28 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

When the Clan Wave 2 Pack was announced, it didn't take long to figure out which mech in the pack was one everyone wanted. I had plenty of good memories of this mech in MW4 and MW2, so it didn't come as a surprise that most people would aim for it, just like the Timberwolf. Fortunately it didn't disappoint.. even with the initial "terrible" hitboxes.

I don't know what has ever come out of that "ECM brain trust" to address the issue, but for purposes of this post, this is not really about finding ways to fix it... but to acknowledge that it has too much influence over newbies, and all in a bad way.

1) "The Red Doritos" over the mechs are the first things you aren't taught in any built-in-game tutorial, and the use of the "R" button to target mechs. These are critical basic systems taught in MW2, MW3 (I think) and MW4. The fact that it hasn't been added into MWO is beyond appalling. Perhaps just watching a recording of the entire training session in one of the games would greatly help... but whatever I guess.

What ECM does are "hide" or obfuscate (confuse) players that rely on them. This hurts the new players the most as they don't quite understand the value of targeting. This is something every player has to learn before even figuring out what a "meta" is. While using your eyes is a key factor in not relying with such systems, it is best for the new player to understand how targeting affects everyone around him.

2) Missiles are the other weapon of consideration. Generally LRMs are not the primary weapons of the higher skilled teams, as direct fire is usually more productive. Still, the mechanism of which LRMs and Streaks rely upon requires a "lock"... which requires targeting AND holding your mouse over the intended target. The problem however is that ECM prevents this from occurring which requires additional hardware such as BAP to counter ECM or TAG to get a lock on the target.

LRMs require full attention for the player using them as not holding the lock makes the missiles miss. It helps to have complete LOS (Line of Sight) on the target. ECM reduces the effectiveness of the locking mechanism (which requires you to carry TAG on any legitimate missile boat) and failing to do so is a wasted effort... and also exposes one to more harm than anything else at longer ranges. So, ECM does make the something like the stock Champion Stalker-3F difficult to use initially... all of which goes unexplained of course.

While I've simplified the jist of the problematic ECM artifacts, players at higher levels primarily use this to their advantage in trying to hide the damage, allowing better self-protection and group movement in a more secretive and generally uncontested approach. There's a lot of value for this device, and for the Hellbringer to be currently the only Heavy mech to wield it tends to mess with arguments of balance. I personally think it needs to be reworked probably in a MW4 kind of way, but as I've said before... this is not the scope of the post... it's only to inform people how powerful it is when used properly. ECM does not give you magical immunity if you drive face first into the enemy w/o a plan.

Outside of ECM, there's actually nothing ridiculous about this mech. It's strangely not imbalanced. It does have actual weaknesses, and we can talk about the odd quirks that were added to the mech... because I honestly don't know who decided the random quirk design... but it's like it was picked from a game of darts on random ideas...

So, I know you love the magic number of 3 and here we go again in the sections:

1) Omnipods - Who quirked these and why does he have a job?
2) Field Report - It's freaking hot hot hot!
3) The Future - There are no reinforcements?!?!

1) Omnipods - If you like (the) Jesus (box), you are flying high!

This is the second mech that has a really nifty head hardpoint. Unlike the Stormcrow, we have options! Let's look at them...

Head:
Hellbringer-Prime - 1AMS
Hellbringer-A - 1E
Hellbringer-B - +20% Armor Strength

I'm not much of an AMS guy, but if you're relying on ECM, why should you bother with AMS? The A's energy hardpoint is the keeper. However, I don't even know where to begin on the B's quirks. I don't remember EVER getting headshotted, so the value of that empty slot is worthless. At least the Stormcrow made a whole lot of sense for the tradeoff (though, I don't recall being headshotted in that mech ever either). For now, let "Dr. Evil" handle things.


