Edited by LordNothing, 18 December 2015 - 10:32 PM.
Pgi, Please Consider "free Endo 4 The Poor" And Underprivileged Omnimechs Not Named Timber Wolf Or Storm Crow?
#601
Posted 18 December 2015 - 10:21 PM
#602
Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:56 AM
LordNothing, on 18 December 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:
Here is the difference, with unlocked ES/FF:
HBK-IIC (with an ERSL to account for the extra JJ)
It has, with the same armor, same JJ count, same XL250, same DHS... 4 tons to spare. Well, 3.91, but that could be trimmed to 3 effortlessly.
4 tons more ammo makes that a MUCH more viable build.
Or, alternatively, go with +2 tons ammo, and 2 ERML to get more dps downrange and make those locked DHS worthwhile.
Edited by Wintersdark, 19 December 2015 - 08:57 AM.
#603
Posted 14 July 2016 - 11:19 AM
It'd be nice to see the Suckoner™ with endo and maybe even poor Mister Gargles and his superior brother the Executioner.
#604
Posted 14 July 2016 - 11:44 AM
Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:
It'd be nice to see the Suckoner™ with endo and maybe even poor Mister Gargles and his superior brother the Executioner.
Amen. It would be one step amongst many to actually start seeing something remotely resembling balance occur, too.
But I admit.... I just want to be able to run my Summoner "Super" Stock. 3.5 tons allows me to max armor and put ammo to acceptable levels.
#605
Posted 14 July 2016 - 11:47 AM
We all kown that TRO loadouts are just as holy as weapon stats, and PGI would never adjust weapon stats. That said, they will never touch TRO loadouts.
Edited by Prosperity Park, 14 July 2016 - 11:48 AM.
#606
Posted 14 July 2016 - 11:58 AM
Giving the Mad Dog Endosteel instead of FFA would make it a tier1 Mech an upset the balance of the game, obviously
#607
Posted 14 July 2016 - 12:16 PM
Prosperity Park, on 14 July 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:
Giving the Mad Dog Endosteel instead of FFA would make it a tier1 Mech an upset the balance of the game, obviously
IDK, even with Endo MDD has some mighty big racks. Might keep it tier 2.
#608
Posted 14 July 2016 - 01:23 PM
#609
Posted 14 July 2016 - 01:30 PM
just replace all armor slots with endo slots.
Edited by Navid A1, 14 July 2016 - 01:36 PM.
#610
Posted 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM
SmoothCriminal, on 14 July 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:
PGI has determined that locked components are the price that omnis pay for being able to change their hard points. Battlemechs can't change their hard points, but can alter their internal components. I'd say thats a pretty balanced way to go or else Battlemechs become strait out obsolete.
#611
Posted 14 July 2016 - 02:03 PM
Prosperity Park, on 14 July 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:
We all kown that TRO loadouts are just as holy as weapon stats, and PGI would never adjust weapon stats. That said, they will never touch TRO loadouts.
But weapon hard point inflation...but omnipods with interchangeable weapons..
Why not endo
#612
Posted 14 July 2016 - 02:08 PM
SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:
PGI has determined that locked components are the price that omnis pay for being able to change their hard points. Battlemechs can't change their hard points, but can alter their internal components. I'd say thats a pretty balanced way to go or else Battlemechs become strait out obsolete.
Yes because hardpoint inflation and optional engines aren't a thing.
#613
Posted 14 July 2016 - 02:22 PM
SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:
PGI has determined that locked components are the price that omnis pay for being able to change their hard points. Battlemechs can't change their hard points, but can alter their internal components. I'd say thats a pretty balanced way to go or else Battlemechs become strait out obsolete.
You need to understand: locked upgrades are not a working balance mechanism. All they do is predetermine whether a mech is good or not. The summoner is bad because it lacks ES and FF - that results directly in it having more critical slots that it can use, but roughly 8 tons less payload space than a 70t mech with those upgrades.
This isn't balanced. It's arbitrary. It results in the Timberwolf being awesome, the summoner being trash.
In the case of Battlemechs, while you're ostensibly limited by hard points, PGI has always used hard point inflation to ensure you can replace large weapons with multiple (theoretically) smaller ones, and to increase build variety. Unlocked engines allow far more granular build modifications.
Locked ES/FF was a painfully stupid idea from the get go that doesn't help balance IS vs. Clans in the slightest bit, it just arbitrarily wrecks mechs regardless of whether they'd have been very good or mediocre to start with.
#614
Posted 14 July 2016 - 03:38 PM
Wintersdark, on 14 July 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:
You need to understand: locked upgrades are not a working balance mechanism. All they do is predetermine whether a mech is good or not. The summoner is bad because it lacks ES and FF - that results directly in it having more critical slots that it can use, but roughly 8 tons less payload space than a 70t mech with those upgrades.
This isn't balanced. It's arbitrary. It results in the Timberwolf being awesome, the summoner being trash.
