70 replies to this topic

[TygerLily]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 January 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

This depends on if you willing to completely ignore the exaggerations. Because the statement is exaggerated does not make it completely wrong.

If I say "What a F*ing mess!" when I spill a cup of pop. I'm exaggerating, but it is still a mess!

I did say "undercuts" not "completely negates." I went on in an edit to evaluate the maths showing I took his comments about the validity of the stat seriously.

Joseph Mallan, on 16 January 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

Also a factor of How many launches a group has. the Stats are not Completely accurate to the affect Groups have. Cause what the numbers don't show, Is how long the Groups are in TeamSpeak discussing builds, BSing, Waiting for Billy/Billie to get back from a Bio break or putting his/her child to bed/fed or a smoke break. Solo players don;t have to wait for ONE person to drop. Groups of any size do. The you also have the fact that Groups will have players ask, "Hold on. I'm going to buy a Griffin." Then wait while that Mech is bought, reconfigured, Reconfigured again cause he didn't like the look of the load out.

True but IMO that's all anecdotal. Solo players also take smoke breaks, buy new mechs...they even have the freedom to waste time tweaking builds, changing mechs/modules/engines between games. I think an argument could even be made that group games are faster because they are more efficient in their play (focusing fire, etc.) and thus end games faster. We could debate the intricacies of our hypothetical scenarios forever...

Regardless of all these objections to the stat, the only reason I appealed to is was because it was an official source that seemed to say that the majority play solo. I built my idea around the assumption that that was accurate.

You and I have been playing this for a long time...what is your opinion? I wouldn't find it hard to believe that the majority of players primarily drop alone.
____________________________________________________________________________________

Anyway, I think people are missing the forest for the trees...I was hoping people would comment on the idea of having Assault, Skirmish, and Conquest provide "Campaign Points" to a Faction via solo or group play by their faction members. The Invasion Mode would be an added mode for the solo queue mainly so that it had more exposure and due to the less coordinated nature of the solo queue would be more fun for them. These solo Invasion Mode games DO NOT capture or defend planets...they only rack up CP.

Campaign Points would go in to a universal pool that high ranking Loyalist players could access for their Faction to declare attacks in the CW map (launching Invasion for groups of players).

The "Campaign Points" idea could also just disappear and instead your winnings at the end of a match would add some % to a Factions GDP or some such. Attacks could be bought with billions of cbills rather than Campaign Points (to reduce confusion between them and Loyalty Points, XP, GXP, etc. etc.)

CP might also be spent to grant temporary buff your planet's defenses or objective health, temporary tonnage buffs, etc. Even spent to activate community wide flash sales and stuff.

Solo players under this scheme play the roll of giving your faction the ability to make attacks, buffs, etc. Groups are the ones who go in to CW and move the borders when attacks are made.

Edited by TygerLily, 16 January 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

Even given the widely debated stat, I was, and still am against the idea of splitting the queues in the first place and my reasons have not changed. Primarily, it was because it gave immediate advantage to people who did not need it, namely, the elite solo players and the large and/or competitive groups while shafting any new or casual player that dared to try playing with a friend. Well, Check on that one.

Second was, it is functionally impossible to create a solo queue with faction matching, let alone one that allows you to choose theatre. It requires too many player pools, two for each faction and worst of all it puts too much power to influence the matchmaker in the hands of the player leading to massive exploitability.

Your solo CW would last approximately three seconds. Incidentally, most syncsers use a three second count down Now, with the mixed clan/house solo queue, there are four main reasons why you do not see sync dropping. 1) its unreliable 2) if it works your buddy has 50/50 chance of being on the other team and having someone on the other team who knows your build and strats is not conducive to winning 3) it slows your rate of play down to that of a group player, making it no good for grinding C-bills and 4) There is just no point.

Faction matching removes three of these drawbacks and significantly reduces another. It's all fine well saying “our group would resort to such dishonourable tactics” but the first house or clan to start doing it in any significant number would just ride roughshod over the entire galaxy and the only thing that would stop them is their opponents doing the same thing.

This is the reason CW did not launch with a solo mode, let alone a matchmaker that took any consideration of group size, its simply because they can't do it. The only way out of this is to revisit an old issue and use in-game features to narrow the gap between solo, small group and large group players. Until then, CW cannot become the over-arching meta-game that it should be, and will continue to be an underdeveloped bolt on for the benefit of competitive units.

[Joseph Mallan]

TygerLily, on 16 January 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

I did say "undercuts" not "completely negates." I went on in an edit to evaluate the maths showing I took his comments about the validity of the stat seriously.



True but IMO that's all anecdotal. Solo players also take smoke breaks, buy new mechs...they even have the freedom to waste time tweaking builds, changing mechs/modules/engines between games. I think an argument could even be made that group games are faster because they are more efficient in their play (focusing fire, etc.) and thus end games faster.