Left Torso:
Hellbringer-Prime - 3E, 1ECM
Hellbringer-A - 1M, +10 Torso Twist Yaw
Hellbringer-B - 1E, +10 Torso Twist Yaw

I was kinda expecting the Prime to have some negative quirks, similar to the Kitfox-C's Right Arm. I was a bit happy, but when you look at the alternatives, the other options REALLY suck. I would be half expecting like a -15% cooldown reduction and +10% torso twist boost to justify NOT using the 3E hardpoint (let alone the ECM bonus). Go figure.

Note that if you go the 1E route, you will have at most a total of 5E... which isn't very appealing.


Right Torso:
Hellbringer-Prime - 2B, 1M
Hellbringer-A - 2B, 1M
Hellbringer-B - 2M, +5 Torso Twist Yaw

There's not much variety here unfortunately. However, the great news is that the ballistic mounted hardpoints are VERY HIGH like the lasers (but not cockpit level though), which allows for a decent ballistic mount to go with all the energy you will very likely use. The B's dual missile hardpoint is really nice, but making it a total LRM boat is a bad idea/gamble as the mech at best can field like 3 missile slots total... ALL in the torsos. So, go figure on that.

If you're going full laservomit, you'll probably want to get the B torso for the extra torso twist.


Left Arm:
Hellbringer-Prime - 1E, +10% Armor Strength
Hellbringer-A - 2E
Hellbringer-B - 1B +10% Armor Strength

The choices are pretty simple, so there's not much to say other than the arms are kinda low and that at most you can put in 3E or 2B in any sort of arm combination.

Right Arm:
Hellbringer-Prime - 1E
Hellbringer-A - 1B
Hellbringer-B - 1B

At this point, you're wondering why these omnipods matter. They honestly though. If you're going to go ballistic, you are better off using the Right Torso to accomplish it, unless you're stuffing a lot of MGs on the mech.

Your options honestly aren't really exciting, but it can build whatever it can WHILE allowing DHS in the feet. However, not having Ferro or Endo is kind of a drag, but most people should be able to manage... and let's discuss how it is on the field...


2) Field Report - Torso Twisting is important? NO WAI!!!11!

It should be very apparent that the Left Torso (or the Left Side) is where everything on consequence is kept. Once that is removed, well, the mech is generally crippled outside of the head laser. I guess that's why people like their head weapons... However, losing the right side of the mech has grave consequences. Think of it in terms of the Hunchback-4P. You might lose just 1 weapon if you lose the left side... but you will surely overheat quickly enough once you alpha all the energy you have on the left side.

Fortunately, the arms are GREAT for shielding.. even if you lose as much as 3 CERMEDs on them. It is always worth protecting yourself with your arms before worrying about more serious damage to the torsos.

While hitboxes on the early going was spotty... the whole point of the mech is based around ECM. You shouldn't be trying to brawl unless you are forced to... you should be relocating and finding the best way to help your team, or just finding a good position to fire from. It's arguably a perfect package since it is a heavy and it can carry a lot... so putting that to good use is important. The only error for using the mech is honestly trying to go "full brawl" on it. It's just a bad idea and should honestly be best left to the Atlas D-DC because it has the actual firepower to do it.

So could this mech possibly be better in the future?

3) The Future - Not Even Jesus Can Add More

There's no data to suggest more omnipods, as honestly.. it's not needed. Even adding Endo as an option would help it out, but I guess someone has to answer his prayer right? For now, it is what it is... and personally speaking, it was Tier 1 once they fixed the hitboxes. I'm sure others will disagree, but at 65 tons, it's doing what many of us knew it could do, and then some.

While I believe the Thunderbolt is "intended" to be its rival in the current set of quirks+balance changes (the 9S comes to mind), there is still no IS heavy to carry it. It is difficult to know when an IS ECM heavy come about, let alone whether an existing chassis will be changed to have it (and not be another balance nightmare)... so for now... the significance of this mech tends to hinge on how ECM is balanced. For some of us, it is the Magic Jesus Box™ (Mcgral18 coined this a while back, and deserves credit for that AFAIK) and as such needs to be reworked at some point.

