653 replies to this topic

[Gorgo7]

Yes great idea! PGI should remove FF or Endo from all clan mechs that sport both.
This would go along way to balancing the clans to each other as well as the the IS. We should also allow all IS mechs to use Clan weapons as "New tech". This would counter the imbalance that the clan has with their superior XL engines.
How about we do the above BEFORE toughening up the rest of the Clan arsenal by giving them all maximum structural bonuses.
Worst idea ever.

[Brain Cancer]

Disagree. Bit by bit, unlocking "locked" pieces of Omnis just pushes them closer to being normal mechs with flexible hardpoints.

If a base chassis has that kind of payload issues, quirk it up like they do deficient IS chassis. Summoner's stuck with Ferro instead of Endo? Beef up it's internal structure a bit. Tick it's heat sinkage up so it runs exceptionally cool with it's lower weapon payload. That sort of thing.

[Pariah Devalis]

Brain Cancer, on 20 July 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

Disagree. Bit by bit, unlocking "locked" pieces of Omnis just pushes them closer to being normal mechs with flexible hardpoints.

If a base chassis has that kind of payload issues, quirk it up like they do deficient IS chassis. Summoner's stuck with Ferro instead of Endo? Beef up it's internal structure a bit. Tick it's heat sinkage up so it runs exceptionally cool with it's lower weapon payload. That sort of thing.

Problem with quirking it like IS mechs is it doesn't suffer the same sort of problems that IS mechs have. No IS mech is hardlocked to a fixed amount of free space. The engine can be changed. Internal structure and armor can be swapped. It's an entirely different beast, and unless the summoner was getting quirks the likes never before seen in the 75-100% range, it cannot suddenly turn its meager number of weapons into more weapons.

I do not think anyone wants omnis 100% unlocked. However, the amount of leeway non-omnis have by comparison often far outweighs the benefits of stacking omnipods in Clan mechs. Remember that Clan mechs don't have 100% flexibility in what weapons they stick where. They are still limited in that they need an omnipod for that specific arm or torso that can take the hardpoints that the pilot wants.

A little bit of wiggle room is all that is needed in a couple of them as far as weight. Internal structure is as good an option as any one solitary thing to unlock, as it both frees up tonnage AND limits critical space. It provides a direct pro-con.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 July 2016 - 07:32 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gorgo7, on 20 July 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Yes great idea! PGI should remove FF or Endo from all clan mechs that sport both.
This would go along way to balancing the clans to each other as well as the the IS. We should also allow all IS mechs to use Clan weapons as "New tech". This would counter the imbalance that the clan has with their superior XL engines.
How about we do the above BEFORE toughening up the rest of the Clan arsenal by giving them all maximum structural bonuses.
Worst idea ever.

If at this Time you Still think the Clan has Perfact Supiriority then perhaps you need to Play abit more,
Other than the SCR/TBR, most Clan Tech which has Been balanced to be on Par with IS Tech,

Many IS weapon Systems are Considered Better,
IS ACs are Usually Considered Better unless Clan Mechs Boat them(only DWF/KDK)
IS Lasers have less Range and damage, but make up for it with much less Heat, and shorter Duration,
Missiles IS Volley will do more damage, hit more reliably, and less prone to AMS, but Clan LRMs are Lighter,
and after all of these Things Is usually have Weapon / Structure Quirks to help them out much more,

the only Thing Clan has that Seems to be Tipping the Scale is C-XL Engines,


but back to the Topic at hand,
this isnt a IS Vs Clan Topic, this is a OmniMech vs BattleMech Topic,
how can OmniTech Restrictions be relaxed to Allow Balance, with out going over Board,

i dont think unlocking Endo will Suddenly Mean all OmniMechs get Everything Unlocked,
also remember OmniMechs have Swap-able HardPoints, but BattleMechs Have HardPoint Inflation,

[Bishop Steiner]

Gorgo7, on 20 July 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Yes great idea! PGI should remove FF or Endo from all clan mechs that sport both.
This would go along way to balancing the clans to each other as well as the the IS. We should also allow all IS mechs to use Clan weapons as "New tech". This would counter the imbalance that the clan has with their superior XL engines.
How about we do the above BEFORE toughening up the rest of the Clan arsenal by giving them all maximum structural bonuses.
Worst ideas ever.

