALLOWED to change the weapons or anything Not bolted down and would be harshly punished if you tried. Cause you are a genetically engineered super soldier in the most elite military in the canon universe and should be able to beat me in my not awesome Atlas with a Fire Moth and one small pulse laser. People wanna play in a game that has a shitton of back story and then people wanna rewrite that story cause it is inconvenient.

I dropped my original $60 Expecting Omnis to be Close to TT Omnis and chose Lyran as my Faction cause I wanted to be front line against the Boogieman, Godzilla & Freddie Kruger and instead I get Lord Zed and his minions

Sure, however, you're also applying an Inner Sphere mentality to a militaristic culture as well. It's a lot easier to "not question authority" when you're considered the top of the pecking order....to the point where you basically bully the lower castes. Each mechwarrior that passes his trial of position is going to have a number of Astechs assigned to his ride. It's the military, you know how it works.

Getting your 'techs to change out an engine, let's say, is just as easy for them to accomplish as it is for IS 'techs, possibly even easier. The difference is, in the Clans, you'd have to file the appropriate paperwork explaining the necessity of the change. Once approved by whatever level is required, it passes down to your 'techs and the job gets done.

In the IS, you find a 'mechbay and the appropriate people to get the job done, pay them and wait (or, if you're in a unit...well, we both know how that works, right? Some units have trouble keeping their maintenance up to date, let alone upgrading).


Again, it's moot. Which is probably the way it should be. How could you possibly work some kind of "issued equipment" thing into a F2P game that pretty much works like Mercenaries?

I wonder just how long the "invasion" has to take place before the question of using Clan 'tech comes up again. A year? Two? Eventually it's going to come to the point where people are going to start asking why they can't put a CUAC10 on their Atlas. Personally, I have no problem with it. Someone wants to trade their PPFLD for TTK....they're reasonably balanced, works for me.

Some Clanner wants to put an IS AC5 on his TW because he wants PPFLD instead of TTK? Ok...you get to deal with the weight and space allocation, just like everyone else. Tired of your XL Stalker dying every time it loses a ST? Use a Clan XL engine.....they're damned expensive, but worth the cost.

I really don't see the big deal at this point. And the "balancing act" is a work in progress....as long as they continue down these lines, it only makes sense.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Are you talking about MWO or TT?

Because in MWO you can clearly swap in and out of pods that do or do not have locked equipment (JJs: Kit Fox, Timber Wolf).


So the tech to do this for PGI already exists.

If you're talking about TT, to be blunt I don't care.

I don't personally feel beholden to some stupid rule made several decades ago by game's designers who had completely different priorities for what is effectively a completely different game.

The JJs thing is an exception that PGI made for some weird reason that I'll never understand. Those are normally supposed to be removable and addable at will like weapons are...

Besides that, the JJs aren't attached to the "base chassis," PGI just fused them to the Omnipod. If they were actually wired to the "base chassis," then you would have those JJs in there no matter what pods you're using.


MWO is currently still using the TT rules for the rest of the equipment, for better or for worse. Well, excluding the fact that we have hardpoints to deal with instead of mounting anything anywhere if we have space and tonnage. It would be funny to see a Summoner with 20+ Machine Guns, which could be done on any Omnimech at their wim...

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 10:01 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 10 January 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Are you talking about MWO or TT?

Because in MWO you can clearly swap in and out of pods that do or do not have locked equipment (JJs: Kit Fox, Timber Wolf).


So the tech to do this for PGI already exists.

If you're talking about TT, to be blunt I don't care.

I don't personally feel beholden to some stupid rule made several decades ago by games designers who had different priorities for what is effectively a completely different game.


The Warhawk in that game does not really resemble the one in this game.

i think you are mixing up Joe and Fup here. Can't recall Fub really ever making arguments based on "Cuz TT".

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

while what you say is technically true, it would be very easy for them to simply make them part of the LT "Pod".

Canon? No. Simple, yes.

And had the engineers really been "smart" all external sinks would be DHS and omni, period. (Doesn't make sense for the clans, resource strapped to have a separate factory and line devoted to SHS on mechs like the Piranha. It would be more cost effective and less wasteful to simply mount DHS on everything.)

Keep in mind I'm not saying what I like or dislike here, I'm just the messenger reporting the news about how the system works.

As for efficiency, yeah FASA has quite a history with making suboptimal stock designs. TT has everything ranging from the horrible Locusts and Jagermechs to the godmode metarape like the Devastator, Hellstar, Rifleman IIC, etc. I can take almost any mech and swap guns, engine, armor, etc. to make a robot that is at least "slightly" better.

