653 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

i suppose endo will help. even if it just had 2 tons unlocked running something like a pair of uac5s would be feasable. i have a dual uac5 build and its good for 2 kills tops. it just cant carry the ammo. it runs out 5 minutes in. it is a beast though if you stack ballistics quirks, strip the arms, and put the guns in the torsos. but with only 3.5 tons ammo its kind of lame. here is the build, its pretty awesome when you look at the quirks in the arms. but blink and you are out of ammo.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 December 2015 - 10:32 PM.

[Wintersdark]

LordNothing, on 18 December 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

i suppose endo will help. even if it just had 2 tons unlocked running something like a pair of uac5s would be feasable. i have a dual uac5 build and its good for 2 kills tops. it just cant carry the ammo. it runs out 5 minutes in. it is a beast though if you stack ballistics quirks, strip the arms, and put the guns in the torsos. but with only 3.5 tons ammo its kind of lame. here is the build, its pretty awesome when you look at the quirks in the arms. but blink and you are out of ammo.

Here is the difference, with unlocked ES/FF:

HBK-IIC (with an ERSL to account for the extra JJ)

It has, with the same armor, same JJ count, same XL250, same DHS... 4 tons to spare. Well, 3.91, but that could be trimmed to 3 effortlessly.

4 tons more ammo makes that a MUCH more viable build.

Or, alternatively, go with +2 tons ammo, and 2 ERML to get more dps downrange and make those locked DHS worthwhile.

Edited by Wintersdark, 19 December 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

This thread should be alive.




It'd be nice to see the Suckoner™ with endo and maybe even poor Mister Gargles and his superior brother the Executioner.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 14 July 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

This thread should be alive.




It'd be nice to see the Suckoner™ with endo and maybe even poor Mister Gargles and his superior brother the Executioner.

Amen. It would be one step amongst many to actually start seeing something remotely resembling balance occur, too.

But I admit.... I just want to be able to run my Summoner "Super" Stock. 3.5 tons allows me to max armor and put ammo to acceptable levels.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Why should we necro a thread with a perfectly reasonable request? How dare you suggest they deviate from official BT source stats?!

We all kown that TRO loadouts are just as holy as weapon stats, and PGI would never adjust weapon stats. That said, they will never touch TRO loadouts.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 14 July 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

For example: the Mad Dog has FFA instead of ES, even though it saves less weight than ES. However, you cannot swap them because TRO says so.

Giving the Mad Dog Endosteel instead of FFA would make it a tier1 Mech an upset the balance of the game, obviously

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 14 July 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

For example: the Mad Dog has FFA instead of ES, even though it saves less weight than ES. However, you cannot swap them because TRO says so.

Giving the Mad Dog Endosteel instead of FFA would make it a tier1 Mech an upset the balance of the game, obviously

IDK, even with Endo MDD has some mighty big racks. Might keep it tier 2.

[SmoothCriminal]

the TT lore is irrelevant here. Unlocked components/FF/ES would help the lower tier mechs be more competitive without the need for subjective quirks.

[Navid A1]

Swapping upgrades could really help on underperforming mechs, without creating any problems regarding crit locations...
just replace all armor slots with endo slots.

Edited by Navid A1, 14 July 2016 - 01:36 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

SmoothCriminal, on 14 July 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

the TT lore is irrelevant here. Unlocked components/FF/ES would help the lower tier mechs be more competitive without the need for subjective quirks.

PGI has determined that locked components are the price that omnis pay for being able to change their hard points. Battlemechs can't change their hard points, but can alter their internal components. I'd say thats a pretty balanced way to go or else Battlemechs become strait out obsolete.

[C E Dwyer]

Prosperity Park, on 14 July 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

Why should we necro a thread with a perfectly reasonable request? How dare you suggest they deviate from official BT source stats?!

We all kown that TRO loadouts are just as holy as weapon stats, and PGI would never adjust weapon stats. That said, they will never touch TRO loadouts.

But weapon hard point inflation...but omnipods with interchangeable weapons..

Why not endo

[Bishop Steiner]

SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

PGI has determined that locked components are the price that omnis pay for being able to change their hard points. Battlemechs can't change their hard points, but can alter their internal components. I'd say thats a pretty balanced way to go or else Battlemechs become strait out obsolete.

Yes because hardpoint inflation and optional engines aren't a thing.

[Wintersdark]

SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

PGI has determined that locked components are the price that omnis pay for being able to change their hard points. Battlemechs can't change their hard points, but can alter their internal components. I'd say thats a pretty balanced way to go or else Battlemechs become strait out obsolete.

You could say that, but you'd be wrong, and sadly short-sighted.

You need to understand: locked upgrades are not a working balance mechanism. All they do is predetermine whether a mech is good or not. The summoner is bad because it lacks ES and FF - that results directly in it having more critical slots that it can use, but roughly 8 tons less payload space than a 70t mech with those upgrades.

This isn't balanced. It's arbitrary. It results in the Timberwolf being awesome, the summoner being trash.

In the case of Battlemechs, while you're ostensibly limited by hard points, PGI has always used hard point inflation to ensure you can replace large weapons with multiple (theoretically) smaller ones, and to increase build variety. Unlocked engines allow far more granular build modifications.

Locked ES/FF was a painfully stupid idea from the get go that doesn't help balance IS vs. Clans in the slightest bit, it just arbitrarily wrecks mechs regardless of whether they'd have been very good or mediocre to start with.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 14 July 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

You could say that, but you'd be wrong, and sadly short-sighted.

