66 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Metafox, on 08 January 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

The attack mode could be a quick 4v4 1-mech-per-player match between attackers and defenders. The success and the impact of an attack could be based on the attackers' damage done divided by damage taken, so attackers would need to stay aggressive without getting reckless. After 5 minutes, heavily-armed dropships arrive on the defenders' side and begin a sweep across the map. The attackers would have 5 minutes to launch a quick attack on the defenders, then they'd need to retreat to their side to end the match. The defenders could also have several concealed damageable structures on their side which the attackers could farm for damage in case the defenders choose to turtle.

Part of the reason I suggest a 4x3 vs a 4x1 is it gives people more of a flow of combat- that is, matchups will not only be unexpected, but further reactions between attacker and defender will come from the conflict. On that initial garrison wave, did the attacker sweep in with lights to strike at vulnerable buildings, or try and break as many of the defenders under a wave of heavy and assault 'Mechs before going after the turrets and structures once they've reduced the enemy forces? A stealthy advance under ECM before pouncing on a flank with a trio of SRM-packing ambushers? Given success or destruction, what does the reaction make for choices for the next wave sent in?

When a resource raid is on, did the raiders send an assault to rip apart turrets and cover speedy snatch-and grabbers? A balanced but nimble lance of mediums? Or a mostly-offensive push with big guns while a single looter zips between broken-open points? Did the defenders guess properly in reacting to it, or did they send something too slow or too fragile to handle the attacker's hand? How will they adjust, or will they spend the 'Mechs they need most in bad mismatches?

4x1 gives no room for error or adjustment. 4x3 does without being as heinously massive as either a normal 12x1 or the CW 12x4.

[Feaad]

Use the current, smaller, Conquest maps. The 3 points in the middle can be the pick up points.

[N0MAD]

You know if you did this (i have no opinion on the subject) that it would doom the normal CW Q right?, there would be very few units left in the regular CW Q like what happened to the 12 man Q.
Just saying..

[MechaBattler]

I don't think they'll go for the 4 man drop. Because they want to keep the number of people per map maximized for server usage. I mean, I don't know if that's how it works, but that's the impression I got.

[wanderer]

MechaBattler, on 08 January 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

I don't think they'll go for the 4 man drop. Because they want to keep the number of people per map maximized for server usage. I mean, I don't know if that's how it works, but that's the impression I got.

If at the given rate of use there's significant server strain for CW, it'd never had sustained the rate of play they were hoping for to begin with. And the population of the game is virtually zero, rendering the entire point moot as MWO would be a hollow lie and doomed to collapse under it's own weight.

I prefer more optimism.

N0MAD, on 08 January 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

You know if you did this (i have no opinion on the subject) that it would doom the normal CW Q right?, there would be very few units left in the regular CW Q like what happened to the 12 man Q.
Just saying..

12-mans would still get higher rewards and flip planets at considerably more efficient rates. Let's do a bit of math here.

One raid has 5% of the influence of a single 12-man win in planetary control- so even taking into account 2 potentially successful raids per half of the time (given a very generous success rate of 5 minutes per raid + an even more generous 5 minutes between drops) a single 12-man match runs, you at best would have, assuming 12 people a mere 60% of the effect, being charitable and assuming they got two full raids in each and won both. It would, at best take 20 players, each getting four winning raids in within 30 minutes to produce an effect that would match the efforts of -twelve- winning once. And that assumes the 12-man took the full 30 minutes to win -once-. At best, each raiding group would get 60% of the loyalty points rewarded vs. a 12-man win and 80% of the C-bills- again, assuming they managed to speedrun through four raids in 30 minutes AND the 12-man took the full 30 minutes themselves.

Raids let smaller groups contribute to CW in a fashion the can manage and get rewards for it that they wouldn't get otherwise, including being able to do something successfully that a normal small group (or worse, PUG) would only get kicked in the teeth for in the current 12-man drop system. It does not mean that a 12-man doesn't get rewarded in a superior fashion for doing it bigger and harder, and won't kill off the 12-mans. Quite the opposite. I expect it will encourage more people to try their hand at CW, having fun, and wanting to do the bigger fights- and the higher CW population will in turn also serve to get more people to stay in factional fighting vs. reverting to the assault/conquest/skirmish same-olds.

Nothing attracts a crowd, like a crowd.