FTFY

And I agree all your posted ideas truly are terrible.

[Kin3ticX]

Here is how you fix the summoner.



remember kids, the summoner prime has 3 hardpoints because the book told PGI to make it that way


none of the other omnipods add much energy because the books alt cfgs happened to have very little energy


the mech has low podspace because the book told PGI thats how it is

Edited by Kin3ticX, 20 July 2016 - 08:28 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kin3ticX, on 20 July 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

Here is how you fix the summoner.



remember kids, the summoner prime has 3 hardpoints because the book told PGI to make it that way


none of the other omnipods add much energy because the books alt cfgs happened to have very little energy


the mech has low podspace because the book told PGI thats how it is

and with the tonnage freed up from Endo? It would actually be able to use those 3 hardpoints. I make it work Stock... problem is, after 400 dmg, I'd left with just an ERPPC. And that's while carrying stock armor. Summoner actually spreads damage rather well.With doubled ammo load? Those 3 weapons or similar loads would work. Not meta, but well.

Biggest reason I am against using ammo quirks is I want versatility for the SMN, not being pigeonholed into 1-2 builds.

[Kin3ticX]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 July 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

and with the tonnage freed up from Endo? It would actually be able to use those 3 hardpoints. I make it work Stock... problem is, after 400 dmg, I'd left with just an ERPPC. And that's while carrying stock armor. Summoner actually spreads damage rather well.With doubled ammo load? Those 3 weapons or similar loads would work. Not meta, but well.

Biggest reason I am against using ammo quirks is I want versatility for the SMN, not being pigeonholed into 1-2 builds.

They removed the flamer from the adder and then panicked

Edited by Kin3ticX, 20 July 2016 - 08:51 PM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I can't say we should let Omnimechs like Summoner have "unlocked" structure to freely choose between standard and ES.

What they should have is the type of structure/armor permanently changed, but still locked.

For 'Mechs like Summoner, should retain FF armor and have structure changed to ES.

For Executioner, should have FF armor swapped for ES structure. (Shouldn't have both.)

Bishop Steiner, on 20 July 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Biggest reason I am against using ammo quirks is I want versatility for the SMN, not being pigeonholed into 1-2 builds.

Also, Quirks have demonstrable power creep and slippery slope effects.

[Razorfish]

I don’t know if your idea is the answer. But I would be OK with it. It doesn’t sound OPed and it would make some of the under played mechs used more frequently.

So tired of seeing Mad Cats.

[Bishop Steiner]

Razorfish, on 20 July 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

I don’t know if your idea is the answer. But I would be OK with it. It doesn’t sound OPed and it would make some of the under played mechs used more frequently.

So tired of seeing Mad Cats.

Which is the point. The top tier either already have it, or benefit little from it. Most of the lower tier do not. Would make balance a lot easier, too

[Kin3ticX]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 July 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

Which is the point. The top tier either already have it, or benefit little from it. Most of the lower tier do not. Would make balance a lot easier, too

BUT IF YOU BREAK THAT CONTRUCTION RULE THEN YOU BREAK ANOTHER AND ANOTHER AND ANOTHER

/Launches into match using a 4xUAC10 Kodiak

[Gorgo7]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

Firstly, a preface.

I, am a TT and Lore guy. I like my stock builds, stock history, etc. I loather boating/alpha strike metas, especially when done at the expense of the flavour of the game universe. There are plenty of other generic mech shooters for making generic mech builds with.

TL;DR - Endo as an option, with fixed criticals per chassis, would make a lot of lower tier Clan Mechs more competitive, without needing freak level quirks. And at the same time, literally doesn't benefit any of the "Rich" high tier Omnis, because the ones that CAN use it, already have it anyhow.

Bishop,

FTFY (would you agree that is a rude comment?)

