83 replies to this topic

[Praehotec8]

I know there have been a ton of threads about LRMs in the past, but after playing some last night, the cLRM minimum range really got to irritating me.

Technically in MWO cLRMs have no minimum range, but with the exponential drop off of damage under 180m makes them effectively useless at dealing damage unless one is 170m+ from an opponent. In otherwords, cLRMs de facto have the same minimum range as IS LRMs while suffering from chain fire (which is both blessing and curse).

Honestly, would it be so terrible to allow cLRMs to do half - or even full - damage at any range under 180m? Even if the clustered IS LRMs had no min. range they would still be much worse at range than comparable ballistics, and cLRMs are quite susceptible to AMS and damage spread can be considerable given their streaming. LRMs have significant drawbacks, including weight (albeit less than IS LRMs), need for ammo and risk of ammo explosions, yet remain worse than ballistic weapons, even clan UACs.

I think allowing cLRMs to truly have no minimum range would help make LRMs a more effective weapon system and would not make them overpowered.

[BourbonFaucet]

Ok. Now what advantage would you give the IS LRM's to balance out that full lack of minimum range?

...

Nothing?

Nothnxbai

[Vanguard836]

As someone who's played clan mechs a lot, that would be too powerful. An LRM 20 point blank would be like an LBX 20 for a fraction of the weight and that's for a single LRM.

Edited by Vanguard836, 09 January 2015 - 05:17 PM.

[Antagonist]

Vanguard836, on 09 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

As someone who's played clan mechs a lot, that would be too powerful. An LRM 20 point blank would be like an LBX 20 for a fraction of the weight and that's for a single LRM.

Just that LBX 20s aren't susceptible to AMS...

Also, an LBX fired center mass at ~100m will hit with all pellets. An LRM will in all probability not hit with all missiles, especially if your target is moving perpendicular to you fast.

Need I mention their reload time (5s vs. 4s), the fact a C-LRM(20) takes time to empty its tubes and the fact their projectile speed is way lower than an AC's in addition to the fact LBX 20s get one more shot per ton?

[terrycloth]

IS LRM minimum range is 200. I've watched them firing at 185 or 190 and doing no damage.

Let's see... streaks do 12 damage for 3 tons, CLRMs would do 15 damage for 3 tons, with a faster recharge rate and the option of firing at long range. Yes, there is in fact a direct-fire weapon worse than LRMs (for clans).

[Antagonist]

terrycloth, on 09 January 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

IS LRM minimum range is 200. I've watched them firing at 185 or 190 and doing no damage.

Let's see... streaks do 12 damage for 3 tons, CLRMs would do 15 damage for 3 tons, with a faster recharge rate and the option of firing at long range. Yes, there is in fact a direct-fire weapon worse than LRMs (for clans).

This is actually incorrect. S-SRM6 does 12 damage to its intended target.

C-LRM15 does 12 paper damage for the same weight, only that some of its missiles will miss.

EDIT: This is assuming both targets stand still. Of course the SSRMs will plow into the ground if the target evades the proper way.

Short-ranged LRMs won't arc and would thus be susceptible to their target's evasive maneuvers.

That said, whenever the timeline advances, we'll see Streak LRMs. Postponed is not abandoned.

Edited by Antagonist, 09 January 2015 - 05:37 PM.

[Vanguard836]

Antagonist, on 09 January 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

Just that LBX 20s aren't susceptible to AMS...

Also, an LBX fired center mass at ~100m will hit with all pellets. An LRM will in all probability not hit with all missiles, especially if your target is moving perpendicular to you fast.

Need I mention their reload time (5s vs. 4s), the fact a C-LRM(20) takes time to empty its tubes and the fact their projectile speed is way lower than an AC's in addition to the fact LBX 20s get one more shot per ton?

I wrote "like" not "is". At point blank, basicaly on the mech, AMS can't react much.

terrycloth, on 09 January 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

IS LRM minimum range is 200. I've watched them firing at 185 or 190 and doing no damage.

Let's see... streaks do 12 damage for 3 tons, CLRMs would do 15 damage for 3 tons, with a faster recharge rate and the option of firing at long range. Yes, there is in fact a direct-fire weapon worse than LRMs (for clans).

180M actually.

[Adamasartus]

Personally, I think that the Innner Sphere have the advantage with LRM boating. It's a niche where the Clans don't really compete. So why not give Clan LRMs a different niche? Reduce or remove the minimum range, reduce the maximum range, increase the missile speed and get rid of the firing arc so that Clan LRMs are direct fire, rather than arcing upwards. So in return for being lighter than IS launchers and not being limited by tube size Clan LRMs gain better direct fire and short range capabilities.

This solidifies IS LRMs as the kings of indirect fire, and gives Clan LRMs their own niche.

[Antagonist]

Adamasartus, on 09 January 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

Personally, I think that the Innner Sphere have the advantage with LRM boating. It's a niche where the Clans don't really compete. So why not give Clan LRMs a different niche? Reduce or remove the minimum range, reduce the maximum range, increase the missile speed and get rid of the firing arc so that Clan LRMs are direct fire, rather than arcing upwards. So in return for being lighter than IS launchers and not being limited by tube size Clan LRMs gain better direct fire and short range capabilities.

This solidifies IS LRMs as the kings of indirect fire, and gives Clan LRMs their own niche.