[MechaBattler]

wanderer, on 08 January 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

If at the given rate of use there's significant server strain for CW, it'd never had sustained the rate of play they were hoping for to begin with. And the population of the game is virtually zero, rendering the entire point moot as MWO would be a hollow lie and doomed to collapse under it's own weight.

I prefer more optimism.



12-mans would still get higher rewards and flip planets at considerably more efficient rates. Let's do a bit of math here.

One raid has 5% of the influence of a single 12-man win in planetary control- so even taking into account 2 potentially successful raids per half of the time (given a very generous success rate of 5 minutes per raid + an even more generous 5 minutes between drops) a single 12-man match runs, you at best would have, assuming 12 people a mere 60% of the effect, being charitable and assuming they got two full raids in each and won both. It would, at best take 20 players, each getting four winning raids in within 30 minutes to produce an effect that would match the efforts of -twelve- winning once. And that assumes the 12-man took the full 30 minutes to win -once-. At best, each raiding group would get 60% of the loyalty points rewarded vs. a 12-man win and 80% of the C-bills- again, assuming they managed to speedrun through four raids in 30 minutes AND the 12-man took the full 30 minutes themselves.

Raids let smaller groups contribute to CW in a fashion the can manage and get rewards for it that they wouldn't get otherwise, including being able to do something successfully that a normal small group (or worse, PUG) would only get kicked in the teeth for in the current 12-man drop system. It does not mean that a 12-man doesn't get rewarded in a superior fashion for doing it bigger and harder, and won't kill off the 12-mans. Quite the opposite. I expect it will encourage more people to try their hand at CW, having fun, and wanting to do the bigger fights- and the higher CW population will in turn also serve to get more people to stay in factional fighting vs. reverting to the assault/conquest/skirmish same-olds.

Nothing attracts a crowd, like a crowd.

I really don't think they're that desperate. MWO has been flamed and shat on for the longest time by it's own hardcore playerbase. Flat out burning hatred. Yet it persists. And CW is only in it's infancy. So I really don't think it's gonna collapse.

I'm not saying they wouldn't do 4-man game mode. Just that they seem inclined to have more people per match.

[Karl Marlow]

wanderer, on 08 January 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

*Invokes the word CW and then details a new game mode without tying it to CW*

Interesting idea.

What does it have to do with CW?

Edited by ThomasMarik, 08 January 2015 - 10:36 PM.

[Metafox]

wanderer, on 08 January 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

Part of the reason I suggest a 4x3 vs a 4x1 is it gives people more of a flow of combat- that is, matchups will not only be unexpected, but further reactions between attacker and defender will come from the conflict. On that initial garrison wave, did the attacker sweep in with lights to strike at vulnerable buildings, or try and break as many of the defenders under a wave of heavy and assault 'Mechs before going after the turrets and structures once they've reduced the enemy forces? A stealthy advance under ECM before pouncing on a flank with a trio of SRM-packing ambushers? Given success or destruction, what does the reaction make for choices for the next wave sent in?

4x1 gives no room for error or adjustment. 4x3 does without being as heinously massive as either a normal 12x1 or the CW 12x4.

You've got a good point there. My thinking was that this game mode could create quick, streamlined matches. By limiting players to one mech, the strategy would be dumbed down but things would be simpler for casual players. The 5 minute limit for the attack would keep the match quick and interesting. The defenders' dropships would give the attackers an actual incentive to call off the attack and retreat, as opposed to having the match end arbitrarily with a countdown timer.

All of that said, I'd be happy with anything similar to either game mode idea.

[TheAstroPub]

N0MAD, on 08 January 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

You know if you did this (i have no opinion on the subject) that it would doom the normal CW Q right?, there would be very few units left in the regular CW Q like what happened to the 12 man Q.
Just saying..

I don't think so, if the raid mode didn't allow you to put your name on the planet there would still be larger groups dropping to get their names on the worlds. Also small raids would help but to win worlds you need to fight real battles. If you made it so there was still required a certain number of actual matches to take a world people would still slug out in the 12 v 12 mode, especially those coordinated factions. By giving actual incentives to fight in the 12 man groups and join units you can prevent the larger queue from becoming a ghost town.

[Caustic Canid]

N0MAD, on 08 January 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

You know if you did this (i have no opinion on the subject) that it would doom the normal CW Q right?, there would be very few units left in the regular CW Q like what happened to the 12 man Q.
Just saying..