So here we are...a preface about how lore and stock are all flavour and it is loathsome to mess with it.
Then, we are asked to believe that ALL that would happen would be the lower tier Clan Omnis' would be better balanced against better, higher tiered Clan mechs.
*celebration ensues*
Again, the fact that lore is being thrown out the window is OK and it is. Flavour is being thrown out the window too and it is.
Balance is being thrown out the window and that is not OK.
You are literally asking for a complete balance swing away from parity between the IS and Clans to one where the only parity to be found is between the Clans who don't fight each other.

What are you thinking?

I own Summoners, I run Summoners. Clearly, they are not the best mechs in the Clan arsenal. Nor are they the worst either. If they were buffed in the fashion you are suggesting I too would be pleased!
Alas! If this were to come to pass, ALL Clan Omni mechs would be allowed to follow suit.

Do you not agree?

I cannot overlook the fact that you are the most prolific poster in the forums and as such have a following.
As someone with a following acting responsibly where the game is concerned is important.
This is a nice pet topic you have. Treat it as such.

Edited by Gorgo7, 24 July 2016 - 06:57 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Balance is being thrown out the window and that is not OK.

You are literally asking for a complete balance swing away from parity between the IS and Clans to one where the only parity to be found is between the Clans who don't fight each other.

You make an interesting statement, Gorgo. Balance and the state of it is worthy of discussion. Right now, the game is in perhaps the closest state of balance ever, between Clan and IS. Right now, most comp teams tend to favor IS mechs, slightly, for general use, but the balance state is very close.

However, that competitive balance state is done comparing the best of both sides, not the underperformers. This change? This would not impact the best of the best. It would only help the worst and the mediocre. Ergo, it doesn't actually impact the balance state from a competitive standpoint, aside from giving the Clans a wider pool of options.

I'd argue that this is something both tech lines need. This is not something that I view as a "Clan vs IS" thing. This is a general game balance thing.

The game needs to increase the viability of the options it presents. Unlocking the ability to modify internal structure type is one way to equalize a lot of Clan underperformers, but it doesn't create power creep in the practical sense of the big picture because it doesn't raise the bar for the top performing platforms. Not even an inch. (Edit: the one exception is the Hellbringer, which would end up directly competing with the EBJ for firepower potential, plus ECM.) If only there was an equally as simple way to do the same for the IS options. I suspect in the case of the IS, certain specific mechs, such as the Vindicator, would probably need direct hardpoint inflation to rise above the level of junk and into the realm of viable options.

Blocking the spread of viable options, regardless of your favoured tech line, is counter productive to the improvement of the game as a whole.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 July 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[Gorgo7]

Pariah,
Thank you for a thoughtful answer.

Pariah Devalis, on 24 July 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

However, that competitive balance state is done comparing the best of both sides, not the underperformers. This change? This would not impact the best of the best. It would only help the worst and the mediocre. Ergo, it doesn't actually impact the balance state from a competitive standpoint, aside from giving the Clans a wider pool of options.

I'd argue that this is something both tech lines need. This is not something that I view as a "Clan vs IS" thing. This is a general game balance thing.

The game needs to increase the viability of the options it presents. Unlocking the ability to modify internal structure type is one way to equalize a lot of Clan underperformers, but it doesn't create power creep in the practical sense of the big picture because it doesn't raise the bar for the top performing platforms. Not even an inch. (Edit: the one exception is the Hellbringer, which would end up directly competing with the EBJ for firepower potential, plus ECM.) If only there was an equally as simple way to do the same for the IS options. I suspect in the case of the IS, certain specific mechs, such as the Vindicator, would probably need direct hardpoint inflation to rise above the level of junk and into the realm of viable options.

Blocking the spread of viable options, regardless of your favoured tech line, is counter productive to the improvement of the game as a whole.