True but that one person does not stop up to 11 other players from individually hitting launch. I know when I am dropping in group with the Law, when On person goes BRB, it is time for others to do the same. It takes an 8 man more time to get back to the game than 8 individuals.

And yes I agree with the efficiency theory you posed.

[TygerLily]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 January 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

True but that one person does not stop up to 11 other players from individually hitting launch. I know when I am dropping in group with the Law, when On person goes BRB, it is time for others to do the same. It takes an 8 man more time to get back to the game than 8 individuals.

And yes I agree with the efficiency theory you posed.

Poke! I added some more to that response. xD

Boris The Spider, on 16 January 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Even given the widely debated stat, I was, and still am against the idea of splitting the queues in the first place and my reasons have not changed. Primarily, it was because it gave immediate advantage to people who did not need it, namely, the elite solo players and the large and/or competitive groups while shafting any new or casual player that dared to try playing with a friend. Well, Check on that one.

Second was, it is functionally impossible to create a solo queue with faction matching, let alone one that allows you to choose theatre. It requires too many player pools, two for each faction and worst of all it puts too much power to influence the matchmaker in the hands of the player leading to massive exploitability.

Your solo CW would last approximately three seconds. Incidentally, most syncsers use a three second count down Now, with the mixed clan/house solo queue, there are four main reasons why you do not see sync dropping. 1) its unreliable 2) if it works your buddy has 50/50 chance of being on the other team and having someone on the other team who knows your build and strats is not conducive to winning 3) it slows your rate of play down to that of a group player, making it no good for grinding C-bills and 4) There is just no point.

Faction matching removes three of these drawbacks and significantly reduces another. It's all fine well saying “our group would resort to such dishonourable tactics” but the first house or clan to start doing it in any significant number would just ride roughshod over the entire galaxy and the only thing that would stop them is their opponents doing the same thing.

This is the reason CW did not launch with a solo mode, let alone a matchmaker that took any consideration of group size, its simply because they can't do it. The only way out of this is to revisit an old issue and use in-game features to narrow the gap between solo, small group and large group players. Until then, CW cannot become the over-arching meta-game that it should be, and will continue to be an underdeveloped bolt on for the benefit of competitive units.

I think you are adding a few things I did not propose.

First, I don't think it would split any queues as I'm only suggesting that Invasion be a mode offered in the solo queue.

Second, I am not suggesting that Invasion mode, for solo players only, move the map in any way - I suggested that play there grant "Campaign Points" which are used to open up attacks for groups on the CW map which DO move borders.

Third, you make a good point about smaller pools of faction players making it easier to land a sync drop. However, if Invasion were put in the solo queue then I think a lot more would play it, increasing the pools for the faction and thus making sync dropping less effective. Again, I propose making solo Invasion mode NOT affect the map at large...only grant a faction the resources to make attacks. THEN in the CW tab, groups can go in and play Invasion to capture or defend planets. Therefore, groups are the ones who move the map, solo players just enable these games.

Edited by TygerLily, 16 January 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Boris The Spider]

Even if it doesn’t affect the map directly, you still make sync dropping a profitable venture as soon as you put faction matching in. Really, PGI needed to fix this issue many moons ago. Personally, I would really like all game modes/and future modes included, CW shouldn’t just be a game mode, it should have been the meta-game and until they properly address the solo/small group/large group issues it can't be.

[Roadbeer]

The point I'm trying to make is, conditions at the time the 84% was stated, like the conditions in the game now give a false positive to the supposition that the game population is, on the whole, solo players.

Conditions last year prevented people from making groups greater than four and less than 12. So, in order to get more than 4 of your teammates in a group, the majority of the group would be forced to solo sync dropping. You had a greater chance of getting a large group if you had a group of 4 and 7 solos (if you couldn't make 12), this would result in greater than average chances of having 6-8 people on TS into the same side with the rest usually ending up on the OP4. Think about that for a second. if the 4 counted as one Launch and was 4% of the population, the other 7, who would have still been in the group now count as 7 solo launches. Not saying that was always the case, but if you average that out among all the group stats, it seems (strictly cocktail napkin math here) that it would have been closer to 50/50, given the number of units currently in existence.
You also have to count for things like Marik Monday Madness (and things that other groups were doing to entertain themselves) where 150 people would "chaos drop", all solo, pressing launch simultaneously just as something fun to do.

That was then...

If you were to take the stats now, you would also show a high level of solo population. Marik figured out early, and other factions/groups are doing it now as well, that if you can't get a full 12, it is best to break the groups apart and solo "sync drop". This helps minimize queue times as it's easier for the MM to tetris together a bunch of solos, over tetrising the infinite variety of small and large groups.