If the small queues and 12v12 were completely separate, then yes. But I think this idea would get more people looking to play CW in general. Plus, you could have a general queue that people could put themselves into, that would throw them into any available game type, giving the 12v12's more population to pull from.

[Sam Slade]

This is a fantastic idea... really fantastic.
Make it so that this needs to be done to open up for full invasion?

Edited by Sam Slade, 09 January 2015 - 01:56 AM.

[cRaZy8or5e]

I like the concepts here. I'm not a fan of 4v4 with 180 tons for a dropdeck but I do like the concept.

There needs to be something with less of an investment of time that could still have an effect on CW.

It would be nice if this could be more PuG friendly as well. I know that it's almost impossible for people in my unit to drop in CW together more than a few times a week (the majority of us are adults with families and jobs). Many don't even want to because of the amount of time invested vs the gameplay reward. Lets face it the gameplay is rough right now. Frustration abounds especially among PuGs.

I think the concept of raiding could be incorporated in a way that would be easier for the casual player and again require less of a time investment.

Edited by cRaZy8or5e, 09 January 2015 - 05:01 AM.

[Necromonger Commander]

In MW2 some are even scouting missions....problem with creating more queues is that diminishes pop for other queues. So you are saying if 12x12 fails they just revert to 8x8 and then 4x4?

Edited by Necromonger Commander, 09 January 2015 - 05:22 AM.

[Lily from animove]

How about a mode where you will get a tiral mech assigend and have to fight? Just randomly. may bring more diversity back. May be the mode newbies would prefer by not being in a more disadvantaged mech at all.

But yes a lot of your modes sound like fun, but then the issue is: will there be people left conquering planets?
We definately need more population since we would spread the few people we have.

[wanderer]

ThomasMarik, on 08 January 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Interesting idea.

What does it have to do with CW?

Community Warfare lacks a meaningful place for PUGs and lance-or-less sized groups, where large units are dominant and indeed pressure others out of the queue. Further, these 12-man queues are producing documented hour-plus wait times as a lack of sufficient players forces those dribs and drabs to either wait ridiculous amounts of time (at which point they go play something else) or glom together into ineffective PUG groups and get mismatched against units, suffer the results, and are negatively reinforced towards the idea of participating in CW further.

Introducing a proper 4-man queue and CW modes tailored around them will get players who have rejected CW in it's current form back into the system, provide new tactical concerns for large scale groups (hence making it more interesting for larger units as well), and by making a comfortable space for solo-to-lance groups to participate, grow a pool of players that are likely to contribute further to the size and number of larger units for 12-man queue as well.

Necromonger Commander, on 09 January 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

In MW2 some are even scouting missions....problem with creating more queues is that diminishes pop for other queues. So you are saying if 12x12 fails they just revert to 8x8 and then 4x4?

Not at all. I'm saying that a 4x queue actually takes population that is outright not welcome in and rejected by 12x12 and gives them someplace to play that includes them in CW. I also believe that in being included, this will actually act as a stepping-stone for people to go from raiding to forming/joining units for full-scale 12-man queue matches. We need more than the deep end of the pool to get people swimming.

Edited by wanderer, 09 January 2015 - 07:14 AM.

[wanderer]

Metafox, on 08 January 2015 - 11:21 PM, said:

You've got a good point there. My thinking was that this game mode could create quick, streamlined matches. By limiting players to one mech, the strategy would be dumbed down but things would be simpler for casual players. The 5 minute limit for the attack would keep the match quick and interesting. The defenders' dropships would give the attackers an actual incentive to call off the attack and retreat, as opposed to having the match end arbitrarily with a countdown timer.

I'm also worried that spamming 5 minute maps would, as was noted earlier, be overkill on PGIs server system. A system designed to handle 4x3 for 15 minute matches generates more matches than 12x4 as it stands, but an automatic 5-minute match would be a still more brutal pace of having to put instances up.

Lily from animove, on 09 January 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

How about a mode where you will get a tiral mech assigend and have to fight? Just randomly. may bring more diversity back. May be the mode newbies would prefer by not being in a more disadvantaged mech at all.

But yes a lot of your modes sound like fun, but then the issue is: will there be people left conquering planets?
We definately need more population since we would spread the few people we have.

