653 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

/signed.

Seriously, this needs to happen. Locked ES/FF isn't a real balancing mechanic, because it doesn't serve to boost the poor mechs or curtail the strong ones, its just an arbitrary random nerf to certain mwchs whether they needed it or not.

People often say they feel a cost should be exacted for doing this, a take for the give, so to speak. That's not the case here, though - unlocking ES/FF as per the OP only buffs the already basically unusably bad mechs. You don't need to nerf something just because you buffed something that was bad to start with.

Until Clan mechs are more closely balanced with each other, IS players are going to continue fighting swarms of TBR's and SCR's. I'm pretty sure they'd like tobsee some variety as much as Clan players would to like to have more variety.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 08 January 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

/signed.

Seriously, this needs to happen. Locked ES/FF isn't a real balancing mechanic, because it doesn't serve to boost the poor mechs or curtail the strong ones, its just an arbitrary random nerf to certain mwchs whether they needed it or not.

People often say they feel a cost should be exacted for doing this, a take for the give, so to speak. That's not the case here, though - unlocking ES/FF as per the OP only buffs the already basically unusably bad mechs. You don't need to nerf something just because you buffed something that was bad to start with.

Until Clan mechs are more closely balanced with each other, IS players are going to continue fighting swarms of TBR's and SCR's. I'm pretty sure they'd like tobsee some variety as much as Clan players would to like to have more variety.

Well, the only unlikely thing to change is the greater use of the Summoner over the Timberwolf due to JJs... it would more likely require the Timberwolf being nerfed drastically (in the minds of the crazies anyways) similar to the previous VIctor nerfs (with red all over the quirk sheet).

Edited by Deathlike, 08 January 2015 - 02:51 PM.

[Kain Demos]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Well, the only unlikely thing to change is the greater use of the Summoner over the Timberwolf due to JJs... it would more likely require the Timberwolf being nerfed drastically (in the minds of the crazies anyways) similar to the previous VIctor nerfs (with red all over the quirk sheet).

The 'mech will always be popular as the face of the franchise since '95 and Victoresque quirks are completely unnecessary because he 'mech isn't OP in the least.

With Endo I'm sure we'd at least see SOME Summoners in CW. You could just barely run 3 with room left over for a Kit Fox.

[Vanguard836]

Personally I don't have an issue of keeping the locked equipement/internals in place if the mech already has it, just allowing the option to switch to endo and/or FF if they do not but I get the impression this was already mentioned.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Well, the only unlikely thing to change is the greater use of the Summoner over the Timberwolf due to JJs... it would more likely require the Timberwolf being nerfed drastically (in the minds of the crazies anyways) similar to the previous VIctor nerfs (with red all over the quirk sheet).

Sadly, that is what most seem to equate "nerfs" with.
For me, I'd say something simple, like reducing it's accel/decel by 10-15% and or reducing it's twist speed again by 10-15%, when combined with the quirks to the lesser mechs, would close the gap enough that one could run the other non ECM heavies without feeling you are handicapping the team.

For the Stormcrow, it's again, a fast hunter... so slightly reduce it's "nimbleness", and make it decelerate/turn a bit slower, and again, reduce it's twist speed a bit. Again, one doesn't have to neuter the things. Even with minor nerfs like that, they would still be top tier, just not as egregiously so.

[J0anna]

I really like this idea, but I suspect PGI will not even consider it. In reality it doesn't change balance all that much. The Nova, Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Summoner, and Gargoyle will benefit. The Dire Wolf rarely runs out of weight with it's minute 300 engine. The Warhawk runs out of space far more than weight with it's torso full of HS. And lets face it this does NOTHING for any light mech as they all have ES or the true tier 6 mech, the Ice Feces.

[Kain Demos]

Ok, now you lost me with your calls to nerf 'mechs that don't need it. If that is the cost of getting Endo unlocked, **** that.

[Dagorlad13]

As much as I think that clan mechs are over-nerfed, I really don't want to see this happen as it will further distance MWO from Battletech canon. All that really needs to be done to fix clan mechs is to reduce the punitive heat penalties that the clan weapons have (on top of ghost heat).

[Bishop Steiner]

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Ok, now you lost me with your calls to nerf 'mechs that don't need it. If that is the cost of getting Endo unlocked, **** that.