Since Closed BETA, when they took out the ability to form groups of any size, PGI has been operating with bad statistics and building their own confirmation bias. They have built the game thinking that solos were the predominant gaming block, when they have repeatedly gone out of their way to make forming groups as problematic as possible.

Until Faction Grouping is put in, and units on the various faction VoIPs are able to group with the solos on the same VoIPs, when unable to make 12 of their own, there will be incomplete statistics about which type of player (solo/group) is the majority of the MWO population.

[Orbit Rain]

Saturday afternoon, 2pm CST, here is the population playing CW in the DC faction:



The bigger point is how can PGI get a solo-queuing population into CW and have them enjoy it, and have an influence. Arguments about what percentages are what, isn't what this thread is (imho) about. You're side-tracking and being intellectually lazy, if you're going to stop reading, and not see the forest for the trees.

There are some large number of people solo-dropping atm, and some number of groups dropping atm, *not* in CW, for various reasons, whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that they aren't incented enough to drop in a CW match.

[Flaming oblivion]

One problem if your suggesting what I think you are.

The pugs don't want to be forced to run into 12 mans.

So cant happen.

[Yokaiko]

Orbit Rain, on 17 January 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Saturday afternoon, 2pm CST, here is the population playing CW in the DC faction:





The bigger point is how can PGI get a solo-queuing population into CW and have them enjoy it, and have an influence. Arguments about what percentages are what, isn't what this thread is (imho) about. You're side-tracking and being intellectually lazy, if you're going to stop reading, and not see the forest for the trees.

There are some large number of people solo-dropping atm, and some number of groups dropping atm, *not* in CW, for various reasons, whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that they aren't incented enough to drop in a CW match.

Yeah, CW doesn't make money solo.
The money is on defense.
Half the time you get counter attack
The wait times are terrible.

Assuming a "quick" 25 minute launch, then a 20 minute game, I could have done 4 or 5 pub launches and made more money, more xp and focused it all on one mech.

The is literally no incentive to solo drop CW, ever.

[Roadbeer]

Orbit Rain, on 17 January 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Saturday afternoon, 2pm CST, here is the population playing CW in the DC faction:



The bigger point is how can PGI get a solo-queuing population into CW and have them enjoy it, and have an influence. Arguments about what percentages are what, isn't what this thread is (imho) about. You're side-tracking and being intellectually lazy, if you're going to stop reading, and not see the forest for the trees.

There are some large number of people solo-dropping atm, and some number of groups dropping atm, *not* in CW, for various reasons, whatever the reasons, the bottom line is that they aren't incented enough to drop in a CW match.

You're 5 hours away from the battles actually "meaning" anything and wondering why the queues are empty?

The problem with CW (and a problem that is going to be somewhat alleviated in 3 short days) is that there is no incentive to play for 20 hours of the day. When all your work can be wiped out by a lull in the action and someone turret dropping your achievements away.

The reason nobody is playing outside the NA Prime Time is because there is no reason to. Its not a solo/group thing, its a regional thing.

[Kjudoon]

Not to mention the long long LONG waits to get into matches that could have earned them 200-400k in the PQs just in the wait times.

[Xetelian]

I'd love a skimish as a counter attack

[TygerLily]

Flaming oblivion, on 17 January 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

One problem if your suggesting what I think you are.

The pugs don't want to be forced to run into 12 mans.

So cant happen.

I think you misundertand as the idea is to bring Invasion in to the public queue as a regular mode. The teams would be composed of mixed solo players only. These matches don't move the map but grant your faction some resource to declare an attack on the map in CW. GROUPS can THEN go in and play Invasion which DO count towards captures or defences of a planet.

[Jon Gotham]

TygerLily, on 15 January 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

Regardless, the end point is that a majority of people solo drop. I don't find that hard to believe and therefore making things revolve more around the solo player experience isn't a wrong approach.

Trouble is, anything you suggest in that vein just encourages people to solo drop more. solo dropping on purpose in a multiplayer online game? Making it easier to solo isn't a good thing for a community driven game.....
We should be trying to encourage solo players to form up with other players, get on voip and start meeting other people if we can. Not making it even easier to deliberately avoid grouping with other players. That is very damaging to the community as a whole...
I've never been a fan of encouraging diminished involvement to be honest, though I agree something needs to be done but ....already to much has been done to cater/coddle solo only players.
Now with voip on the way, I'd vote for one queue only for everyone. CW could also lump everyone in the same, not give groups priority etc put each solo in the fist available slot, might speed things up a bit?

[TygerLily]

I should have started my OP with "IF it's the case that the majority of the community plays solo..."

Then maybe people would have commented on my idea rather losing their minds over the stats. Who cares; if the stat's given are true...then my idea has merit. If not, then it can disappear in the depths of this tiny corner of the internet.