IMHO, the true "newbie match" should be the non-CW queue: That is, assault/conquest/skirmish. It would introduce new players in an arena where losing doesn't lose a faction planets. Also, IMHO Trials are "trainers". Trainees shouldn't be trying to raid planets and lose millions of C-bills in giant robots.

Adding raiding certainly would have people conquering planets, as raids produce limited but eventual control shifts at a 20-1 ratio to 12-man wins. However, the unit conquest tag would only apply to whoever generated the most push with a 12-man queue, regardless of raiding- and that's another reason 12-mans would continue to exist. People want to leave their mark on the map.

[Mott]

I've been pushing PGI for a Raid mode since before CW launched.

I like much of what wanderer has suggested, my only bone of contention would be the limiting to any specific group sizes. Let anyone of any group size play where they want.

The choice should be either 4 mech dropship mode for epic battles, or 1 mech Raid mode for quick strike engagements. No muss, no fuss, easy to implement using existing game assets.
4 mech dropship mode games would still require X wins to take over/defend a planet. But Raids could also be counted towards the attack/defend of said planet, but only at a fraction of the weight... say 5 or 6 Raid wins required to make up the same points achieved through 1 dropship mode win.

[AeusDeif]

lol. only mechs with hand actuators should be able to cap resources. they'd finally be useful.

[DevlinCognito]

I like this idea, I've been thinking for awhile CW needs something .. more. To be honest I'd be happy with Invasion only being the first and last slots on each planet, the other 12 (15/29/128?) slots being normal conquest/skirmish games to represent the actual fighting for the planet while Invasion is saved for the Beachead/Final stand on each planet.

I like your idea though for behind enemy borders drops that can open up the next days Invasion targets or something similar. Making the middle games Conquest or Skirmish would also help bring some of the Public queue back to CW and not keep it such a grind playing the same 2 (SOON to be 3?) maps ad infiniteum.

[wanderer]

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I like much of what wanderer has suggested, my only bone of contention would be the limiting to any specific group sizes. Let anyone of any group size play where they want.

There's nothing stopping a smaller group from going into the 12-man queue with this- only the option for a CW mode that involves 4 players.

Quote

The choice should be either 4 mech dropship mode for epic battles, or 1 mech Raid mode for quick strike engagements. No muss, no fuss, easy to implement using existing game assets.
4 mech dropship mode games would still require X wins to take over/defend a planet. But Raids could also be counted towards the attack/defend of said planet, but only at a fraction of the weight... say 5 or 6 Raid wins required to make up the same points achieved through 1 dropship mode win.

At that point, raiding becomes a more efficient way of conquering a planet than 12-mans. Unacceptable- you have the same 12 players getting planetary control at an equal or better rate from 6 raids (especially as total 'Mech numbers drop- we already can kill 4 'Mechs in 3 minutes if you did 4x1) as they would running a single 12-man.

The 12-man attack/defense should always be the most effective way to take a planet, and by a significant margin.

Likewise, 1x12 still fails on the critical aspect of needing twelve players in the first place. 4x1 clogs the CW system with hordes of instances going so rapidly that 5 minute matches become the norm, which is why I suggested 4x3 and 15 minute matches instead. CW should never feel like the "instant action" matches. Even smaller groups should have that feeling of being part of a longer battle, rather than "Whelp, I got cored in the first 30 seconds. Guess I get to watch the other 11 derp around."

People should be bringing a drop deck to CW, being part of a match where they're making decisions that alter gameplay at multiple points based on what's happened in the match to date.

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lol. only mechs with hand actuators should be able to cap resources. they'd finally be useful.

I wouldn't complain, but a helluva lot of Clan players would be in trouble. Just think of the looting 'Mech as pointing their guns at the locals and going "This is a stickup! Put all the spare parts in the cargo net and nobody gets ventilated!"

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Making the middle games Conquest or Skirmish would also help bring some of the Public queue back to CW and not keep it such a grind playing the same 2 (SOON to be 3?) maps ad infiniteum.

Not really. Your pubbies would still be put into a queue vs the same large units that burned them before. There's a reason for the public solo vs. group queue, and this would plow headlong into the same issues as we saw in the public queue with the need for large groups to have one queue, and smaller groups/soloists another option.

Putting raids on the older maps with appropriate modifications will give CW the smaller-scale (but still "unit") matches it needs and give those small group and solo players a place to be that isn't "fodder".