69 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 January 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

and this upgrade is required to make the mech competitive then its not a choice,
you are Forced then to upgrade your Omni-mech or your just handicapping your self,
i feel unlocking this equipment is more the Spirit of what makes a Omni-Mech an Omni-Mech,
locked internals(Engine, Structure, Armor) but other wise free customizability,
its not about the rules its about what i feel is more like an Omni-Mech,

Yeah it isn't choice at all - of course you are right, but the same is also true for most IS Mechs. But i rather like a choice than get pushed around and be forced to a bun of weapons or something else to be usefull. Since this is the other likely way PGI had pushed lesser performing mechs into higher tiers.

and on a footnote: Since equipment comes with time mechs should be balanced by there variables instead of quirking them to be good, and than needs next rebalance wenn new equipment is available and so on. This would become a endless story of work for the programmers eating manpower, which could better be used in content.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 09 January 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Lightfoot, on 09 January 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

@OP.

Certainly Jump Jets should be removable because all it does is skew balance to affect only a few mechs. Also, MWO's jump jets have been too nerfed because of 3PV balancing. They are capped at such a very low jump height to block pop-tarting, that they no longer work as a high agility option. No one should be forced to equip them at this point.

Armor, Internals, minimum heatsinks seem to be part of the balancing of the Clan mechs, but it also skews balance to the mechs that have both Endo and FF unless the mech is given alot of hardpoints. One reason why the Summoner is total garbage because it happens to get hit by all the Clan Mechlab nerfs. Low number of hardpoints, 5 tons of jump-jets, no Endo Steel. That's not balance, it's imbalance.

well lets look at what Mechs would directly benefit from this, mostly Lights and JumpJet mechs,
as i list above unlocking equipment doesnt include C-DHS, as i feel they are an additional Balance factor,

=MistLynx=
with JJ and CAP,.......7.5FreeTons
without JJ and Cap...11.5FreeTons
the Builds the MLX could now run,
1ER-LL & 3SRM(16shots),(no-JJ/CAP)
1ER-LL & 2SRM(29shots) & ECM,(no-JJ/CAP)
2ER-LL & ECM, +2DHS,(no-JJ/CAP)
1LPL & 1ER-ML & ECM, +3DHS,(no-JJ/CAP)
1AC5(any)(105shots) & ECM,(no-JJ/CAP)
and many more combinations

=KitFox=
(because of S JJ unlocked)
the Builds the KFX could now run,
2AC2(Ultra)(150shots) & 1ER-ML & 2ER-SL & ECM,(no-JJ)
1AC10(any)(30shots) & 3ER-ML & ECM,(no-JJ)
1AC10(any)(30shots) & 3SPL & ECM,(no-JJ)
and many more combinations

=Adder=
with Flamer,.......16FreeTons(-1E)
without Flamer...16.5FreeTons(+1E)
the Builds the ADR could now run,
3ER-LL & +2MPL,(no-Flamer)
5MPL & +6DHS,(no-Flamer)
2LPL & 3ER-ML & CAP,(no-Flamer)
1ER-LL & 4SRM6(27shots),(no-Flamer)
3ER-ML & 2LRM15(39shots),(no-Flamer)
and many more combinations

=Nova=
with JJ,.......7.5FreeTons
without JJ...11.5FreeTons
the Builds the NVA could now run,
2AC2(any)(187shots) & 13ER-SL,(no-JJ)
4ER-LL & 4MG(3000Ammo),(no-JJ)
12ER-ML & +6DHS,(no-JJ)
6MPL & 6SPL,(no-JJ)
and many more combinations

=Summoner=
with JJ,.......22.5FreeTons
without JJ...27.5FreeTons
the Builds the SMN could now run,
2LPL & 2ER-ML & 1Guass(15shots),(no-JJ)
5SRM6(16Shots) & 1Guass(30shots),(no-JJ)
2Guass(17shots),(no-JJ)(high mounted!)
and many more combinations

=TimberWolf=
(because of S JJ unlocked)
4ER-LL & 4SRM6(23Shots),(no-JJ)
2Guass(7shots) & 4ER-SL,(no-JJ)
and many more combinations

as you can see it would help these mechs
the S versions mostly with fun/non-compatition builds,

[Pjwned]

I would rather see the locked equipment be made a bit more worthwhile possibly, e.g the Adder's flamer, but I'm not against a bit of help for the under-performing clan mechs.

However, the TBR-S specifically had its jumpjets locked to keep it more in line with (somewhat) comparable mechs like the Summoner, so changing this sort of thing around would either reverse that decision and make the TBR-S more flexible than it perhaps should be, or it would create a lame inconsistency in the rules, and while the latter would be rather undesirable I suppose there could be an argument to reverse the locked jumpjets on the TBR-S even if I might not agree with it entirely.