Who'd have thought a 1.5 ton + 2 crit (1 ton + 1 crit for Clans) item should have been this powerful? Apparently PGI did... and the Raven-3L still suffers the leg hitbox ("cancer") growth to this day.

Before I end this post, there needs to be a few quirks added to the non-ECM Left Torsos on the mech to make the mech more useful. I'm not sure if the numbers are too high (possibly the cooldown), but it's hard to justify not bringing the ECM torso. Also, someone honestly needs to rework the "20% head buff" for the empty hardpoint. Even a 10% torso twist pitch buff with a 5 point torso twist pitch increase or something would be more useful than that the current idea.

Until next time...

[Mcgral18]

I thought FupDup coined the Magic Jesus Box?

I enjoyed it, and repeated it. I think all I'm responsible for is the WubShee term...that's not even a guarantee, since someone probably did it before.



I'd be tempted to call the Loki Tier 2, although I suppose if you add the God tier, it could be considered 1.

[Lily from animove]

Honestly, loki and MDD are in the correct place of balance, this si vere the normal clan emchs level should be. they feel nice to play without the taste of being weak or too strong. they hsould be the mark the other clanners should be balanced to.

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 January 2015 - 02:12 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

I'd like to point out that if you go for ECM, you mentioned that you could only get 5E; that's not correct.

Head = 1E
ECM Mount = 3E
two arms, one has 2 E hardpoints, the other has one = 3E

Total 7E hardpoints. Plus two missiles leads to the potential of 2SRM6, 7 CERML, ECM, a couple tones of ammo, and DHS where they can fit.

Edited by Aphoticus, 09 January 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Mechteric]

Its very simple to fix ECM, simply remove Angel ECM ability from the GECM and make an Angel ECM alternative to GECM that can be installed in the ECM hardpoint as a choice.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 09 January 2015 - 07:09 AM.

[Metus regem]

Aphoticus, on 09 January 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

I'd like to point out that if you go for ECM, you mentioned that you could only get 5E; that's not correct.

Head = 1E
ECM Mount = 3E
two arms, one has 2 E hardpoints, the other has one = 3E

Total 7E hardpoints. Plus two missiles leads to the potential of 2SRM6, 7 CERML, ECM, a couple tones of ammo, and DHS where they can fit.

It is also worth noting that the Hellbringer is vastly under armoured in the stock configuration, to get the unit to what I consider a playable level of armour, one is often left with enough tonnage for dual cLPL, 3 cERML, ECM and a TC Mk. 3/4 and a couple of extra Heat sinks.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

I thought FupDup coined the Magic Jesus Box?
..

Nope, I'm not smarts enough for that. It came from a long ways back on the forum. Maybe even before the "recent" ECM nerfs (i.e. the ECM hardpoint addition)? It'll require some searching to get to the bottom of.

[ztac]

So to sum it up ... IS get an assault ECM ... clans get a heavy ECM ... some ECM players don't do what they are supposed to be doing with it!

[Deathlike]

Aphoticus, on 09 January 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

I'd like to point out that if you go for ECM, you mentioned that you could only get 5E; that's not correct.

Head = 1E
ECM Mount = 3E
two arms, one has 2 E hardpoints, the other has one = 3E

Total 7E hardpoints. Plus two missiles leads to the potential of 2SRM6, 7 CERML, ECM, a couple tones of ammo, and DHS where they can fit.

I'm unsure if I made it clear... but I was pretty sure I said that 5E is the most you could do WITHOUT the ECM left torso, which is why I suggested buffs for both non-ECM left torsos.

[Ultimax]

I'm curious why you guys think the HBR is T2 and not T1, in particular as I've seen you guys (IIRC Deathlike, McGral, etc) refer to Stormcrow as T1.


The HBR has multiple sniping mounts, it has more effective tonnage than the Storm Crow (as the HBR comes with 3 built in DHS), it has ECM, and the arms are much better for shielding than the Storm Crows (which do almost nothing) - and it hill humps better than both the TBR and the SCR.