In the case of Battlemechs, while you're ostensibly limited by hard points, PGI has always used hard point inflation to ensure you can replace large weapons with multiple (theoretically) smaller ones, and to increase build variety. Unlocked engines allow far more granular build modifications.
Locked ES/FF was a painfully stupid idea from the get go that doesn't help balance IS vs. Clans in the slightest bit, it just arbitrarily wrecks mechs regardless of whether they'd have been very good or mediocre to start with.
Well, this is not 100% true, but part of the puzzle.
It is locked without Endo/Ferro and does indeed have 5 tons of locked JJ, and 4 internal DHS. But what combines to make it such an issue, overall is it's lack of hardpoints. The Nova shares most of these flaws, but has (energy) hardpoints in great abundance. And while still niche, it can perform. Aside from a few people who make Poptarts or Missile Vomit builds work, the Summoner just has the worst of all worlds.
Low free tonnage, and limited hardpoints. But boosting hardpoints will simply turn it into yet another laserboat (oh, how rare and unusual!!!). Freeing up tonnage might just let it do what it's meant to do, and bringer fewer, but bigger guns, effectively.
#615
Posted 14 July 2016 - 03:43 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:
Well, this is not 100% true, but part of the puzzle.
It is locked without Endo/Ferro and does indeed have 5 tons of locked JJ, and 4 internal DHS. But what combines to make it such an issue, overall is it's lack of hardpoints. The Nova shares most of these flaws, but has (energy) hardpoints in great abundance. And while still niche, it can perform. Aside from a few people who make Poptarts or Missile Vomit builds work, the Summoner just has the worst of all worlds.
Low free tonnage, and limited hardpoints. But boosting hardpoints will simply turn it into yet another laserboat (oh, how rare and unusual!!!). Freeing up tonnage might just let it do what it's meant to do, and bringer fewer, but bigger guns, effectively.
QFT
#616
Posted 14 July 2016 - 04:33 PM
Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:
Well, this is not 100% true, but part of the puzzle.
It is locked without Endo/Ferro and does indeed have 5 tons of locked JJ, and 4 internal DHS. But what combines to make it such an issue, overall is it's lack of hardpoints. The Nova shares most of these flaws, but has (energy) hardpoints in great abundance. And while still niche, it can perform. Aside from a few people who make Poptarts or Missile Vomit builds work, the Summoner just has the worst of all worlds.
Low free tonnage, and limited hardpoints. But boosting hardpoints will simply turn it into yet another laserboat (oh, how rare and unusual!!!). Freeing up tonnage might just let it do what it's meant to do, and bringer fewer, but bigger guns, effectively.
This is as it pertains to the summoner (and thus more on topic).
You either need lots of tonnage to pack a few big guns, or lots of hard points to pack lots of small guns (or obviously both to do whatever you want).
My post, though, was more about how locking ES/FF isn't really a balance mechanic at all, it's just a randomly applied nerf. With very few exceptions, all clan mechs will run Endosteel, for example, and the 7 slot cost is utterly irrelevant. Most would run both ES and FF. Unlike locked engines, which forces the mech to be so.ething specific, locked ES/FF just serve to arbitrarily limit a mechs available to have with no real trade off.
Of course, which you want (if any) is dependent on hardpoint allotment, and that's what really makes the locked upgrades random - you've either got a good set for the builds you can run, or you don't.
Just two different aspects of the same problem.
I harp on ES/FF, though, for a reason I'm sure you in particular would appreciate. In terms of builds that will appear on the battlefield, unlocked ES will simply allow "Summoner" builds - ones you'd EXPECT to see on a summoner. The same applies to most of the other poor Omnimechs.
Because stock builds, particular with regards to the heat system (so different than Tabletop) and ammo requirements (double armor, structure, quirks, etc) are simply non-viable in MWO.
Changing hardpoints would change what summoners are, and that's terrible. Adding lasers would certainly not make it great, but it wouldn't be a summoner anymore either. Allowing it to pack in an extra 3.5 tons of armor/DHS would allow it to be a Summoner.
#617
Posted 14 July 2016 - 05:46 PM
SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:
well its abit Diffrent, for example you could have unlocked Upgrades,
but have what slots they take up Fixed, this would still be Asimetrical Balance BattleMechs Vs OmniMechs,
also Their are Lore Examples and TT Rules,
Allowing the MDD, SMN, GAR, WHK EXE, to Trade their Ferro for Endo(Fixed Slots Stay the Same)
and OmniMechs Changing their Engine Types(STD-to-LFE-to-XL-to-XXL),
Both are in the Rules and in Lore, so why cant we,
#619
Posted 14 July 2016 - 06:30 PM
SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:
Often than Not Hardpoint inflation and Changing Engines/Upgrades is better than OmniPods,
See Adder, ShadowCat, Nova, Maddog, Summoner, Gargoyle, WarHawk, even the Executioner,
#620
Posted 20 July 2016 - 07:50 AM
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