192 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Gorgo7, on 22 January 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

I must answer this statement. There was not a cease fire between Liao and Davion during the Christmas break.
This is a foul lie perpetuated by those who would continue to vilify Liao.
To make a statement of such cruelty without a shred of evidence is beyond the pale.
I have followed your posts and attacked you upon occasion but this is weak.
Lets see some evidence even if only anecdotal. Say...who neg the ceasefire and who agreed to it? Units or names?
I witnessed the ceasefire with Marik and was in a shooting match with them that brought about the formality and dispersion of knowledge concerning the current ceasefire. Proof can be found in the Liao forums.
Where is this agreement you speak of? There is nothing on the Liao forums. I am not interested in parsing the Davion forums.
We are dying and yet it is our fault apparently.
Well, the victors write history.

"What is good for France, is good for the world, but what is good for the world is not necessarily good for France."
-Charles deGaule

Never said it's your fault that you're dying. From my experience, in a conflict someone usually is. However, when we approached the entire Inner Sphere about a cease fire and we got an almost unanimous okay. Liao was the only one that actually queued up in large numbers to invade our borders. Someone more knowledgeable than me can speak about the numbers and the dialogue up top on the command level. I'm just a grunt on the ground, and I queued up for the defense.

[MischiefSC]

Molossian Dog, on 22 January 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

You drop to defend Steiner from the Clans. It is no secret, no conspiracy. It is a well known fact.
If you have one less border you have less to do. => More Daves will drop to defend Steiner
If only to find a game at low intensity times if for no other reason.

I dont even need to suspect you of malicious intent. It is a mechanic.

Frankly speaking I don´t know what you guys want. I suspect you of something you already admitted several times in this very thread.

You are all outraged and keep calling it a paranoid conspiracy theory.
*shrug* Whatevs, Dave.





No it is not.

It has these pictures of foodstuffs in it.

We told you what we want. Repeatedly. In fact it's stated all over by Davion pilots since CW started. It's not some unified goal we voted on or was handed down by a grand council of UBER L33TZ; just in general we want to fight Dracs (want them to be a good fight though) and we want to have a Clan border to fight on of our own.

We drop on Steiner when nothing else is going on. We can see your borders too you know - it's all dead save the Clan fronts and we drop there pugging sometimes. We drop on FRR and Kurita sometimes too, depending on where the action is. If Davion pilots dropping on the Steiner/Clan border actually resulted in Steiner pilots shifting swiftly and efficiently to attack on other fronts.... it'd be a completely different game. Love Steiner, love the peeps there, they're great allies and we appreciate the alliance we've got with them. I'm sure you say the same about Liao. How much time does Marik spend on the Kurita/CSJ border though? How much of that effort do you think actually translates, in any way, to an increased presence on the Davion/Kurita border when there's not an unofficial ceasefire?

So you've been told, repeatedly, what Davion wants. The huge flaws in your assumptions have been pointed out, repeatedly. You can go back on the Davion board and look at what people were talking about from day 1. Fighting the Clans at Luthien. You can make the leap of logic and recognize that the Davion/Steiner alliance has a lot in common with the Marik/Kurita alliance in terms of how your support on their northern border affects the Davion/Kurita border and how any Davion support on the Steiner border affects the Marik/Steiner border. How about you go back through your own forums and look at the Steiner posts about fighting Marik, who made them and what merc group they were and see how that timeline (when they are in Steiner) relates to the Steiner/Marik war if you want to know why you periodically get your asses handed to you by Steiner.

Yet none of that interests you because it doesn't support your otherwise baseless assumptions. You've got some bad ideas and simply ignore whatever doesn't agree with them. I actually do know what my motivations as a Davion pilot are. I talk to other Davion pilots all the time; coincidentally we're in the same faction and drop together. I'm comfortable I have a better feel for what Davion pilots, in general, want than you do.

