71 replies to this topic

[happy mech]

make the hot mechs turn and move slower

example numbers:

• <50% heat - no penalty
  
• 50-60% - 10% penalty
  
• 60-70% - 25% penalty
  
• 70-80% - 40% penalty
  
• 80-90% - 60% penalty
  
• 90-100% - 85% penalty

this would mean you can either have the damage or the survivability (especially firestarter, thunderbolt (but tdr9s still needs a nerf), laser clans)
it also rewards more diverse loadouts (which i believe the battletech is about but do not quote me on this ) like srms and mgs for close range, acs for sustained damage, lasers for backup, ppcs for long range support (could even get more speed again maybe), lrms for critting, instead of one-trick boats
it also reduces ttk

[Lily from animove]

No, lol, this would create massive imbalance between ballistic builds and energyboats. with current 1.4 heatsinks instead 2.0, this is not a wokring thing.
clanlights are slow and run hot way faster than IS lights, it would again just punish the wrong mechs.

[GreyNovember]

How does this affect an Atlas, who carries an AC20, SRMs, and Medium Lasers?

[Lily from animove]

doesn't affect him slow + slow = slow

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 January 2015 - 05:31 AM.

[happy mech]

Lily from animove, on 12 January 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

No, lol, this would create massive imbalance between ballistic builds and energyboats. with current 1.4 heatsinks instead 2.0, this is not a wokring thing.
clanlights are slow and run hot way faster than IS lights, it would again just punish the wrong mechs.

1. it is the point to nerf energyboats of course (that means full ppcs or other nonsense with no backup small lasers)
2. the dps does not change, just how often the mech can alpha if you want to keep the mobility (every 5 seconds, instead of twice after 10 seconds, for example, same damage)
3. jenner, firestarter, locust, raven, they seem pretty hot

if the flamers are reworked (constant heat drain) they could even serve a purpose (for example 10 shs can feed 1 flamer on both sides, so with 10 dhs you can negate or fire 2 flamers, 3 flamers or anything (firing a weapon) will cause heat gain)
a pack of lights could bake a direwolf (90% heat movement penalty), as any 2+v1 would end, but they could also overheat (since 2 flamers + anything more will cause heat gain if do not have a lot of extra dhs)


atlas with ac20, srms, mls will be very slow if you go near max heat, but still can keep firing
ac20 is most heat efficient, but heavy and needs ammo, fire this first when engaged
srms are next weapon that is quite ok on heat, but heavier than lasers and also needs ammo, if ac20 is not overheating you then fire srms too
medium lasers for when you do not have ammo or reach, or only expose for a moment

same goes for all mechs

[Nightmare1]

Absolutely not. This would kill off Light Mechs and many Mediums which often run high heat curves because they can't equip enough heat sinks to counter them. It would also punish energy boats that are already at a significant disadvantage compared to ballistic or missile Mechs.

Heat's troublesome enough for most pilots as it is (particularly new ones). Let's not add another headache to the game. Instead, let's focus on CW, gamemodes, and new Mechs.

Edit: By the way, if you want people to take your proposal seriously, try using proper grammar. If you can't take the time, or are not invested enough, to put your best foot forward with your OP, then why should anyone take it seriously?

Edited by Nightmare1, 12 January 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

We'd need to adjust Heat Dissipation up before being able to add such penalties.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Understand how the game actually works before posting things like this. Simply untenable idea as originated.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

If they fix the dissipation Rates on heat sink. Then I would be all for this, and ammo explosions from heat.

But not until dissipation rates for heat sinks are brought up to parity with the ROF increases they made for this game.

[happy mech]

Nightmare1, on 12 January 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Absolutely not. This would kill off Light Mechs and many Mediums which often run high heat curves because they can't equip enough heat sinks to counter them. It would also punish energy boats that are already at a significant disadvantage compared to ballistic or missile Mechs.

Heat's troublesome enough for most pilots as it is (particularly new ones). Let's not add another headache to the game. Instead, let's focus on CW, gamemodes, and new Mechs.