Edited by Pjwned, 10 January 2015 - 02:37 PM.

[Fate 6]

Can't open up the DHS on all mechs because it will just make balancing the better mechs that much harder. Some mechs, like the Gargoyle and Warhawk, have a ton of locked DHS and SOME of them should become unlocked. Or, just keep balancing through Quirks. With more radical and effective quirks, mechs like the Warhawk (gimme some ST armor for the love of god, and/or unlock my LT DHS), Gargoyle (gimme some more ammo or heat dissipation), Adder (Flame on!), and Nova (Actually flame on in your cockpit as your mech melts) would become more useful.

Unlocking JJs is a good step, as most of the JJ mechs (except the Timberwolf and Kitfox because they can choose the number) are mediocre.

[Andi Nagasia]

Pjwned, on 10 January 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

However, the TBR-S specifically had its jumpjets locked to keep it more in line with (somewhat) comparable mechs like the Summoner, so changing this sort of thing around would either reverse that decision and make the TBR-S more flexible than it perhaps should be, or it would create a lame inconsistency in the rules, and while the latter would be rather undesirable I suppose there could be an argument to reverse the locked jumpjets on the TBR-S even if I might not agree with it entirely.

Fate 6, on 10 January 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

Unlocking JJs is a good step, as most of the JJ mechs (except the Timberwolf and Kitfox because they can choose the number) are mediocre.

true but was this really a nerf? all it really did was take 4Tons away from S Missile builds,
and only mostly the LRM Boat builds, which arnt really use because they arnt competitive,
it only really stops fun joke builds that really arnt a problem as they arnt effective,

[Lightfoot]

I agree of course. Been saying the same since the Thor was delivered to me as a complete flop, balance-wise I mean. Looks pretty cool.

You could see the problem was that the Thor came with 5 tons of jump-jets that the other Clan mechs did not have and how PGI setup the Clan Mechlab as basically Closed. You don't need Mechlab to change Clan omnipods as these changes are done in the Field as needed. So the fixed jump-jets creates a flawed balance with the Closed Mechlab added to that restriction.

Would the Thor be much better with non-fixed jump-jets? Yes, as good as any Clan mech. Would it be OP'd? No, not enough hardpoints in it's omni-pods. It would become an average Heavy mech. Like the Loki, but with no ECM.

Most Clan Mechs with fixed jump-jets are rarely seen as well. They just do not compete.

So let's restore some balance to these high-priced Clan mechs and remove the fixed jump-jet restriction that only applies to just a few mechs.

PGI, your inaction on this obvious lack of balance has prompted me to stop buying Clan and Inner Sphere mech-paks since they are not guaranteed to work or be fixed. The Mechs do me no good just sitting in their mechbays month after month.

[Brody319]

They need new omnipods just as much as they need FF and Endo.

[KuroNyra]

Ace Selin, on 09 January 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

No to what OP said.

Quirk the body of the mech in question (not the Omni pods).

And basicly kill what are Omnimechs. Basicly Omnimechs.
Quircks are here to favorised a gameplay that suit a battlemech. Most of the time it follow the purpose of the mech in the lore.

Most Omnimech were designed to be jack of all trade, able to change there weapons for the missions they had. You could have a Summoner with a LRM 15 and a PPC changed for a SRM 6 and a LB-X20.


Put quircks to whole bodys, and you basicly kill the purpose of omnimechs in the first place.

[kapusta11]

I don't get it why people are so opposed to the idea of unlocking JJ's and DHSs? Superstar clan mechs are already optimised and won't benefit from the change much if at all. Hell, there are mechs better than even Timberwolf, that can carry 2x Gauss Rifles, a bunch of ERMLs, have JJs/ECM/both and still move at 71 kph so unlocking engines won't change much after their inevitable release.

And that's IS pilot speaking!

Edited by kapusta11, 11 January 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

so with the TBR-D ST, and the "Locked JJ Nerf" is mostly useless now,
can we please Unlock all Locked JJ, Flamers, and CAP?

it could really help,
MLXs, KFXs, ADRs, NVAs, SMNs,

[RAM]

Why not just unlock all equipment? Fixed Engines, Endo & Ferro is bad enough.


RAM
ELH

[Blue Shadow]

100% agree with the OP, unlocked JJs & equipment would be the best way to give weak clan mechs a boost, but more importantly give them some much needed options in the mech lab. I was thinking about making a thread about this topic but was going to suggest unlocking heat sinks, but OP changed my mind about that. And such changes can't come soon enough for my MLX it just feels like a wast of money right now.