The competitive state would be better looked at as a whole rather then at the top flight mechs.
While it is easy to say that there are a few from both sides that are "the best" the fact is that not everyone runs "the best". In any Pug match (which is the bread and butter of this game) the variety is wide. Ergo balance. Should the under-performers of one side or the other be buffed then balance flies out the window. Suddenly, all pug games are Clan matches. All IS vs Clan FW becomes lopsided except for the heavily committed IS teams who gut it out until exhaustion sets in. Then it becomes an exercise in farming.
Excellence is laudable in business and relationships and competitive sports. In giant stompy robots where balance has been more or less achieved massive changes to one group and not the other is destabilizing` and should be shunned, as you point out above.
To open up Endo and Ferro for all Omni mechs requires a balancing change to the IS side.
Perhaps superior IS weaponry? IS ER lasers of all sorts? Snub nosed PPC's? Medium missiles? Better performing DHS?
The howls of outrage that would come from the Clans would shatter the forum if that were to happen.
Balance needs to be very carefully tweaked. Not body slammed in favour of one side or the other.
I cannot agree that improving the under-performing Clan mechs (by Clan metrics) is in anyway a step forward for the game

Edited by Gorgo7, 24 July 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Balance is being thrown out the window and that is not OK.
You are literally asking for a complete balance swing away from parity between the IS and Clans to one where the only parity to be found is between the Clans who don't fight each other.

How? Specifically, how would this make clans stronger?

Making weak mechs stronger doesn't impact faction balance, unless those weak mechs become stronger than the existing strong mechs.

Specifically, now, HOW does this make clans stronger as a faction? Having more good mech choices just means, as an IS player, you'd fight a larger variety of mechs in Faction Warfare, but it doesn't mean that those mechs are stronger.

Right now, you're not fighting against Summoners or such in FW, because they're objectively poor in comparison to other options.

Do you contend that the Summoner with Endosteel will be better than a Timberwolf?

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

To open up Endo and Ferro for all Omni mechs requires a balancing change to the IS side.
Perhaps superior IS weaponry? IS ER lasers of all sorts? Snub nosed PPC's? Medium missiles? Better performing DHS?

Oh, see, these things are different.

Opening up Endo (optionally and Ferro) for Omnimechs only benefits poor Omnimechs.

Improving IS weaponry improves ALL IS mechs, including the top mechs.

However, I do agree: Improving the poor omnimechs should happen alongside improving the poor IS mechs, which is done via quirks.

Yes, poor IS mechs should ALSO be improved via quirks (or some other means which only impacts specific mechs)

---

You have to compare balance via the stronger mechs, and ignore the weak ones, because in any situation where people really care about winning, they're bringing more strong mechs.

Weak mechs matter, but they matter in that they need to be buffed - or, alternatively, the stronger mechs should be nerfed - also a possibility.

However, you cannot rely on sides featuring an even spread of weak and strong mechs, so no, that does not lead to balance.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Wintersdark, on 24 July 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

How? Specifically, how would this make clans stronger?

Making weak mechs stronger doesn't impact faction balance, unless those weak mechs become stronger than the existing strong mechs.

Specifically, now, HOW does this make clans stronger as a faction? Having more good mech choices just means, as an IS player, you'd fight a larger variety of mechs in Faction Warfare, but it doesn't mean that those mechs are stronger.

Right now, you're not fighting against Summoners or such in FW, because they're objectively poor in comparison to other options.

Do you contend that the Summoner with Endosteel will be better than a Timberwolf?



Oh, see, these things are different.

Opening up Endo (optionally and Ferro) for Omnimechs only benefits poor Omnimechs.

Improving IS weaponry improves ALL IS mechs, including the top mechs.

However, I do agree: Improving the poor omnimechs should happen alongside improving the poor IS mechs, which is done via quirks.

Yes, poor IS mechs should ALSO be improved via quirks (or some other means which only impacts specific mechs)

---

You have to compare balance via the stronger mechs, and ignore the weak ones, because in any situation where people really care about winning, they're bringing more strong mechs.

Weak mechs matter, but they matter in that they need to be buffed - or, alternatively, the stronger mechs should be nerfed - also a possibility.

However, you cannot rely on sides featuring an even spread of weak and strong mechs, so no, that does not lead to balance.