Edit: By the way, if you want people to take your proposal seriously, try using proper grammar. If you can't take the time, or are not invested enough, to put your best foot forward with your OP, then why should anyone take it seriously?

it only punishes multiple alphas in a row, as then you cannot retreat so well, but it affects all mechs (you never got hot in a srm cent?)
it effectively makes the heat cap at 50% (example), with the option to go over in exchange for lower mobility
current system is you have cap at 100%, with the option to go over (override) which blows your mech

it is not a top priority, but the game could be more diverse, people would consider using mgs on their thunderbolts and battlemasters, utilizing some slots for srms, flamers if reworked

grammar? if i try to get some information through, cluttering it up with some polish text usually leads to people completely missing the point and responding to things not relevant to the subject, it is not some novel, but hopefully it is understandable
"make the hot mechs turn and move slower" this is what my idea is, so why write 3 paragraphs of fluff on it?

Praetor Knight, on 12 January 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

We'd need to adjust Heat Dissipation up before being able to add such penalties.

this does not affect heat dissipation, so the dps of the mech stays the same
it only affects heat cap (higher cap for slower movement), so multiple alphas in a row (the burst damage) are somewhat limited

Lukoi Banacek, on 12 January 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Understand how the game actually works before posting things like this. Simply untenable idea as originated.

really? did you even read it?

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 12 January 2015 - 07:49 PM, said:

If they fix the dissipation Rates on heat sink. Then I would be all for this, and ammo explosions from heat.

But not until dissipation rates for heat sinks are brought up to parity with the ROF increases they made for this game.

just try to imagine you would try to play at 50% heat max, it is like when you try to stay near 100% currently, the dissipation (= ROF effectively) is same so you can fire the same, you just cannot burst (or can but then move slower)

the ammo explosions from heat would be a great way to further balance ammo dependent cooler builds (but heavier) vs energy only builds (since some mechs have only energy)

[Nightmare1]

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

it only punishes multiple alphas in a row, as then you cannot retreat so well, but it affects all mechs (you never got hot in a srm cent?)

That's exactly my point; you cannot retreat as well and yes, Cents can run hot! What you are recommending is that Mechs with >50% heat begin losing their abilities to escape a combat situation. This is ludicrous. My Commandos and Firestarters often run a heat curve between 70% and 80%. If their speed and maneuverability were cut, then they would instantly become dead Mechs walking. Mediums like the Cent, Cicada, and Hunchback would also be drastically effected. The bottomline is that it would disproportionately affect Mechs on the lighter end of the weight spectrum compared to those on the heavier end. This is a problem when over 50% of the Mechs in play are already Heavies or Assaults.

Also, all of my Clan Mechs run high heat curves because of how PGI balanced them. A change to heat like yours is something of a nerf to Clan Mechs that would make them rather useless.

Finally, there already is a mechanic to punish multiple Alphas. It's called Ghost Heat. Alpha a couple times, and your Mech becomes very hot. Frankly, I don't see Alphas as much of a problem in this game. Players who use them frequently are not in control of themselves or the fight, and are vulnerable to attack. I tend to bait these pilots into firing too much, and then jump them when they overheat. While opening an attack with an Alpha is a good way to start off a fight, switching to chain fire allows for more precision, continued screen shake on your opponent (suppression), and increased firing time through lower heat generation. Every seasoned pilot knows this, which is why you don't see the good ones Alpha'ing like crazy.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

it effectively makes the heat cap at 50% (example), with the option to go over in exchange for lower mobility
current system is you have cap at 100%, with the option to go over (override) which blows your mech

Arbitrarily cutting the heat scale by half is ludicrous and as dumb as snake mittens.

Also, override does not blow up your Mech. Override with a significant heat spike kills your Mech. When used properly, Override can allow you to keep moving when your heat spikes above 100%, without destroying you. I've also been able to do it without damaging my Mech. It takes a fine touch, but it is possible.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

it is not a top priority, but the game could be more diverse, people would consider using mgs on their thunderbolts and battlemasters, utilizing some slots for srms, flamers if reworked

Flamers are dead right now.

MGs are actually used; I have three equipped on my BLR-1D actually, and I've seen some other builds on other Heavies and Assaults that make use of them. They are valuable for critting. That being said, making MGs a centerpiece in the arsenal of an Assault Mech is rather ridiculous; they are back up weapons and not show piece weapons.

...Not sure why you don't think SRMs are used; they appear frequently.

happy mech, on 13 January 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

grammar? if i try to get some information through, cluttering it up with some polish text usually leads to people completely missing the point and responding to things not relevant to the subject, it is not some novel, but hopefully it is understandable
"make the hot mechs turn and move slower" this is what my idea is, so why write 3 paragraphs of fluff on it?