[Andi Nagasia]

RAM, on 22 January 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

Why not just unlock all equipment? Fixed Engines, Endo & Ferro is bad enough.

im sorry i just cant agree with that,
mainly because i feel Endo, Ferro, and Locked DHS, are a main part of Clan Balance,
first Omni's shouldn't be able to change their Structure and Armor because they are Omni's,
second the Locked DHS take away some space to limit your placement selection,
both i feel help balance Clan Omni Mechs to Battle Mechs,

that said i can understand your position and can respect your opinion,
i just dont agree with unlocking everything, i dont think it is the right choice,

[Andi Nagasia]

Brody319, on 11 January 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

They need new omnipods just as much as they need FF and Endo.

i cant agree with unlocking FF and Endo,
as i feel its aganst how feel the Omni-Mech system works,
also in the case of the ADR and MLX it wouldnt help them,

[Mcgral18]

There's an argument to be made for engine changes for many mechs; of course a couple against as well.

Timby going down to a 300XL means 40 tons of guns. 'Crow going down means 28.5; what the Timby carries now while going the same 81/89 speed.


Nova with Endo could move to a 300XL (97/107) while losing a half ton, and gaining 4 (rather, only losing 3) crit slots due to internal heatsinks.

Koshi could jump up two engine ratings, from a 175 to a 225. It gains 4 crit slots from the engine heatsinks; gaining two TrueDubs at the same time. This would let it move 151/166 along with 4 tons of pod space remaining. Allow it to remove the AP, 5 tons. All hardwired equipment? 8 tons; more than it has now, while moving 40 KPh faster.


The bad mechs could certainly use it, but it will probably never happen. It would make selling a Wave III with fast mechs harder.

[blood4blood]

I'm wondering if these aren't just game balance issues, but actual game coding issues. It's been a long, long time since I did any programming stuff at all, but from a layman's view of mechlab, it looks like the engines are fixed not only in the CT, but also on the side torso omnipods, yeah? And endo and ferro affect the entire mech. So what would happen if someone modified various omnipods then tried to put it all together into a mech showing different engine sizes in the CT and ST's, some parts with endo, some without, some with ferro, some without? I'm guessing the mechlab just isn't set up to handle that, and that may be part of why these components are fixed. (It shouldn't be such an issue with JJ, though, since those go with a single omnipod already.)

[Andi Nagasia]

blood4blood, on 28 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

I'm wondering if these aren't just game balance issues, but actual game coding issues. It's been a long, long time since I did any programming stuff at all, but from a layman's view of mechlab, it looks like the engines are fixed not only in the CT, but also on the side torso omnipods, yeah? And endo and ferro affect the entire mech. So what would happen if someone modified various omnipods then tried to put it all together into a mech showing different engine sizes in the CT and ST's, some parts with endo, some without, some with ferro, some without? I'm guessing the mechlab just isn't set up to handle that, and that may be part of why these components are fixed. (It shouldn't be such an issue with JJ, though, since those go with a single omnipod already.)

its not much of a change coding wise,
im a programer by trade, even though i have no idea how MWO is scripted i dont think it would be too hard,
they have already set the JJ on the KFX-S and TBR-S to be locked and it was a minor patch,
so im assuming that its and internal switch that may be-able to be toggled as Upgrades are,

also it doesnt make much sense as to why a Battle Mech can remove them but an Omni Cant,
when an Omni Mech should beable to as per lore and other Omni Rules,

i can understand that its a balance thing, but currently the Omnis that have them Fixed are underpreforming,
MistLynx-Nova-Summoner, there are mechs with Variants that have JJs and i feel those perhaps should be locked,
as per balance, but when it comes to mechs that have them standard i feel they should be removable,

[Andi Nagasia]

with the latest Clan Quirk Pass i can Say the SMN still needs help,
and this could very well help and as an option it is Lore Friendly,

[EXO-Scorpion]

I agree and would also like to be able to RELOCATE Clan double heat sinks to the FEET for a tiny bit more extra cooling when my mech is going through WATER!!!

Edited by ExoScorpion650R, 24 March 2015 - 07:00 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Absolutely. PGI will never balance Clan tech if half have fixed standard internals and jump-jets and half don't. The fixed engines is okay because you get the benefit of the engine and build around it. The Summoner and the upcoming Gladiator will only ever work like the other Clan mechs with access to equipment changes in the Clan Mechlab.

These changes are canon if done in Mechlab which functions like a player Mech Factory in MechWarrior games. There is no Mechlab in Battle Tech. Only MechWarrior games.

As is the Gladiator will be the new Summoner and no Quirks will ever fix it.





.

Edited by Lightfoot, 24 March 2015 - 07:38 PM.