Going to have to agree to let this one go I guess. I've told you, repeatedly, what Davion wants and what its general goals are. I've told you how Davion/Steiner support works and even related it to the very similar Marik/Kurita alliance. I've told you, repeatedly, what benefits are in that for Marik. None of it is what you want to hear though so you ignore it or don't believe it. You want a perpetual war with Davion; you don't want to look at the long view and see that Davion is overall in a better position than Marik (Liao won't last forever, Steiner will periodically get much stronger than Marik and get aggressive, Davion will periodically be in significantly better numbers, etc) and if a flat condition of our getting what we do want - a fight with the Clans on our own border - involves having to 'beat' Marik then, well, that should probably be what we look at. Good job on that. You're so obstinate with trying to create a situation that doesn't exist that you may, in fact, force it into being.

[IraqiWalker]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

We told you what we want. Repeatedly. In fact it's stated all over by Davion pilots since CW started. It's not some unified goal we voted on or was handed down by a grand council of UBER L33TZ; just in general we want to fight Dracs (want them to be a good fight though) and we want to have a Clan border to fight on of our own.

We drop on Steiner when nothing else is going on. We can see your borders too you know - it's all dead save the Clan fronts and we drop there pugging sometimes. We drop on FRR and Kurita sometimes too, depending on where the action is. If Davion pilots dropping on the Steiner/Clan border actually resulted in Steiner pilots shifting swiftly and efficiently to attack on other fronts.... it'd be a completely different game. Love Steiner, love the peeps there, they're great allies and we appreciate the alliance we've got with them. I'm sure you say the same about Liao. How much time does Marik spend on the Kurita/CSJ border though? How much of that effort do you think actually translates, in any way, to an increased presence on the Davion/Kurita border when there's not an unofficial ceasefire?

So you've been told, repeatedly, what Davion wants. The huge flaws in your assumptions have been pointed out, repeatedly. You can go back on the Davion board and look at what people were talking about from day 1. Fighting the Clans at Luthien. You can make the leap of logic and recognize that the Davion/Steiner alliance has a lot in common with the Marik/Kurita alliance in terms of how your support on their northern border affects the Davion/Kurita border and how any Davion support on the Steiner border affects the Marik/Steiner border. How about you go back through your own forums and look at the Steiner posts about fighting Marik, who made them and what merc group they were and see how that timeline (when they are in Steiner) relates to the Steiner/Marik war if you want to know why you periodically get your asses handed to you by Steiner.

Yet none of that interests you because it doesn't support your otherwise baseless assumptions. You've got some bad ideas and simply ignore whatever doesn't agree with them. I actually do know what my motivations as a Davion pilot are. I talk to other Davion pilots all the time; coincidentally we're in the same faction and drop together. I'm comfortable I have a better feel for what Davion pilots, in general, want than you do.

Going to have to agree to let this one go I guess. I've told you, repeatedly, what Davion wants and what its general goals are. I've told you how Davion/Steiner support works and even related it to the very similar Marik/Kurita alliance. I've told you, repeatedly, what benefits are in that for Marik. None of it is what you want to hear though so you ignore it or don't believe it. You want a perpetual war with Davion; you don't want to look at the long view and see that Davion is overall in a better position than Marik (Liao won't last forever, Steiner will periodically get much stronger than Marik and get aggressive, Davion will periodically be in significantly better numbers, etc) and if a flat condition of our getting what we do want - a fight with the Clans on our own border - involves having to 'beat' Marik then, well, that should probably be what we look at. Good job on that. You're so obstinate with trying to create a situation that doesn't exist that you may, in fact, force it into being.

While I can understand your words, and feelings. I'm gonna have to say that HE doesn't speak for all of Marik, and a spat with one or two or even a dozen Marik pilots shouldn't translate into hostile actions and opinions against the faction itself.

Molossian always had a big chip against Davion for some reason, not sure if it's because of lore or what, but it's there. So do keep that in mind.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

You have made very persuasive arguments on why we should go all out on your ally and carve through them like a turkey to get to the Clans. With allies like you, who needs enemies?

If there was another way, we would take it. But then it would not be BT. And if people are already tired of fighting the same factions, then CW is doomed.