Exactly this, if we are going and helping subpar mechs and making them a more viable options then you not only improve the fun factor of the game (which sells mechs and keeps the lights on for PGI) it also means that we aren't taking the Summoner and making it able to do quad UAC10 or whatever, we are simply making it an option. The idea of giving endo to a number of sub-par mechs and hard point inflation to some mechs that really are pigeon toed into awkward builds to be relevant in even the meekest of fashions. Would we have to adjust possibly some IS weapon systems? Probably, same with clan ones, that is the nature of adjusting the game and balancing it. Yes IS should get their ER lasers and clan ER's should be balanced against those.

We should also consider adding the master construction rule of omni's can add and remove JJ's as they please, which would help deal with some mechs that have issues with too much fixed equipment, the Viper and Shadow Cat spring to mind. This would also give further flexibility to other omni mechs giving them more options which I would figure is a good thing, sure they can take JJ's but, of course that is at the cost of tonnage, plenty of people would just put 1JJ on so they could quick turn, but, others would take more so they could re-position better, or remove them from mechs where they are just too many things already eating up tonnage.

As it was said, Stormcrow and Timber Wolf are the gold standard for clan mechs, it is due to their tonnage % that is free pod space for equipment, allowing adjustment of JJ's and endo (in cases with a mech with lots of hardpoints they have ferro replaced with endo instead) thrown on them. I want to see more mechs running around, I want to see more mechs in the competitive seen. Hell, unlock single heatsinks on omni's so when we eventually get to IS omni's the first wave and many memorable IS Omni's aren't stuck with Single Heatsinks thus future proofing the game a smidgen.

[Gorgo7]

Winter,

Allowing Omnis to pick and choose their upgrades and whether they may remove JJ's (which is another thing entirely) is a bad idea.
To say that buffing the weaker Omnis doesn't impact anything is short sighted.
Basically your argument is predicated on every Clans man piloting a Timberwolf or Stormcrow and no other mechs.
This is not true.
The bread and butter of MWO is Pug matches.
Do you see nothing but Stormcrows and Timby's being piloted by players? No, you do not. you see a wide variety including lesser mechs like the Summoner.
People buy them for whatever reason, they look cool, they are new and naive, they are filling out their collection, they are deep into lore.
Not everyone pilots top tier stuff. If you were to buff them to top tier levels all Clan gear in matches would be top tier. This would make a huge difference in all types of game play. Everyone would switch to the Omnis' for just this advantage. It is a feature of Omni's that they may not change internal structure yet the argument up and down this thread is that they should be allowed to, because it would make them more fashionable.
Fashionable...
Why not allow Clan omni's to change out their engine size while were at it? IS mechs to use Clan Xl engines?
It is the same argument as letting Omni's play with their inner structure. If you want to change your internal structure run IS mechs. If Clan engine size is your thing run IIC models. If altering your weapons type and config (and to a lesser extent JJ) play omni's.
If all that is really cared about is a favorite Summoner don't disguise it as a "Solution" to under-powered mechs.
Clearly it is not one.
If you must, buff the darn Summoner. Don't break the game doing it.

Edited by Gorgo7, 24 July 2016 - 10:44 AM.

[cazidin]

What about unlocking ES and FF on specific underperforming Clan Omnimechs only?

[Wintersdark]

Gorgo7, on 24 July 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

Winter,

Allowing Omnis to pick and choose their upgrades and whether they may remove JJ's (which is another thing entirely) is a bad idea.
To say that buffing the weaker Omnis doesn't impact anything is short sighted.
Basically your argument is predicated on every Clans man piloting a Timberwolf or Stormcrow and no other mechs.
This is not true.

No, people also pilot (of the Clan Omni's) Ebon Jaguars, and a few others... which also feature optimal upgrades.

Quote

The bread and butter of MWO is Pug matches.

Here I have to ask you to be more clear, because this is very important.

The bread and butter of MWO is quick play matches, sure. But they don't play into this discussion at all.

PUG faction play matches, though? No... No, they're not "the bread and butter" of PGI, and to be completely honest mechs used have so little impact in Faction Play PUG matches they're not worth discussing. PUG faction play matches are decided wholly on which team organizes better; that matters so much more than mechs chosen that it's not even funny. I'd take a team of 48 Vindicators against 48 random PUG Timberwolves any day.

Basically, you can't "balance" the game around the hope that equal numbers of players on each team will choose to use terribad mechs; that's ridiculous.