Grammar isn't fluff. It's capitalizing your words and using proper English instead of writing like a texting teen. Fluff is literally fluff. When I advised you to use proper grammar, I wasn't necessarily telling you to reword your OP; just to use capitalization, clean spelling, and proper punctuation. Anyone who doesn't is, in my book, lazy or stupid and can't be taken seriously.

...And with that, I bid adieu. This thread is no longer worth my time.

[Lily from animove]

happy mech, on 12 January 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

1. it is the point to nerf energyboats of course (that means full ppcs or other nonsense with no backup small lasers)
2. the dps does not change, just how often the mech can alpha if you want to keep the mobility (every 5 seconds, instead of twice after 10 seconds, for example, same damage)
3. jenner, firestarter, locust, raven, they seem pretty hot

if the flamers are reworked (constant heat drain) they could even serve a purpose (for example 10 shs can feed 1 flamer on both sides, so with 10 dhs you can negate or fire 2 flamers, 3 flamers or anything (firing a weapon) will cause heat gain)
a pack of lights could bake a direwolf (90% heat movement penalty), as any 2+v1 would end, but they could also overheat (since 2 flamers + anything more will cause heat gain if do not have a lot of extra dhs)


atlas with ac20, srms, mls will be very slow if you go near max heat, but still can keep firing
ac20 is most heat efficient, but heavy and needs ammo, fire this first when engaged
srms are next weapon that is quite ok on heat, but heavier than lasers and also needs ammo, if ac20 is not overheating you then fire srms too
medium lasers for when you do not have ammo or reach, or only expose for a moment

same goes for all mechs

all this will cause is the gae of UAC 5's and gauss while all other mechs literally will disappear by not being able to sustain any kind of burst fire followed by some proper dps.

the game by being basically an first person shooter style already favours popping tactics to shoot and disappear, if now laserboats have to use continous fire tactics, they are going to be an obsolete and inferior loadout that no one needs or would use.

[Nightmare1]

Bingo!

[Ryokens leap]

I'm all for internal damage penalties for repeat shutdown offenders, not just overrides.

[Kalimaster]

I will put this as simply as I can. NO.

[VinJade]

from where I stand to help balance things out all of the range shell weapons that should have a min range on them, AC 2s, GRs, ect should be in place since the standard PPC has its min range still intact.

though the heat scale over all looks like it could work.
though annoying lights like a locust with twin Flamers could really ruin the day of any over heating mech such as those that use heat heavy weapons.

in the end though the idea is a nice one just would need a lot of work and balance problems would have to be tackled from energy to ballistic to try and prevent it from favoring one style or the other.

[happy mech]

Nightmare1, on 13 January 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

That's exactly my point; you cannot retreat as well and yes, Cents can run hot! What you are recommending is that Mechs with >50% heat begin losing their abilities to escape a combat situation. This is ludicrous. My Commandos and Firestarters often run a heat curve between 70% and 80%. If their speed and maneuverability were cut, then they would instantly become dead Mechs walking. Mediums like the Cent, Cicada, and Hunchback would also be drastically effected. The bottomline is that it would disproportionately affect Mechs on the lighter end of the weight spectrum compared to those on the heavier end. This is a problem when over 50% of the Mechs in play are already Heavies or Assaults.

from my experience with assaults (awesome, atlas, stalker), heavies (quickdraw, jagermech, ctf, cpt), they all run hot except jagermech with uac5+mg, hot because of high burst in short time
even from your example and my example, if you run the firestarter at 70-80% it would get 40% penalty, so move at 90 km/h, which is not that horrible

Nightmare1, on 13 January 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Also, all of my Clan Mechs run high heat curves because of how PGI balanced them. A change to heat like yours is something of a nerf to Clan Mechs that would make them rather useless.

it is a nerf to energy alphas (which many clan are built on because of superior range and no need for ammo), but you are saying that like the IS mechs do not use energy, they just do not have a weapon they can fire at 400 metres without a ghostheat so the damage and heat spike is not so high (2 ll compared to 6 cerml)
if you give IS quirks, you are nerfing clan mechs, which imbalances the system a lot more (counter one superpower with another, instead of toning it all down in general)

Nightmare1, on 13 January 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Finally, there already is a mechanic to punish multiple Alphas. It's called Ghost Heat. Alpha a couple times, and your Mech becomes very hot. Frankly, I don't see Alphas as much of a problem in this game. Players who use them frequently are not in control of themselves or the fight, and are vulnerable to attack. I tend to bait these pilots into firing too much, and then jump them when they overheat. While opening an attack with an Alpha is a good way to start off a fight, switching to chain fire allows for more precision, continued screen shake on your opponent (suppression), and increased firing time through lower heat generation. Every seasoned pilot knows this, which is why you don't see the good ones Alpha'ing like crazy.