[Davers]

IraqiWalker, on 22 January 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

While I can understand your words, and feelings. I'm gonna have to say that HE doesn't speak for all of Marik, and a spat with one or two or even a dozen Marik pilots shouldn't translate into hostile actions and opinions against the faction itself.

Molossian always had a big chip against Davion for some reason, not sure if it's because of lore or what, but it's there. So do keep that in mind.

A Davion killed his kitten with a notebook. It's all part of his convoluted backstory. In the end it turns out he is Hanse Davions's son.

[MischiefSC]

IraqiWalker, on 22 January 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

While I can understand your words, and feelings. I'm gonna have to say that HE doesn't speak for all of Marik, and a spat with one or two or even a dozen Marik pilots shouldn't translate into hostile actions and opinions against the faction itself.

Molossian always had a big chip against Davion for some reason, not sure if it's because of lore or what, but it's there. So do keep that in mind.

totally on board. I <3 me some Mariks as a given rule, however he's not alone in his opinions and so think of it more as arguing against the poor logic of why Marik and Davion shouldn't look at options for a quiet border so much as arguing against a person or faction.

Though it's not unreasonable to say that if a neighbor (doesn't matter who or which) is dead set on no peace, isn't it a bit crazy to not consider serious steps? Liao is an example. Anyone with Clans on their border - Kurita has better odds of a peaceful relationship with Davion than they do CSJ, wacky as it sounds they wouldn't be bad off coming to an agreement with us if it gets Davion taking heat from CSJ from them.

[IraqiWalker]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2015 - 10:24 PM, said:

totally on board. I <3 me some Mariks as a given rule, however he's not alone in his opinions and so think of it more as arguing against the poor logic of why Marik and Davion shouldn't look at options for a quiet border so much as arguing against a person or faction.

Though it's not unreasonable to say that if a neighbor (doesn't matter who or which) is dead set on no peace, isn't it a bit crazy to not consider serious steps? Liao is an example. Anyone with Clans on their border - Kurita has better odds of a peaceful relationship with Davion than they do CSJ, wacky as it sounds they wouldn't be bad off coming to an agreement with us if it gets Davion taking heat from CSJ from them.

I we can organize some kind of a Faction wide drop, where we pile on a lot of our forces on the Kurita border, while Kurita dumps all of theirs onto offense, I think we can have some fun, and make sure that those Jags don't encircle Luthien.

[Grynos]

Well as far as the clans coming down to meet Davion . With ACES, 228, and whomever else is in Clan Ghost Bear now.... With Kurita being bombarded by them, I'm sure you are going to get your chance to fight clans on Davion soil.....

Just be careful for what you wish for... You might just get it......

Good job Marik taking another planet btw... The map could be changing with ACES up in clan territory....

[Davers]

Grynos, on 22 January 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

Well as far as the clans coming down to meet Davion . With ACES, 228, and whomever else is in Clan Ghost Bear now.... With Kurita being bombarded by them, I'm sure you are going to get your chance to fight clans on Davion soil.....

Just be careful for what you wish for... You might just get it......

Good job Marik taking another planet btw... The map could be changing with ACES up in clan territory....

ACES left? I always thought of them as a Davion unit.

[Grynos]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

The above issues make it difficult to motivate groups to go drop on Clan border.

So if there are people dropping against Davion, putting Davion planets at risk, I should ignore than and go drop against the Clans or else I'm being 'greedy'? How about the complete inability to see my time spent pugging on the Clan border translate to more people from that faction attacking the Clans to capitalize on it? It's not greedy to want your effort to translate into something of value. If I put a Davion 12man together and pugged the Steiner border tonight I have no reason to believe that will equate to 12 Steiner players going on offense against CJF. That bit about terrible pugs on the Clan border? It makes being a solid unit there almost pointless.