That would be Streak LRMs, ca. 3057.

[Adamasartus]

Antagonist, on 09 January 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

That would be Streak LRMs, ca. 3057.

I thought it sounded a bit more like MRMs, to be honest, but that works too.

[Vanguard319]

Vanguard836, on 09 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

As someone who's played clan mechs a lot, that would be too powerful. An LRM 20 point blank would be like an LBX 20 for a fraction of the weight and that's for a single LRM.

There is a solution to that: You allow CLRMs their full damage, but you make them terribly inaccurate under 180m to simulate the missiles not having a full lock on the target. you may get lucky and make a full hit, but more likely only a small handful of missiles will actually hit, while the remainder fail to lock on and are unable to track the target. Even in TT, there was never a 100% guarantee that all of your missiles would hit, which is why you had to roll for clusters. (Streak SRMS were the exception to the rule.)

[Kaspirikay]

gimmie dat streak lrm 20s

[Gigastrike]

How about full damage at 0m, but can't lock without line of sight? Clans were never fond of indirect fire.

Also should mention that I haven't thought out the balancing yet.

[Ace Selin]

I've killed (cored, damaged) enemies at 120m-170m with Clan LRMs so they still work well under 180m.

No Clan LRMS are perfectly fine as they are and the damage modifier under 180m does NOT need to be changed.

(The funniest being me in a Kitfox with only LRMs facing off against a LRM Kintaro, where I moved in well under 180m where the IS LRMs couldn't damage me and I killed him with my Clan LRMs which still work well under that range.)

[Wolfwood592]

I would much rather take a constant barrage to field than a one hit wonder.

IMO Clan LRMs are better on all fields. I have seen a Vulture dump an LRM 20 into an opposing mech and MAYBE miss 2-4 missles. Where as I have seen an LRM 15 OR 20 from IS miss at a minimum 5 every time like clock work bc its just a big "box" of missles.


Under 180 clan missles are horribly annoying because of the massive screen shake AND the fact that it can still damage.
THAT is there niche, there needs to be no other additions to it.

[terrycloth]

No, IS is 200. People keep saying 180 so I tested it. It's 200.

[Antagonist]

Gigastrike, on 09 January 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

How about full damage at 0m, but can't lock without line of sight? Clans were never fond of indirect fire.

Also should mention that I haven't thought out the balancing yet.

Streak LRMs.

Wait for it...

Circa 3057.

[Kilo 40]

terrycloth, on 09 January 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

No, IS is 200. People keep saying 180 so I tested it. It's 200.

I tested it too. It's 180, not 200.

Also clan lrm range is fine as it is.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Techorse, on 09 January 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

Ok. Now what advantage would you give the IS LRM's to balance out that full lack of minimum range?

...

Nothing?

Nothnxbai

Fight path (arc, and turning speed/radius can be altered so they are not agile close quarters)

LRM's "spray" from the launcher and fly into a cluster after 180m. Such as they have a first stage ignition to push them out of the launcher and away from the mech, then second stage kicks in where the lrms get a huge boost in speed and move into their corrected flight path, but kicking up a lot of dust as they do so.
Otherwise they would be dealing damage to the launcher.

bunch of neat things you could do and still have them do full damage from 0-180.
You dont need to buff is lrms. This is different technology. I would expect clan missiles to operate different, rather than just come from the launcher in a stream.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 09 January 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[Praehotec8]

Vanguard836, on 09 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

As someone who's played clan mechs a lot, that would be too powerful. An LRM 20 point blank would be like an LBX 20 for a fraction of the weight and that's for a single LRM.

A someone who's also played a lot (I enjoy missile mechs) of cLRMs and IS LRMs, I say it wouldn't be. Sure, it weighs less, but would also be less accurate. As otherwise stated, at less than 100m, all pellets from an LBX will hit the same general region, missiles would not. I imagine you would get about half the damage where you want it, with greater cooldown and slower projectile velocity. In other words, likely relatively in balance in terms of effectiveness per ton (same total damage, more spread, less weight).

@ Ace Selin: Sure, if you can keep an enemy there, fine. Below 100m - worthless. If you play with a team that can keep you safe, you're fine, but essentially the practical difference between 120-180m is quite small, leaving only marginal benefit compared to IS LRMs. Where cLRMs have lost all effectiveness is at close range encounter, where they should still do damage. Counter the benefit with the increased potential for friendly fire when using them. For the record, I would be fine with IS LRMs having no min. range either.

@Wolfwood: Yes, there is screenshake, but experienced players will either A. close in and ignore the screenshake that does no damage, or B. get out of fire quickly. Plus, it is debatable if the screenshake SHOULD be as distracting as it is.

@terrycloth: Then you've discovered a bug and should report it to support. IS listed LRM minimum range is 180m.

By the number of replies, I feel I have hit a nerve. I think it's clear to everyone that LRMs have issues. So many of you who jumped in here disagree with me, but who here feels LRMs as is are a truly fearsome weapon system? How many competitive groups run large amounts of LRMs? Seriously, without testing this, how can one know it would be overpowered? At current, LRMs do great against "bads" while they are terrible against any player who knows what they are doing. I am at best a modest pilot, yet I RARELY get killed by LRMs. Good players - pretty much never. I think this would give LRMs at least some improvement, and if doing so means removing cLRM indirect fire, then so be it.