If you really believe the SC and TW aren't heads and shoulders above every other mech in the game, I don't know what to tell you. Because they demonstrably are.

And it's this all or nothing attitude on both sides of the debate that keep things from happening. Even with the locked Jjs (guess what, I almost never used the S torsos anyhow!) I can get 1000 pt matches in the TW in my sleep.

[Deathlike]

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

The 'mech will always be popular as the face of the franchise since '95 and Victoresque quirks are completely unnecessary because he 'mech isn't OP in the least.

I'm pretty sure popularity wasn't the reason why less people fielded the Victor when it had massive negative quirks (its undoing came when Hoverjets™ were introduced).

The Timberwolf excels far above everything else in its category or weight class (well, it's not a Dragon or Quickdraw in terms of top speed). Name something comparable that doesn't immediately suffer from IS XL durability. Good luck with that.

Quote

With Endo I'm sure we'd at least see SOME Summoners in CW. You could just barely run 3 with room left over for a Kit Fox.

Summoners are durable platforms... but they are not quite the firing platforms like the Timberwolf. Name a build that the Timberwolf would not do better in... (and I can only think of one or two in a relatively small niche way).

Edited by Deathlike, 08 January 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

IronClaws, on 08 January 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

As much as I think that clan mechs are over-nerfed, I really don't want to see this happen as it will further distance MWO from Battletech canon. All that really needs to be done to fix clan mechs is to reduce the punitive heat penalties that the clan weapons have (on top of ghost heat).

I wish this were true. Even when the Clans launched, and heat was not near the issue, the Summoner, Nova, etc were massively weaker than the rest. Pinpoint aim vs doubled armor has made many Mech ineffective, heat or not, unless your plan is to simply make all Clan Mech slaservomit, which is certainly not a very palatable option, IMO.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

I wish this were true. Even when the Clans launched, and heat was not near the issue, the Summoner, Nova, etc were massively weaker than the rest. Pinpoint aim vs doubled armor has made many Mech ineffective, heat or not, unless your plan is to simply make all Clan Mech slaservomit, which is certainly not a very palatable option, IMO.

I don't think you can't avoid that until "slower" Clan mechs are introduced that have lots of podspace. I'm talking about the 64.8kph (non-speed tweaked) heavies that exist.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 January 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure popularity wasn't the reason why less people fielded the Victor when it had massive negative quirks (its undoing came when Hoverjets™ were introduced).

The Timberwolf excels far above everything else in its category or weight class (well, it's not a Dragon or Quickdraw in terms of top speed). Name something comparable that doesn't immediately suffer from IS XL durability. Good luck with that.




Summoners are durable platforms... but they are not quite the firing platforms like the Timberwolf. Name a build that the Timberwolf would not do better in... (and I can only think of one or two in a relatively small niche way).

It's not so much the build, but role/playstyle. For me, the mobility/agility of the Summoner over a TW is HUGE. It's simply not having effective firepower when it's time to shoot that I find the issue. The TW is not near the jumper, or skirmisher, overall....until it's time to actually shoot something, lol.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

I don't think you can't avoid that until "slower" Clan mechs are introduced that have lots of podspace. I'm talking about the 64.8kph (non-speed tweaked) heavies that exist.

I think endo would do a lot to help that, TBH. Some mechs like the Nova are meant to be laser vomit. But you know what 3.5 tons and 4 tons, respectively do for the Summoner/Gargoyle?

​I run both in either Prime or close to it builds, which are actually pretty effective. But with energy, the Gargoyle gets hot unless you make it into a Clan Charger with small lasers out it's butt. 4 DHS helps there, a lot. But 4 tons also allows ammo for those ballistics or missiles. For the Summoner? Again, while the lack of hardpoints hurts, the inability to mount and effectively use larger weapons due to ammo constraints, is a gain, huge. simply having 2 more tons of ammo for mt LB-X? Massive.

[Kain Demos]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

If you really believe the SC and TW aren't heads and shoulders above every other mech in the game, I don't know what to tell you. Because they demonstrably are.

And it's this all or nothing attitude on both sides of the debate that keep things from happening. Even with the locked Jjs (guess what, I almost never used the S torsos anyhow!) I can get 1000 pt matches in the TW in my sleep.