So exactly how many sacrifices does Liao make on behalf of, say, FRR? Amazingly enough we do want our time and energy to be largely beneficial to our group. So does every other faction, Liao included. Don't be disingenuous. Wanting your faction to do well isn't greedy. We send more players and units to the Clan border than any other southern IS faction by a huge margin. We often have more players on the Clan borders than the faction we're pugging for.

Tried to set up a deal with Marik to sync-drop with Davion teams to fill 12mans on the Clan border. Why don't you pester them to accept that. How about you declare a night every week where you send 2 or 3 12mans from Liao to the Kurita border instead of attacking Davion or defending your own planets. Make the suggestion to your faction, let me know how it goes.

Everyone knows that Davion has a higher population than Liao during NA time zones .. EVERYONE... That is no big surprise to anyone.... Since the switch to three time zones, I think that people of LIao that are on NA time zones, spend all that time defending the Davion onslaught, that not one of you denies...... We were not attacking planets you have, we were defending planets that you are trying to take....

But yet again, it comes down to differences of opinion.. But that's ok,, In the near future , clan ghost bear will be right on your doorstep .. And seeing as Davions want to bury Liao into the ground, we will remember. Perhaps Liao could benefit from the clans reaching Davion soil after all...

Davers, on 22 January 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

ACES left? I always thought of them as a Davion unit.

Lol I guess the NGNG round table meeting had some behind the scenes dealings... I'm almost positive they will return to Davion though.. They probably just want to use the clan mechs like other units..

[Davers]

Grynos, on 23 January 2015 - 12:08 AM, said:

Everyone knows that Davion has a higher population than Liao during NA time zones .. EVERYONE... That is no big surprise to anyone.... Since the switch to three time zones, I think that people of LIao that are on NA time zones, spend all that time defending the Davion onslaught, that not one of you denies...... We were not attacking planets you have, we were defending planets that you are trying to take....

But yet again, it comes down to differences of opinion.. But that's ok,, In the near future , clan ghost bear will be right on your doorstep .. And seeing as Davions want to bury Liao into the ground, we will remember. Perhaps Liao could benefit from the clans reaching Davion soil after all...

The Clans reaching Davion soil is not a question of 'if' than of 'when'. Unless all the merc units switch sides and kick the Clans back to their starting worlds again.

[Kjudoon]

So essentially Marik is going to have to contend with aggressive and hostile neighbors whether they drive IS mechs or clan mechs.

Why do I want to participate in anything clan till forced to?

[IraqiWalker]

Grynos, on 22 January 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

Well as far as the clans coming down to meet Davion . With ACES, 228, and whomever else is in Clan Ghost Bear now.... With Kurita being bombarded by them, I'm sure you are going to get your chance to fight clans on Davion soil.....

Just be careful for what you wish for... You might just get it......

Good job Marik taking another planet btw... The map could be changing with ACES up in clan territory....

I don't think you understand what we said. None of us said we want to fight them on Davion soil (if we are, then we have already suffered more losses than necessary). No, we said have a border with them. Our general policy in Davion has been to push our borders out to make sure that our planets don't get hit, and the fighting is done beyond our soil.

Grynos, on 23 January 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

Everyone knows that Davion has a higher population than Liao during NA time zones .. EVERYONE... That is no big surprise to anyone.... Since the switch to three time zones, I think that people of LIao that are on NA time zones, spend all that time defending the Davion onslaught, that not one of you denies...... We were not attacking planets you have, we were defending planets that you are trying to take....

Well, maybe now the "onslaught" of the 30 or so Davion players running up the Liao border will slow down. Our general just issued an order to our entire RCT to cease operations against Liao. Not sure if a cease-fire has been reached or what. Also, I don't know about other units in the AFFS, all I know is that my unit has these orders.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 January 2015 - 12:48 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Grynos, on 23 January 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

Everyone knows that Davion has a higher population than Liao during NA time zones .. EVERYONE... That is no big surprise to anyone.... Since the switch to three time zones, I think that people of LIao that are on NA time zones, spend all that time defending the Davion onslaught, that not one of you denies...... We were not attacking planets you have, we were defending planets that you are trying to take....