It can run laser vomit, laser sniper (2 to 4 CERLLAS), wubs, lasers+SRMs, gauss vomit.


5SS is T1 (in it's niche), HBR can meet & exceed the same build - but is somehow not T1?




I'd be interested in your reasoning.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 January 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[kapusta11]

Ultimatum X, on 09 January 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

I'm curious why you guys think the HBR is T2 and not T1, in particular as I've seen you guys (Deathlike, McGral, etc) refer to Stormcrow as T1.


The HBR has multiple sniping mounts, it has more effective tonnage than the Storm Crow (as the HBR comes with 3 built in DHS), it has ECM, and the arms are much better for shielding than the Storm Crows (which do almost nothing) - and it hill humps better than both the TBR and the SCR.

It can run laser vomit, laser sniper (2 to 4 CERLLAS), wubs, lasers+SRMs, gauss vomit.


5SS is T1 (in it's niche), HBR can meet & exceed the same build - but is somehow not T1?




I'd be interested in your reasoning.

Shoot LT and it's over?

[Ultimax]

kapusta11, on 09 January 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Shoot LT and it's over?

Protect LT with Shield side like a boss?


Asymmetric builds are often the top meta builds for a reason, and the HBR can have a weapon in it's head.

If you really felt you needed it you could put a backup in the RA (I just strip the armor personally).

[Metus regem]

I would put the Hellbringer in T1, with a decent pilot at the sticks, and when I say decent, I mean understanding how to work with a team. As I find that the Hellbringer is a better force multiplier than full on combat unit. As I often drop with guys in CGBI, I am often running in ECM support for units like our Dire Wolves or Timber Wolves, making the team better, often at the expense of my personal performance, but that is putting the team first, the correct and important thing to do.

Edited by Metus regem, 09 January 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 09 January 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

I'm curious why you guys think the HBR is T2 and not T1, in particular as I've seen you guys (IIRC Deathlike, McGral, etc) refer to Stormcrow as T1.

Usually the comparisons are made AGAINST mechs within its own weight class AND tonnage, and the Stormcrow vs any 55-ton IS mech with mediocre (non-specialized) builds on a 1v1 basis is better.

The Hellbringer w/o ECM is OK, but I would argue is less durable than a pre-quirked Thunderbolt straight up (but more durable than a Catapult and Jagermech). ECM provides the "additional armor" (not physically, but for the opfor trying to target you, it doesn't help them at all). The Hellbringer isn't really a brawler like the Jagermech with an "AC40" (2 AC20s) build or any Thunderbolt that supplements its long range firepower with a ton of medium lasers. The Hellbringer is a poor brawler and is best at ranging everything just like every Clan laservomit build. So, it is what it is.

Quote

The HBR has multiple sniping mounts, it has more effective tonnage than the Storm Crow (as the HBR comes with 3 built in DHS), it has ECM, and the arms are much better for shielding than the Storm Crows (which do almost nothing) - and it hill humps better than both the TBR and the SCR.

When facing off against better pilots that use the Thunderbolt's high Right Torso mounts properly/optimally (think hills on Boreal, including the gate ramps on both sides), the Hellbringer is not the proper counter for them especially since laser vomit is suboptimal vs trading ERPPC fire from Thunderbolts. You don't win those battles. The best you could hope for is seeing those Thunderbolts on Sulfur and see them trying to trade blows on the same level field.

Quote

It can run laser vomit, laser sniper (2 to 4 CERLLAS), wubs, lasers+SRMs, gauss vomit.

It does run virtually whatever you need. Although you could run ERPPCs on it though, the mounted high torso hardpoints IMO are not as high as the head's mounted hardpoint, thus competing with Thunderbolts that use a hill or ramp to fire from a difficult proposition to win against.

Quote

5SS is T1 (in it's niche), HBR can meet & exceed the same build - but is somehow not T1?