I'm done with nerfs, period. IS 'mechs got some quirks that borderline on "god mode" and people are STILL calling for nerfs to clan 'mechs? Enough will never be enough for some people I guess.

I know I would never use a 'mech that got quirked into the ground Victor style.

Edited by Kain Thul, 08 January 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

I'm done with nerfs, period. IS 'mechs got some quirks that borderline on "god mode" and people are STILL calling for nerfs to clan 'mechs? Enough will never be enough for some people I guess.

Considering I am also calling for nerfs on those mechs? YES:

And considering even with your "god mode quirks" only the Thunderbolt comes close to the TW? And no medium is on par with the Stormcrow, even so?

And yes, I am on the forefront of getting the Thunderbolts toned down.

I run Clan and IS. I have no agenda for one faction vs the other.

[Kain Demos]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Considering I am also calling for nerfs on those mechs? YES:

And considering even with your "god mode quirks" only the Thunderbolt comes close to the TW? And no medium is on par with the Stormcrow, even so?

And yes, I am on the forefront of getting the Thunderbolts toned down.

I run Clan and IS. I have no agenda for one faction vs the other.

It doesn't seem like it. This isn't the first time I've seen you calling for Timberwolf nerfs.

They can leave Thunderbolts as-is for all I care. I take extreme pleasure taking out the fad-of-the-month builds.

[Dagorlad13]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

I wish this were true. Even when the Clans launched, and heat was not near the issue, the Summoner, Nova, etc were massively weaker than the rest. Pinpoint aim vs doubled armor has made many Mech ineffective, heat or not, unless your plan is to simply make all Clan Mech slaservomit, which is certainly not a very palatable option, IMO.

The solution is to reduce clan weapon heat across the board and then add negative heat quirks only to the truely OP builds.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kain Thul, on 08 January 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

It doesn't seem like it. This isn't the first time I've seen you calling for Timberwolf nerfs.

They can leave Thunderbolts as-is for all I care. I take extreme pleasure taking out the fad-of-the-month builds.

And I have always called for minor nerfs. But like most people, I must assume you see the world thru a filter...things that you agree with, or don't affect you, get overlooked, things you don't like become magnified.

I happen to be all over all the posts about the Thunderbolts for instance, though in many case I was using my Clan Acct at the time.

IronClaws, on 08 January 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

The solution is to reduce clan weapon heat across the board and then add negative heat quirks only to the truely OP builds.

and again, unless we turn all the clan mech s into laservomit, that accomplishes what? Make no mistake, I definitely think pulse lasers in particular are too dang hot, but clan balance issues go a heck of a lot deeper than JUST heat.

Again, that does nothing to put the Summoner or Nova in the same ballpark as the TW or SC.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 January 2015 - 03:22 PM.

[J0anna]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

If you really believe the SC and TW aren't heads and shoulders above every other mech in the game, I don't know what to tell you. Because they demonstrably are.

And it's this all or nothing attitude on both sides of the debate that keep things from happening. Even with the locked Jjs (guess what, I almost never used the S torsos anyhow!) I can get 1000 pt matches in the TW in my sleep.

However, until we have viable alternatives, I will never agree with ANY nerf to either the TW or the SC. Like it or not, the smallest Clan mech that can go one of one with a firestarter and hope to come out on top (given two equal opponents) is the stormcrow. Nerf this and what, you need a Mad Dog to effectively fight a firestarter. It's bad enough you need an extra 25 tons of clan mech to compete, do we really need to make it 30 tons?

Clan lights are far too slow and most have far less firepower than a firestarter, The Ice Feces can keep up with it (almost), but it's anemic firepower forbids actually killing anything. The Nova could kill it if close, but no firestarter would stand there and allow it, it will simply use it's speed and/or put a pebble between itself and the Nova (which OC the nova can't possible shoot over unless it jumps and loses ALL cooling on it's energy build.....), so before you nerf the SC, we need some alternatives. Hell I'd rather install an instakill button in all IS mechs (i.e. target a clan mech, press f7 and it instantly blows up) before seeing any more clan nerfs.

However, this is all a fruitless conversation, PGI released it's plans for January and February and you'll note that Clan Quirks are nowhere in sight.

Edited by Moenrg, 08 January 2015 - 03:30 PM.