But yet again, it comes down to differences of opinion.. But that's ok,, In the near future , clan ghost bear will be right on your doorstep .. And seeing as Davions want to bury Liao into the ground, we will remember. Perhaps Liao could benefit from the clans reaching Davion soil after all...



Lol I guess the NGNG round table meeting had some behind the scenes dealings... I'm almost positive they will return to Davion though.. They probably just want to use the clan mechs like other units..

A Clan border will make a huge boost to Davion population. The lack of a Clan border is the biggest thing working against Davion for recruiting more mercs. Otherwise we actually have a lot to offer.

A well organized and very supportive faction is nothing to sneeze at. I hope no unit would complain about being able to spend 3 minutes on a unified TS channel, saying what they plan on doing for the day and what help they would love to have and know that it'll get done instead of them spending energy to attack and finding nobody was watching the back door, or that they queue up on a front and suddenly a bunch of people pile on the same one and they're waiting in a 60+ vs 12 for turret stomps. We're always happy to support each other. Hopefully they'll do the same in return for other units but I've never seen anyone hold something like that over anyones head.

Right now though what we've got to offer is Liao and Marik fights. If that's not what a merc unit wants Davion is not the place to go. In terms of support though? We love our mercs and are *happy* to support them and work with them. They're welcome in the faction chat, their input is as valued as any other and as a given rule most of us just tend to follow whoever has the biggest presence. We're big on coordination and if they are willing to share what tactics they prefer most of us who pug are happy to adjust our drop decks to suit and when we pug with them we are happy to try and plug in with them. Pugged a great match earlier today with another unit; saw who was in channel on TS and tweaked my deck to match how they like to roll before I even queued up and said hello.

I'm not sure a CSJ border for Davion is going to be a good thing for any hostiles on our border - sure, it'll draw our attention but it'll also likely draw more units. Depending on who is with CSJ at the time and who likes to fight them I don't think it's unreasonable to say we'll pick up more new units than 1 extra border (especially if we have some sort of CF or NAP with Kurita to go with it) is going to use on its own. As Marik learned with 228 and Steiner; most the best merc units take being good mercs seriously and do rock solid work for their employer. Ask FRR how they like the merc influx and what it's done for their borders.

No, a CSJ border isn't a double-edged sword for Davion I don't think. It's the chance to really come into our own, that's probably why we're all looking forward to it.

Edited by MischiefSC, 23 January 2015 - 02:39 AM.

[Molossian Dog]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

We told you what we want. ...

Such a beautiful wall of text, Dave.

Are you willfully ignoring that I wondered "what you guys want" in regards to your outrage and crying about everyone being paranoid about you. It is even in the next sentence. In a paragraph on its own. You could have saved yourself some time and effort. But you chose to concentrate on one sentence out of context and paragraph to rage.
I was wondering about your outrage. Not your goals. Is that clear enough? Or do you prefer to play obtuse?

Getting semantical doesn´t let you look good.
What is it you love to say? Pump your breaks, kid.

--------------

What you want strategically I know. And don´t care.

I am not here to convince you. Why should I?

I am here to point out to my own faction members why a NAP or alliance with you guys would be bad for us.
And you Daves were quite helpful in that regard.

--------------

The implications about my character, your speculations about chips on my shoulder...well.
I might border on getting repetetive, but...

*shrug* Whatevs, Dave.

[MischiefSC]

Molossian Dog, on 23 January 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

Such a beautiful wall of text, Dave.

Are you willfully ignoring that I wondered "what you guys want" in regards to your outrage and crying about everyone being paranoid about you. It is even in the next sentence. In a paragraph on its own. You could have saved yourself some time and effort. But you chose to concentrate on one sentence out of context and paragraph to rage.
I was wondering about your outrage. Not your goals. Is that clear enough? Or do you prefer to play obtuse?

Getting semantical doesn´t let you look good.
What is it you love to say? Pump your breaks, kid.

--------------

What you want strategically I know. And don´t care.