You need to understand: locked upgrades are not a working balance mechanism. All they do is predetermine whether a mech is good or not. The summoner is bad because it lacks ES and FF - that results directly in it having more critical slots that it can use, but roughly 8 tons less payload space than a 70t mech with those upgrades.

This isn't balanced. It's arbitrary. It results in the Timberwolf being awesome, the summoner being trash.

In the case of Battlemechs, while you're ostensibly limited by hard points, PGI has always used hard point inflation to ensure you can replace large weapons with multiple (theoretically) smaller ones, and to increase build variety. Unlocked engines allow far more granular build modifications.

Locked ES/FF was a painfully stupid idea from the get go that doesn't help balance IS vs. Clans in the slightest bit, it just arbitrarily wrecks mechs regardless of whether they'd have been very good or mediocre to start with.

Well, this is not 100% true, but part of the puzzle.

It is locked without Endo/Ferro and does indeed have 5 tons of locked JJ, and 4 internal DHS. But what combines to make it such an issue, overall is it's lack of hardpoints. The Nova shares most of these flaws, but has (energy) hardpoints in great abundance. And while still niche, it can perform. Aside from a few people who make Poptarts or Missile Vomit builds work, the Summoner just has the worst of all worlds.

Low free tonnage, and limited hardpoints. But boosting hardpoints will simply turn it into yet another laserboat (oh, how rare and unusual!!!). Freeing up tonnage might just let it do what it's meant to do, and bringer fewer, but bigger guns, effectively.

[Navid A1]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Well, this is not 100% true, but part of the puzzle.

It is locked without Endo/Ferro and does indeed have 5 tons of locked JJ, and 4 internal DHS. But what combines to make it such an issue, overall is it's lack of hardpoints. The Nova shares most of these flaws, but has (energy) hardpoints in great abundance. And while still niche, it can perform. Aside from a few people who make Poptarts or Missile Vomit builds work, the Summoner just has the worst of all worlds.

Low free tonnage, and limited hardpoints. But boosting hardpoints will simply turn it into yet another laserboat (oh, how rare and unusual!!!). Freeing up tonnage might just let it do what it's meant to do, and bringer fewer, but bigger guns, effectively.

QFT

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Well, this is not 100% true, but part of the puzzle.

It is locked without Endo/Ferro and does indeed have 5 tons of locked JJ, and 4 internal DHS. But what combines to make it such an issue, overall is it's lack of hardpoints. The Nova shares most of these flaws, but has (energy) hardpoints in great abundance. And while still niche, it can perform. Aside from a few people who make Poptarts or Missile Vomit builds work, the Summoner just has the worst of all worlds.

Low free tonnage, and limited hardpoints. But boosting hardpoints will simply turn it into yet another laserboat (oh, how rare and unusual!!!). Freeing up tonnage might just let it do what it's meant to do, and bringer fewer, but bigger guns, effectively.

This is as it pertains to the summoner (and thus more on topic).

You either need lots of tonnage to pack a few big guns, or lots of hard points to pack lots of small guns (or obviously both to do whatever you want).

My post, though, was more about how locking ES/FF isn't really a balance mechanic at all, it's just a randomly applied nerf. With very few exceptions, all clan mechs will run Endosteel, for example, and the 7 slot cost is utterly irrelevant. Most would run both ES and FF. Unlike locked engines, which forces the mech to be so.ething specific, locked ES/FF just serve to arbitrarily limit a mechs available to have with no real trade off.

Of course, which you want (if any) is dependent on hardpoint allotment, and that's what really makes the locked upgrades random - you've either got a good set for the builds you can run, or you don't.

Just two different aspects of the same problem.


I harp on ES/FF, though, for a reason I'm sure you in particular would appreciate. In terms of builds that will appear on the battlefield, unlocked ES will simply allow "Summoner" builds - ones you'd EXPECT to see on a summoner. The same applies to most of the other poor Omnimechs.

Because stock builds, particular with regards to the heat system (so different than Tabletop) and ammo requirements (double armor, structure, quirks, etc) are simply non-viable in MWO.

Changing hardpoints would change what summoners are, and that's terrible. Adding lasers would certainly not make it great, but it wouldn't be a summoner anymore either. Allowing it to pack in an extra 3.5 tons of armor/DHS would allow it to be a Summoner.

[Andi Nagasia]

SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

PGI has determined that locked components are the price that omnis pay for being able to change their hard points. Battlemechs can't change their hard points, but can alter their internal components. I'd say thats a pretty balanced way to go or else Battlemechs become strait out obsolete.

well its abit Diffrent, for example you could have unlocked Upgrades,
but have what slots they take up Fixed, this would still be Asimetrical Balance BattleMechs Vs OmniMechs,

also Their are Lore Examples and TT Rules,
Allowing the MDD, SMN, GAR, WHK EXE, to Trade their Ferro for Endo(Fixed Slots Stay the Same)
and OmniMechs Changing their Engine Types(STD-to-LFE-to-XL-to-XXL),
Both are in the Rules and in Lore, so why cant we,

[SMDMadCow]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Yes because hardpoint inflation and optional engines aren't a thing.

I didnt say it was handled correctly, this is PGI after all.

[Andi Nagasia]

SMDMadCow, on 14 July 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

I didnt say it was handled correctly, this is PGI after all.

Often than Not Hardpoint inflation and Changing Engines/Upgrades is better than OmniPods,
See Adder, ShadowCat, Nova, Maddog, Summoner, Gargoyle, WarHawk, even the Executioner,

[Anakha]

All the mechs that lack endo on the Clan side need it for the tonnage need to keep pushing PGI for this.