Instead, I quote an official source and people dismiss it with anecdotes. Pardon me for going with the official source. But again, who cares. PGI knows how many play solo and how many don't. I wish people would have commented on the idea and not side tracked it because of chips on their shoulder...

If you think the stats are a lie, don't reply. If you think they are true, comment on the idea I proposed.

kamiko kross, on 18 January 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Trouble is, anything you suggest in that vein just encourages people to solo drop more. solo dropping on purpose in a multiplayer online game? Making it easier to solo isn't a good thing for a community driven game.....
We should be trying to encourage solo players to form up with other players, get on voip and start meeting other people if we can. Not making it even easier to deliberately avoid grouping with other players. That is very damaging to the community as a whole...
I've never been a fan of encouraging diminished involvement to be honest, though I agree something needs to be done but ....already to much has been done to cater/coddle solo only players.
Now with voip on the way, I'd vote for one queue only for everyone. CW could also lump everyone in the same, not give groups priority etc put each solo in the fist available slot, might speed things up a bit?

I feel it's the opposite. I think making solo players feel as if their actions matter for their Faction increases community. They would be dropping with only people from their faction all the time, they're more likely to friend them and drop together, IMO.

IF it's the case that most people play solo, regardless of your own opinion of how they should play, then the game should cater and coddle how the majority of players experience the game. They shouldn't be coerced in to playing due to artificial difficulties...that won't drive them to teams, it will drive them to quit.

It's easy to want one queue when you're on the PUG stomp side. Again, I'm ON A TEAM and I agree that it's the best way to play...

Edited by TygerLily, 19 January 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[Triordinant]

TygerLily, on 18 January 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

It's easy to want one queue when you're on the PUG stomp side.

Let's not forget that the reason we have a solo-only queue now is players were leaving the game in droves after being farmed by the big, organized, well-trained competitive groups so PGI had to find a way to stop them from preying on the solo players. One queue for all would simply drive people away again and hopefully PGI won't make the same mistake twice.

[Jon Gotham]

Triordinant, on 18 January 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Let's not forget that the reason we have a solo-only queue now is players were leaving the game in droves after being farmed by the big, organized, well-trained competitive groups so PGI had to find a way to stop them from preying on the solo players. One queue for all would simply drive people away again and hopefully PGI won't make the same mistake twice.

Really?
I thought if you had voip....it would level the playing field? Or is having friends now not allowed? /speechless

[Triordinant]

kamiko kross, on 18 January 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Really?
I thought if you had voip....it would level the playing field? Or is having friends now not allowed? /speechless

VOIP isn't going to help much because not all your PUG teammates will use it and some can't even understand English whereas the enemy 8 to 12-man are all on TS and they've trained together for months and have codenames for all the important places on all the maps so they don't have to use the Battle Grid.

It's not the comms. It's the fact that some groups have spent a lot of time and effort training and playing together until they're a well-oiled machine. There's nothing wrong with that, but well-oiled killing machines shouldn't be allowed to farm PUGs who've never played together before, have their comms muted or don't even speak the same language. Elites should only ever play against elites, never against random soloists.

[Kjudoon]

Triordinant, on 18 January 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

VOIP isn't going to help much because not all your PUG teammates will use it and some can't even understand English whereas the enemy 8 to 12-man are all on TS and they've trained together for months and have codenames for all the important places on all the maps so they don't have to use the Battle Grid.

It's not the comms. It's the fact that some groups have spent a lot of time and effort training and playing together until they're a well-oiled machine. There's nothing wrong with that, but well-oiled killing machines shouldn't be allowed to farm PUGs who've never played together before, have their comms muted or don't even speak the same language. Elites should only ever play against elites, never against random soloists.

Wait... wut???

VOIP isn't going to help? The feature screamed about by Solo Only Rambos as the magic cure-all for 16-20 months?!?!?

I'm sorry... that doesn't wash. Sounds like putting the excuse out there before anything happens so you can point and say 'see? We've been telling you this isn't what will help' after months and months and months of the contrary.

It's about getting an easy mode and blame other people for your own failings.

[Triordinant]

Kjudoon, on 18 January 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Wait... wut???

VOIP isn't going to help? The feature screamed about by Solo Only Rambos as the magic cure-all for 16-20 months?!?!?

I'm sorry... that doesn't wash. Sounds like putting the excuse out there before anything happens so you can point and say 'see? We've been telling you this isn't what will help' after months and months and months of the contrary.

It's about getting an easy mode and blame other people for your own failings.

I never asked for VOIP so don't lump me in with others. I also never said VOIP wouldn't help at all. What I did say was it will barely help random soloists fight against well-trained and organized competitive teams and therefore the solo-only queue should remain. PGI knows we'll just stop playing MWO if we have to play against elite teams and that's the bottom line.