I am not here to convince you. Why should I?

I am here to point out to my own faction members why a NAP or alliance with you guys would be bad for us.
And you Daves were quite helpful in that regard.

--------------

The implications about my character, your speculations about chips on my shoulder...well.
I might border on getting repetetive, but...

*shrug* Whatevs, Dave.

Okay Marky? hard not to be dismissive. It's all been explained, it's just not agreeing with what you want, so you're ignoring it. In the long run a Marik/Davion conflict favors Davion. Sooner or later Liao will back up and Steiner will step up. I don't foresee a future where either Liao or Kurita are going to become huge powerhouses with resources to throw at Davion. As both decline, Davion has more resources to point at Marik. You may see that start to happen already. Steiner will periodically explode with additional high-end units who are happy to come down south.

Your advice for your house is based on bad assumptions and completely ignoring both historical behavior of all your neighbors (Davion included) and not to difficult predictions on where things are going. That you 'don't care about what Davion wants' means you don't even grasp the basics of gauging the value of alliances or long-term results. If you don't know what someone wants you can't gauge their motivations and how they affect you.

Not really arguing with you, just pointing out why the position you are taking and the arguments you're making are not just wrong but facepalm.gif sort of wrong. The only real questions is if you're unwilling to look realistically at the facts of where things have been and where they are going or are unable to.

[Davers]

MischiefSC, on 23 January 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

Okay Marky? hard not to be dismissive. It's all been explained, it's just not agreeing with what you want, so you're ignoring it. In the long run a Marik/Davion conflict favors Davion. Sooner or later Liao will back up and Steiner will step up. I don't foresee a future where either Liao or Kurita are going to become huge powerhouses with resources to throw at Davion. As both decline, Davion has more resources to point at Marik. You may see that start to happen already. Steiner will periodically explode with additional high-end units who are happy to come down south.

Your advice for your house is based on bad assumptions and completely ignoring both historical behavior of all your neighbors (Davion included) and not to difficult predictions on where things are going. That you 'don't care about what Davion wants' means you don't even grasp the basics of gauging the value of alliances or long-term results. If you don't know what someone wants you can't gauge their motivations and how they affect you.

Not really arguing with you, just pointing out why the position you are taking and the arguments you're making are not just wrong but facepalm.gif sort of wrong. The only real questions is if you're unwilling to look realistically at the facts of where things have been and where they are going or are unable to.

What you are saying is probably true. Maybe CGB would be willing to accept House Marik as Bondsmen?

[Gorgo7]

IraqiWalker, on 22 January 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Never said it's your fault that you're dying. From my experience, in a conflict someone usually is. However, when we approached the entire Inner Sphere about a cease fire and we got an almost unanimous okay. Liao was the only one that actually queued up in large numbers to invade our borders. Someone more knowledgeable than me can speak about the numbers and the dialogue up top on the command level. I'm just a grunt on the ground, and I queued up for the defense.

There is no need to apologize to me.
Grynos is the one you called a liar. Apologize to him.

Salute.

[MischiefSC]

Davers, on 23 January 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

What you are saying is probably true. Maybe CGB would be willing to accept House Marik as Bondsmen?

Pfft. I know Davion would

CGB has no sense of humor. They wouldn't <3 you like we do.

The Davion approach to Marik reminds me of a Henry VIII quote about Calais; he didn't invade France because he hated France. He loved France. He loved France so much he was unwilling to part with a single stone of it.

[IraqiWalker]

Gorgo7, on 23 January 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

There is no need to apologize to me.
Grynos is the one you called a liar. Apologize to him.

Salute.

I wasn't apologizing, just clarifying. Liao is not only defending it's planets, it has attacked Davion (in fact, you still own one or two of our planets), and the one time the Capellan Confederation had a chance to garner good will -the holiday truce-, they instead tried to stage an invasion, taking advantage from the truce.

Grynos phrased his post in a way that made it seem like Davion only cared about itself, while the other houses, liao included, cared about ALL the IS houses. That's the lie.