Arbitrarily cutting the heat scale by half is ludicrous and as dumb as snake mittens.

Also, override does not blow up your Mech. Override with a significant heat spike kills your Mech. When used properly, Override can allow you to keep moving when your heat spikes above 100%, without destroying you. I've also been able to do it without damaging my Mech. It takes a fine touch, but it is possible.



Flamers are dead right now.

MGs are actually used; I have three equipped on my BLR-1D actually, and I've seen some other builds on other Heavies and Assaults that make use of them. They are valuable for critting. That being said, making MGs a centerpiece in the arsenal of an Assault Mech is rather ridiculous; they are back up weapons and not show piece weapons.

...Not sure why you don't think SRMs are used; they appear frequently.

ghost heat does help to spread alphas (ll, ppc), while totally nerfing chainfiring 2 groups or more
ok maybe i should talk about burst to name it properly, be it alpha or not
if flamers drain 1 heat from you and 1 (or less) heat from your enemy, people would use them i think, now they can either be abused or totally useless
machineguns should not be a main weapon of an assault, did i say that?

Nightmare1, on 13 January 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Grammar isn't fluff. It's capitalizing your words and using proper English instead of writing like a texting teen. Fluff is literally fluff. When I advised you to use proper grammar, I wasn't necessarily telling you to reword your OP; just to use capitalization, clean spelling, and proper punctuation. Anyone who doesn't is, in my book, lazy or stupid and can't be taken seriously.

...And with that, I bid adieu. This thread is no longer worth my time.

fair enough

Lily from animove, on 13 January 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

all this will cause is the gae of UAC 5's and gauss while all other mechs literally will disappear by not being able to sustain any kind of burst fire followed by some proper dps.

the game by being basically an first person shooter style already favours popping tactics to shoot and disappear, if now laserboats have to use continous fire tactics, they are going to be an obsolete and inferior loadout that no one needs or would use.

the gauss is a powerful weapon regarding heat, i suggest charging one gauss drains your resources, making your mech move/turn slower by some amount (20%? 40% for 2 gauss), making it more of a sniper weapon not so much for brawling/self defence

other than that, sustained dps will not change, yes burst will be limited as you said, to prevent pop and shoot, or pop and get blown off, hopefully providing more room for other tactics and builds
acs use continuous fire, it may be hard to fight it with pure energy with chainfire as it currently is, but the pure energy is quite overpowered now, especially in cw

VinJade, on 13 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

from where I stand to help balance things out all of the range shell weapons that should have a min range on them, AC 2s, GRs, ect should be in place since the standard PPC has its min range still intact.

though the heat scale over all looks like it could work.
though annoying lights like a locust with twin Flamers could really ruin the day of any over heating mech such as those that use heat heavy weapons.

in the end though the idea is a nice one just would need a lot of work and balance problems would have to be tackled from energy to ballistic to try and prevent it from favoring one style or the other.

i do not have experience with battletech prior to this game, sounds like the min range (or a progression of damage) could help to differentiate between acs and lasers more than just by how cool or heavy they are

yup the locust with twin flamers could keep a 10 dhs mech in check, though being only able to fire sparingly itself as well, or use mgs
(i did hear something about collisions coming back, this would make game even more broad)

indeed, it all comes down to balance, energy vs ballistic is the main issue here


i apologize for the long post

[VinJade]

well I do know one thing, whenever someone runs into me my leg does take damage or an atlas runs into me I suffer torso damage so I think its safe to say that collision damage is there, lol.

still balance needs to be dealt with so one does not favor the other.

[happy mech]

oh, sorry, i did mean knockdowns, or something like that

[Kaeb Odellas]

Lily from animove, on 12 January 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

No, lol, this would create massive imbalance between ballistic builds and energyboats. with current 1.4 heatsinks instead 2.0, this is not a wokring thing.
clanlights are slow and run hot way faster than IS lights, it would again just punish the wrong mechs.

Why not both? TruDubs and heat penalties?