I'd be interested in your reasoning.

Well, I've considered it Tier 1... generally the others don't feel that way. It's really amounts to how you are playing it though. I've seen too many "Hellbringer was easy to core" reports (prior to the hitbox fix) and I was personally feasting on everyone despite that. So, I still think people are generally just "using them wrong" and trying to do stuff that they are not optimal for.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 January 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 09 January 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

I'm curious why you guys think the HBR is T2 and not T1, in particular as I've seen you guys (IIRC Deathlike, McGral, etc) refer to Stormcrow as T1.


The HBR has multiple sniping mounts, it has more effective tonnage than the Storm Crow (as the HBR comes with 3 built in DHS), it has ECM, and the arms are much better for shielding than the Storm Crows (which do almost nothing) - and it hill humps better than both the TBR and the SCR.

It can run laser vomit, laser sniper (2 to 4 CERLLAS), wubs, lasers+SRMs, gauss vomit.


5SS is T1 (in it's niche), HBR can meet & exceed the same build - but is somehow not T1?




I'd be interested in your reasoning.

Because the God tier mechs; it can't really compare to the TimberGod in the heavy class. Lacks Endo, which thankfully isn't a huge deal, but admittedly would improve it.

Hardpoints are lower than the cockpit, aside from the head. Still a good position, one of the better.

As I said, if there was a God Tier, this would probably be 1. If this had Endo, 3 more tons of guns. That would also bridge the gap.

The 65 ton Ebon Jaguar, which mounts both Ferro and Endo with the same 3 DHS has 28.5 tons of guns. A net 1 ton less than the TimberGod. It could sword and board dual Gauss...kind of. 8 E hardpoints available, along with a couple missile and ballistic. It doesn't have a Jesus Box, but could mount a couple more fearsome loadouts than the Loki. Loki has one ballistic and lasers, or just lasers. Going only lasers gets hot due to 120-150% heat.

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 January 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 09 January 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

The 65 ton Ebon Jaguar, which mounts both Ferro and Endo with the same 3 DHS has 28.5 tons of guns. A net 1 ton less than the TimberGod. It could sword and board dual Gauss...kind of. 8 E hardpoints available, along with a couple missile and ballistic.

That day will come soon...

Although, the arms tend to be low to the ground IIRC, so it kinda might get "King Crab" status.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 09 January 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

That day will come soon...

Although, the arms tend to be low to the ground IIRC, so it kinda might get "King Crab" status.

Dem torso mounts, tho

Gauss in the RT, 3 ERMLs in the left. 4 ERSLs in the arms? Maybe some ERLLs in the left torso and ERSLs in the arms. It could be like that unreleased Timby-A LT.

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 January 2015 - 11:02 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 09 January 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Dem torso mounts, tho

Gauss in the RT, 3 ERMLs in the left. 4 ERSLs in the arms? Maybe some ERLLs in the left torso and ERSLs in the arms. It could be like that unreleased Timby-A LT.

I was briefly looking over the Cauldron Born variants when you mentioned it earlier. There's a lot of potential there, despite some flaws/deficiencies.

Speaking of Timberwolves... I think I have a solution to the Timberwolf-A's LT omnipod, but I suspect the man who shall not be named has a favorite color of red.

[Koniving]

Far as that brain trust, it didn't really get far. Russ never got back to them on it, and any solution that could be found to ECM would require mandatory rebalancing of LRMs -- something that was clearly stated would not be done, as Russ wanted an ECM exclusive solution that affects nothing else (an impossible order).

[Milocinia]

Nowt wrong with the simple 5x C-ERML build HBR-PRIME It's not as weak as you might think if you have a steady enough aim and all those heatsinks mean you can vomit away to your heart's content.

33 matches logged, average of 460 damage (15,196 total) and a k/d ratio of 3.19 (51/16). My 2nd favourite mech.

Edited by Kyocera, 09 January 2015 - 11:48 AM.