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Vanguard836]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 January 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

ONE Large Difference. Clan Warriors are Trained to NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY. Ya wanna change your structure? You have to fight the trials and win them to do it.

You are ALLOWED to change the weapons or anything Not bolted down and would be harshly punished if you tried. Cause you are a genetically engineered super soldier in the most elite military in the canon universe and should be able to beat me in my not awesome Atlas with a Fire Moth and one small pulse laser. People wanna play in a game that has a shitton of back story and then people wanna rewrite that story cause it is inconvenient.

I dropped my original $60 Expecting Omnis to be Close to TT Omnis and chose Lyran as my Faction cause I wanted to be front line against the Boogieman, Godzilla & Freddie Kruger and instead I get Lord Zed and his minions

But this isn't clan warriors, these are players, saying people wanna play in a game that has a ton of back story is partially accurate, some want this to be a TT port, some do not and some want one of the many shades of grey in between. Now because of the nature of the game some modification were required as you know, this could be one that is needed. The extra tonnage would be greatly helpful to these mechs because they allready have so little to spare compared to the other ones. Omnis allready have affected by the necessary modification to clan weapons, which may or may not help, and cause other issues, if they were as per TT "specs" but that's allready debated heavily in other threads, I do not wish to shift this thread to such a discussion here.

As for the suggestion of removing fixed heatsink I'm not too keen on it. My view is that while endo and/or FF should be allowed to be put on if it's not already present, to modify something that is not fixed indicated as a fixed piece of equipement on the mech, such as the Adder's Flamer. To allow the removal of fixed heatsinks would open up the premises as to why we can't modify them from A to Z. It would also allow some of the more powerfull mechs to potentialy become more powerfull, which is why I beleive the original starting point of this thread is a better idea.

Edited by Vanguard836, 10 January 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 January 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

ONE Large Difference. Clan Warriors are Trained to NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY. Ya wanna change your structure? You have to fight the trials and win them to do it.

You are ALLOWED to change the weapons or anything Not bolted down and would be harshly punished if you tried. Cause you are a genetically engineered super soldier in the most elite military in the canon universe and should be able to beat me in my not awesome Atlas with a Fire Moth and one small pulse laser. People wanna play in a game that has a shitton of back story and then people wanna rewrite that story cause it is inconvenient.

I dropped my original $60 Expecting Omnis to be Close to TT Omnis and chose Lyran as my Faction cause I wanted to be front line against the Boogieman, Godzilla & Freddie Kruger and instead I get Lord Zed and his minions

Willard Phule, on 10 January 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Sure, however, you're also applying an Inner Sphere mentality to a militaristic culture as well. It's a lot easier to "not question authority" when you're considered the top of the pecking order....to the point where you basically bully the lower castes. Each mechwarrior that passes his trial of position is going to have a number of Astechs assigned to his ride. It's the military, you know how it works.

Getting your 'techs to change out an engine, let's say, is just as easy for them to accomplish as it is for IS 'techs, possibly even easier. The difference is, in the Clans, you'd have to file the appropriate paperwork explaining the necessity of the change. Once approved by whatever level is required, it passes down to your 'techs and the job gets done.

In the IS, you find a 'mechbay and the appropriate people to get the job done, pay them and wait (or, if you're in a unit...well, we both know how that works, right? Some units have trouble keeping their maintenance up to date, let alone upgrading).


Again, it's moot. Which is probably the way it should be. How could you possibly work some kind of "issued equipment" thing into a F2P game that pretty much works like Mercenaries?

I wonder just how long the "invasion" has to take place before the question of using Clan 'tech comes up again. A year? Two? Eventually it's going to come to the point where people are going to start asking why they can't put a CUAC10 on their Atlas. Personally, I have no problem with it. Someone wants to trade their PPFLD for TTK....they're reasonably balanced, works for me.

Some Clanner wants to put an IS AC5 on his TW because he wants PPFLD instead of TTK? Ok...you get to deal with the weight and space allocation, just like everyone else. Tired of your XL Stalker dying every time it loses a ST? Use a Clan XL engine.....they're damned expensive, but worth the cost.

I really don't see the big deal at this point. And the "balancing act" is a work in progress....as long as they continue down these lines, it only makes sense.

Well, if you want to be technical, outside of a complete one off, custom job for Solaris Arena, you should not be able to swap standard IS for Endo on any mech in either fiction.