If you're talking about quick play, that too is wholly random. People will use good mechs and bad ones, and even if the "average" power level line is higher for Clans there (again: I maintain poor IS mechs absolutely need increased quirks - I note that you miss this in your post) it won't impact match balance because the matches aren't Clan vs. IS. There, faction is irrelevant, you just have "mechs". If people care about performance, they've got top tier mechs in both factions to choose from. If they don't care about performance, they don't care about performance.

Quote

Do you see nothing but Stormcrows and Timby's being piloted by players? No, you do not. you see a wide variety including lesser mechs like the Summoner.
People buy them for whatever reason, they look cool, they are new and naive, they are filling out their collection, they are deep into lore.
Not everyone pilots top tier stuff. If you were to buff them to top tier levels all Clan gear in matches would be top tier. This would make a huge difference in all types of game play. Everyone would switch to the Omnis' for just this advantage.

I object. You can't have your cake and eat it too: People are either using what's best, or they're using what they love. People who pilot what they love will continue to do so regardless.

Swapping ES/FF won't make top tier clan mechs better, it will only make weak Clan mechs better. Moreso, it won't make weak Clan mechs suddenly Top Tier Clan mechs - the best Clan mechs will remain exactly as they are right now.

This "advantage" isn't one you switch to Omni's for. But, if you're talking about switching, you're talking about people choosing mechs for performance. In that case, all that matters is resultant builds. Customization is nice, but ultimately how customizable something is doesn't make it better or worse on it's own - something not customizable at all could be wholly better if it just happened to have the right combination of hardpoints/tonnage available. If the mech can be competitive, it'll be used. If it can't, it won't.

But again.... POOR IS MECHS SHOULD BE QUIRKED TO IMPROVE THEM TOO. Nobody is aiming for Clam Superiority here.

Quote

It is a feature of Omni's that they may not change internal structure yet the argument up and down this thread is that they should be allowed to, because it would make them more fashionable.

Fashionable...
Why not allow Clan omni's to change out their engine size while were at it? IS mechs to use Clan Xl engines?
It is the same argument as letting Omni's play with their inner structure. If you want to change your internal structure run IS mechs. If Clan engine size is your thing run IIC models. If altering your weapons type and config (and to a lesser extent JJ) play omni's.
If all that is really cared about is a favorite Summoner don't disguise it as a "Solution" to under-powered mechs.
Clearly it is not one.
If you must, buff the darn Summoner. Don't break the game doing it.

Oh? Really? Is this the angle you want to take?

The Summoner is an example here; there are lots of poor Clam mechs, and almost every case is due to this build limitation.

IS mechs shouldn't be able to change internal structure or armor type either. Don't make on like allowing Clan mechs to change ES/FF is going to break the game - all it's doing is improving bad mechs. Battlemechs are flatly less customizable than Omnimechs in lore. I'm not asking for that, though, because that's just dumb. Then we'd have a lot of arbitrarily bad IS mechs too.

Because that's your argument here: That you want BOTH FACTIONS to have poor mechs and good mechs. That's just silly. You can't balance around the mere hope that both teams take a comparable number of good and bad mechs, because then when they don't battles are imbalanced simply because one team took more poor mechs. BOTH FACTIONS should have much better internal balance. That's the only way you can get reliably good external balance.

We need to have both factions having reasonably balanced mechs, both within their own faction and faction vs. faction. That's not even debatable, really - for the game to work well, all mechs should be reasonably viable choices.

The alternative is quirking the crap out of the bad Clan mechs AND bad IS mechs. Either way results in the same end (more balanced mechs internally and externally) except that also results in even more quirks. That doesn't really work out well. If there was a good non-quirk way to help the poor IS mechs, I'd be all for that too. But I can't think of one, nor have I seen any good suggestions for one.

But there IS a good non-quirk way to help poor Clan mechs without breaking FP balance, without overpowering the good Clan mechs. So it's a damn good way to go.




From the start, locked ES and FF where a terrible idea, because they don't do a good job of balancing mechs, they merely arbitrarily decide which mechs are good and which are poor.