This is the skeleton the whole dang mech is engineered around. Not just for weight, but bulk. You are essentially building a ground up new chassis at this point, because none of the "stock" chassis components will even FIT around the much bulkier, new skeleton. (Doubly so for a plug and play design like an Omnimech, where literally changing the bulkiness of any location is the difference between a pod socket fitting or not)

To get a properly engineered one, would cost as much, in R&D as the entire mech, if not more. You could "West Coast Choppers" one, but you would likely have a huge amount of unexpected consequences and tradeoffs involved.

Short of being ungodly rich, or a high ranking House Noble, no house military is going to go to that expense. Realistically, no Merc Unit not named Wolf Dragoons or Kell Hounds could afford it (and even they would be wasting a monumental amount of funds for essentially the whims and vanity of a single warrior) and short of being a Khan, it would never happen in the Clans, ever. (Being a Khan, especially one with Stackpolian powers, did allow the rebuilding of Grinner, after all).


That said........

we aren't really being beholden by lore, obviously, or the IS mechs wouldn't be able to swap for endo, either.

Since they can, and all the top tier Omnis that CAN realistically use Endo, already have it, and we are talking about balancing a PvP FPS video game, with 2 "different" tech bases, the simplest way to get that baseline to actually work out balance for clans and clans vs IS, is to allow Omnis to swap endo, also, though as with existing endo mechs, with predetermined, static, critical placement.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

The JJs thing is an exception that PGI made for some weird reason that I'll never understand. Those are normally supposed to be removable and addable at will like weapons are...

Besides that, the JJs aren't attached to the "base chassis," PGI just fused them to the Omnipod. If they were actually wired to the "base chassis," then you would have those JJs in there no matter what pods you're using.


MWO is currently still using the TT rules for the rest of the equipment, for better or for worse. Well, excluding the fact that we have hardpoints to deal with instead of mounting anything anywhere if we have space and tonnage. It would be funny to see a Summoner with 20+ Machine Guns, which could be done on any Omnimech at their wim...

eh, actually, "on a whim" is not accurate. While technically possible, only high ranking warriors and Ristars were ever allowed to make custom omnipods. There's a reason almost all clan warriors drive one of the "featured" configurations. (Logistics would be a nightmare if everyone just went all willy nilly like previous MW titles allowed).

Heck even most Star Colonels and Khans ran stock machines. In most cases, the Mech was built for the role, not the pilot, and Clan Thinking, rarely bred the individualist thinking like Natasha Kerensky's to feel a need for a "special" build. To the Clans it was the warrior, and the machine was simply using the appropriate tool for the mission.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

i think you are mixing up Joe and Fup here. Can't recall Fub really ever making arguments based on "Cuz TT".

I'm certainly quite guilty of ignoring corerules...

In this case I've actually grown to accept the Omni system (for the most part). Which is actually very ironic, because before the Clans came, I know that I hated them and asked for the Omnimechs to be handled like 100% like Battlemechs instead (like previous MW games did). I think I might also remember you being on the opposite side?

The Mister-Potatohead system of pod swapping is more fun than I expected it to be, and trying to work around the restricted base chassis proved to be an interesting min-max challenge (except for really bad base chassis like the Gargles...). It's kind of like a puzzle, trying to fit all of the pieces into place just right...

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 10 January 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I'm certainly quite guilty of ignoring corerules...

In this case I've actually grown to accept the Omni system (for the most part). Which is actually very ironic, because before the Clans came, I know that I hated them and asked for the Omnimechs to be handled like 100% like Battlemechs instead (like previous MW games did). I think I might also remember you being on the opposite side?

The Mister-Potatohead system of pod swapping is more fun than I expected it to be, and trying to work around the restricted base chassis proved to be an interesting min-max challenge (except for really bad base chassis like the Gargles...). It's kind of like a puzzle, trying to fit all of the pieces into place just right...

Indeed.

It's one reason that even when I disagree with you, I'll listen to your argument. I have a "baseline" I work from, but am not inflexible about changes when they become apparent, thru design, or realistic ability to achieve, are needed.

I just don't like to sway willy nilly, and tend to hold course until I really see that the tangible pros and cons have been thoroughly explored, as opposed to a lot of posts on here that fall to either the extremes of "this is how it should be, period" intractability (be it pro-lore, or anti-lore) or those who have panic kneejerk reactions to everything and toss out ideas that any amount of rational thought show contain more flaws than answers.

Or of course, the 3rd school which is the "I have an agenda and don't want my fotm ezmode mech touched".

Of course, none of us are truly objective, and all our outlooks at least lean toward these from time to time, but usually, there are certain people on here I can rely on to make solid arguments for their position, and likewise be willing to change their view if solid evidence or thought counters it.